I've annealed some rifle cases using a Bench Source annealer and have also used a handheld propane torch but wasn't overly impressed with either. I recently learned about Fluxeon's Induction Annealer (Annie) while looking at Giraud's website. He'll be offering an automatic case feeder model that interfaces with the Annie so I figured I'd start out using just the annealer and possibly add the case feeder later on. I like that the Annie annealer has a digital readout that controls the heat cycle time consistently. It's also available with a foot pedal which I ordered. I never liked the fact that it's hard to get a flame annealer back to a known setting. Anyway, I was curios if anyone has used one.
Anyone using a Fluxeon Induction Annealer?
- Thread starter MCMXI
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quartermaster
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I have never seen one but it looks interesting. I have the bench source and it works fine for my purposes.
New toys are always tempting. QM
New toys are always tempting. QM
I ordered one with the foot pedal and it should be here in 3 to 4 weeks. The company is in the process of moving to AZ and some parts were held up by the LA dock strike so this caused delays. I'm looking forward to trying it. I don't need to anneal a thousand cases at a time, not even a couple of hundred, so I might not need an automatic case feeder ... that's what I keep telling myself.
http://www.fluxeon.com/Annie.html
http://www.fluxeon.com/Annie.html
Reloadron
Contributing Member
No I don't have a Fluxeon's Induction Annealer but it got me to thinking. I was helping a guy out several weeks ago in an electronics type forum with an induction heating system. I must be getting slow on the uptake as the thought of annealing brass never crossed my mind. There really isn't a heck of a lot to the things. Maybe it will be a project to give some thought to. Can't hurt to toss the idea around and see what I can come up with. Heating brass should not require much power or a large induction coil.
Ron
Ron
Elkins45
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I think Doc Brown used one?
oldfortyfiveauto
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I talked to Doug Giraud at the Tulsa Gun show last month. He said if you can actually get one and it works it works great. Seems only 1 out 3 works out of the box and delivery is spotty at best.
Snyper
Member
I wouldn't buy one.
I used to build induction heating equipment, and the lifespans aren't that good.
The tiniest breakdown in the coils insulation will result in a catastrophic failure
We used design and build much of the equipment used in Olin's factories
I used to build induction heating equipment, and the lifespans aren't that good.
The tiniest breakdown in the coils insulation will result in a catastrophic failure
We used design and build much of the equipment used in Olin's factories
I will agree that the more common flame annealing systems that use gas as a heat source are probably a more robust choice but I figure that I'll try one and see how it goes. Maybe it has to go back a few times for repair, maybe I open it up once the warranty has expired and do my own repairs, or maybe it works for the next 10 years and all is good ... we'll have to see. My unit is supposed to ship this week or early next week.
I received a Fluxeon annealer late last week. Garett has been very good in getting back to me and keeping me informed as to the status of my order. I hope to provide some information shortly based on my experience using the annealer. The foot pedal I ordered is on backorder but it should be here soon. Here's what comes in the kit. The blue tubing is for the optional water cooled coil. You might notice a broken fitting that arrived that way. Garett has already shipped a replacement.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Looking forward to seeing how it works out for you. One of those things I am curious about.
Ron
Ron
I just did a quick test to make sure the unit works using the standard coil and tried annealing five once-fired .375 H&H cases. I set the timer to 1.7 seconds and quenched the case mouth immediately after removing from the unit. These cases weren't cleaned and I ran them through a neck sizing die after annealing. They sized very easily and more easily than non annealed cases. I'll order some 750F Tempilstik or Tempilaq this week. The Annie seems to be easy to use and works well but I'm sure I have much to learn.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Yeah, they look a little on the side of well done.
Like anything else I see a learning curve involved. Different coils and different times. On the bright side it works, made heat.
Ron
jmorris said:
Where has the zinc gone? It's hard to tell from a photo if the brass exceeded 850F. The photo below shows some factory Lapua .338 LM loads that have similar looking necks. Regardless, I simply wanted to check that the annealer works since it's not supposed to work out of the box.
Last post on this tonight. I annealed five .270 Win (2.2 sec) and five .375 H&H (1.6 sec) cases using nice shiny brass tumbled in stainless steel media. I've figured out that it's best to have the case mouth positioned slightly outside the pads to prevent overheating. Overall this Annie is easy and fun to use and likely produces better results using clean brass. With more experience and a temp stick I'm sure I can perfect this process.
jmorris
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Do you have a video? I would guess that they are glowing from the photos and you don't need or want that indicating paint will verify this when it arrives.
It is a combination of heat and time to anneal but if brass is glowing you are at or above 950F (zinc melts at 787F). Now you can go above 787 F with your application of heat and still have good results because of heat transfer but it needs to be a very short duration of time or the temp of the metal will catch up with the applied heat (if that makes sense). Kind of like exposing your skin to an open flame doesn't burn your hand like holding it there will.
Zinc has a melting point around 1200 F below copper and 413 F below brass (the mix of copper and zinc.
It is the first to leave the mix (boiling point of copper is 3000 F higher than Zinc).
You can see the difference using propane (not MAPP gas) and holding just copper in a flame, that will remain blue even when the copper is "red hot". Put brass in the same flame and when it gets hot enough to begin to burn off zinc the flame will change from blue to orange.
The photos you posted "look" pretty over done. You could test them against other cases to see if they have any "spring" left in them or if they are dead soft.
A brass case will actually spring back a bit when you deflect it (not talking about crushing it, just deform slightly). "Dead soft" or over done brass will take less force to deform and will not spring back.
It is a combination of heat and time to anneal but if brass is glowing you are at or above 950F (zinc melts at 787F). Now you can go above 787 F with your application of heat and still have good results because of heat transfer but it needs to be a very short duration of time or the temp of the metal will catch up with the applied heat (if that makes sense). Kind of like exposing your skin to an open flame doesn't burn your hand like holding it there will.
Zinc has a melting point around 1200 F below copper and 413 F below brass (the mix of copper and zinc.
It is the first to leave the mix (boiling point of copper is 3000 F higher than Zinc).
You can see the difference using propane (not MAPP gas) and holding just copper in a flame, that will remain blue even when the copper is "red hot". Put brass in the same flame and when it gets hot enough to begin to burn off zinc the flame will change from blue to orange.
The photos you posted "look" pretty over done. You could test them against other cases to see if they have any "spring" left in them or if they are dead soft.
A brass case will actually spring back a bit when you deflect it (not talking about crushing it, just deform slightly). "Dead soft" or over done brass will take less force to deform and will not spring back.
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I need one hand to hold the cartridge case and one to push the button so no chance of a video. Thanks for your input on this but according to the phase diagram below, cartridge brass (which is a solid solution) starts to liquefy at 900°C (1650°F). So how is the zinc melting at 787°F? It melts on its own at 787°F but not when it's in a solid solution with copper. I'm still curious as to where the zinc is supposed to go. The phase diagram indicates that if you heat cartridge brass above 1650°F it will start to melt becoming a complete liquid of copper and zinc once the temperature exceeds 1800°F.
Thanks for your input on this but according to the phase diagram below, cartridge brass (which is a solid solution) starts to liquefy at 900°C (1650°F). So how is the zinc melting at 787°F? It melts on its own at 787°F but not when it's in a solid solution with copper. I'm still curious as to where the zinc is supposed to go. The phase diagram indicates that if you heat cartridge brass above 1650°F it will start to melt becoming a complete liquid of copper and zinc once the temperature exceeds 1800°F.
gamestalker
member
I feel like I get pretty consistent results with a torch and drill. Haven't had any issues, so I don't really think I can justify the expense of such a system. They are pretty interesting and I'm sure very consistent, but I don't consider it a necessity by any stretch.
And it doesn't really take me that long to anneal with a torch and drill. A quick guess, I would say the time it takes to insert the case in the Lee shell holder, flame anneal, and drop in water is about 10 seconds, so that's quick enough for me anyway.
GS
And it doesn't really take me that long to anneal with a torch and drill. A quick guess, I would say the time it takes to insert the case in the Lee shell holder, flame anneal, and drop in water is about 10 seconds, so that's quick enough for me anyway.
GS
jmorris
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You can set the camera down and start it, anneal the case, then pick it back up to stop it.
Go down and read the optimal case temp part, might help.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
In he 1.7 seconds of heat input are the cases reaching glowing temperature?
This is an example of the flame change with too much heat.
This is the right time/temp.
In your photos 15, 18 and 19, did you use different work coils or are they different just by the depth you had them inserted into the coil?
Go down and read the optimal case temp part, might help.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
In he 1.7 seconds of heat input are the cases reaching glowing temperature?
This is an example of the flame change with too much heat.
This is the right time/temp.
In your photos 15, 18 and 19, did you use different work coils or are they different just by the depth you had them inserted into the coil?
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gamestalker said:
I've tried the Bench Source annealer that a friend has and was impressed by the results but didn't like the fact that it's hard to get back to the same settings quickly. Also the BS is large. The appeal of the Annie annealer is that there's only one variable to set, which is the timer, to get the same results and the unit is small.
jmorris said:
No.
jmorris said:
The photo in post 18 is new factory loaded ammunition from Remington using cases purchased from Lapua so those were annealed by Lapua. The difference between the .375 H&H cases shown in post 15 and 19 is that 15 was 1.7 seconds using dirty cases and 19 was 1.6 seconds using clean cases. The same coil was used for all annealing.
I've read the 6mmBR annealing article many times and that's why I've ordered Tempilstik to get a better idea of the temperature reached. I don't plan on doing any more annealing until the Tempilstik arrives.
jmorris
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If they didn't glow at any point you are good to go and it is just exposure when you took the photo, why I asked if you had a video.
Like these two photos of the same 2 cases just with different lighting.
I just have never seen "freckling" at the mouth like in photo 15 unless they have been at least up to glowing temp.
Interesting, what was the difference between the cases at the top of the photo vs the bottom? Seems like a large difference in the "heat effected zone" maybe 1/3 longer in the upper cases.
Is there a "cold spot" in the coil or were the cases not quite perpendicular/centered in the coil? Curious why the signs of annealing appear uneven.
Like these two photos of the same 2 cases just with different lighting.
I just have never seen "freckling" at the mouth like in photo 15 unless they have been at least up to glowing temp.
Interesting, what was the difference between the cases at the top of the photo vs the bottom? Seems like a large difference in the "heat effected zone" maybe 1/3 longer in the upper cases.
Is there a "cold spot" in the coil or were the cases not quite perpendicular/centered in the coil? Curious why the signs of annealing appear uneven.
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