Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Mag-change, Apr 1, 2014.
Pam. Light-generous spray, shake, size, tumble, prime, powder, bullet, done.
You are in for a new experience when you try LC 7.62 blinged with stainless steel media, especially using a small-base sizer. That appears to be the ultimate test and separates real lube from wannabes.
My sizer is fairly new, but I still started the process by a solvent cleaning to get any gum, wax, or oil out of it, before I tried sizing that brass.
I don't know what Redding lube is, but if it only works as well as Imperial, it won't make the cut on my blinged brass from hell. The water-based RCBS lube is a fairly new version of RCBS's lube pad lube. It's impressive stuff. I was getting ready to throw out my Thumlers!! I was also ready to throw out my Imperial, but then I can use it to lube pistol brass.
GW: what do you mean by Blinged , it sound like you are say you brass is supper shiny like hip-hop bling bling
my hardest brass to size is my 25WSSM , it need to be full sized, pushing back the shoulder .006, then small based sized from .559 back to.552 and the Redding lube works for that , Hoping the wax makes that job easier
No joke, ever sized 50 ?
Got a friend who uses "elbow grease"- and its friggin amazing stuff, lemme tell ya.
12 parts 99% ISO. 1 part liquid lanolin. You've tried the rest now try the best. One bottle will lube 200,000+ bottleneck cases.
that's pretty much what the Dillon spray is , works great but messy and takes more work to clean off
I put my home brew in a gallon zip lock bag and spray 2 shots in it with 100 308 cases, pore the cases in a bowl. The ISO evaporates in 90 seconds. I toss finished rounds in the tumbler for 10 minutes like I do with any other rounds I've done in the past and they are good as new. and I keep using the same gallon zip lock bag.
I hear a lot about sizing lubes, but not one mention of the importance of inside/outside neck lubrication with any of the variety of dry lubes that are available. Kits are available with various size brushes along with the media and holder, most use MICA as the dry lube. The kits are usually referred to as "Neck Dipper Kit", Lyman makes a good one. It sure makes that sizing plug easier to withdraw on the upstroke.
Sorry, GW Staar, if you are trying to tell everyone that Imperial Sizing Die Wax is no good, you are going to have a tough sell. It's a proven product. Machinegun fired 7.62x51 brass is tough to resize period - and trying to bring it back into spec is tough on lube, press, and patience.
I had heard that SS tumbling gets the brass too clean. That's why I size before wet tumbling.
I lube 223 brass with a homemade mixture of isopropanol and lanolin. The spray bottle releases a mist, so not much gets applied.
I stand the cases up on a tray and spray from opposite sides, then size them. After reloading, I don't need to wipe anything off, and everything cycles fine during firing.
I also lube my pistol brass, not because I have to, but it makes cycling the progressive press a lot lighter. And that doesn't need wiping off either.
The issue of wether or not to clean up after depends on what you apply and how much. Obviously thick goo can't be left on the loaded round.
Back to the OP's original question...
As said, generally if using carbide resizing dies for hand gun cases, lubricating is not required. But, with large cases such as 44 Magnum or 45 Colt. a little spritz of lubricant can make resizing easier.
Bottle neck rifle cases like 223 Remington must be lubricated. There are a few carbide resizing dies on the market for the likes of 223 Remington or 308 Winchester but they are expensive, designed for high volume loaders that would wear out a steel die, and still require lubricant.
Generally, I give cases quick clean in a dry tumbler before resizing to get rid of range grime. I lubricate, resize, then clean the cases again. This latter clean is to get rid of lubricant and polish the cases. I use dry tumbling mostly here but when cases stay tarnished, I send the cases through the wet stainless pin tumbler.
Many folks loading rifle on a progressive run the lubricated cases through the entire process and then give them a quick clean after loading in a DRY tumbler to get rid of the lubricant.
In my opinion, it is hard to beat the performance of Imperial Sizing Wax or RCBS lubricant with a case pad.
I have been experimenting with spray on lubricants of late, both factory made and home made. Mostly, I want to learn how well the spray on lubricants work and whether they operate more efficiently (application, performance handling, cleaning, etc.) in use.
One of the hardest things I find to control with lubricating cases is preventing too much lubricant building up on the shoulder of the case and causing dents.
In my opinion, unless the components for home made spray on lubricant is easily available in your parts, it really is not worth the time and effort to make your own versus buying factory made. For instance, liquid lanolin is not easily found in my area and I would have to make a special run to the store I would never otherwise go to to get it. Yes, on line shopping is a possibility but I do not get warm fuzzies when dealing with the stores that I found it at.
A can of Imperial Sizing Wax or a bottle of RCBS lubricant lasts a loooooong time. One stop shopping to obtain, no messing mixing, and efficient in use.
Sorry if I offended you, I don't have any desire to sell anything, I just wanted to warn friends..... My post was not a rant against anyone using Imperial. Never said it's no good at all, I've used it for 5 years or so. I said it fails miserably when the going gets tough. The Widener-supplied LC 7.62 brass surely does have some MG brass .... maybe even half, the other half is a mix of that used at the small arms range, and even a sprinkling of Match.
I just found it interesting that the older RCBS product I used to use before I discovered and started using Imperial, out-performed it by a huge margin as I attempted to size this blinged mixed 7.61 brass.... I'm not talking about a barely measured difference, I'm talking about basic success or failure....I'm talking about standing on the press lever with both hands, putting all my weight on it and failing vs a normal fast one handed stroke. I'm not new at this....excepting the wet tumbling part....my first batch of LC 7.62 to size was back in 1972. Never had issues before....but then I only discovered and started using Imperial 5 years ago mostly on commercial .223, and this is the first LC 7.62 I tried it on.
That's a given, Don, ....and I found that tumbling it with stainless adds to the friction for some unknown reason. However, this recent experience proved to me that Imperial is not up to that task...not even close.
On the other hand, water-based RCBS Lube II not only works, it is immensely easier on the press, and and doesn't try patience any more than sizing any of the larger rifle cases."
BTW, I also tried Dillon's Lanolin, and even STP, an old timer's standby still used by many. Sizing that brass with either of them was possible, but not without the trial you mentioned on press and patience.....but at least they didn't freeze up the press like Imperial did.
I'm don't have a problem with anyone using Imperial....I've gotten away with it until now, but for me, I'd rather use the slickest, easiest to use product. I thought that might be Imperial, then lanolin spray......now I'm back to a lube pad. You all want to ignore my experience .... please do .... just offering a simple warning to maybe prevent a stuck case by someone.
ok..so I'm now thinking you mean dinged up when you say Blinged , I did a little reading on the SS pins and if you run them to long you will get tiny dings much like running the brass in a tumbler with just water and cleaner , so the unknown reason you get more friction is not unknown , when you push the case it the die you are pushing the Lube in the tiny dimples (dings) and the high spots ( as small as they are ) bind your case to your die , this is just a guess biased on Blinged=Dinged and if that is the case then it make sense, that and the wax works great for anyone not cleaning with SS pins . so dose Blinged = dinged ?
Blinged equals removed everything from the brass leaving squeaky clean brass which has more friction to it than brass with even a little lube, powder residue etc on it.
Throw in machine gun fired brass on top of that and I bet it really is a booger. The last batch of brass I sized (Tumbled with polish) where some of them resisted sizing all I needed was a bit more RCBS Case Lube II than usual, Sized fine after that except for a bit more pressure on the handle.
savanahsdad: I had the same trouble when I first started seeing pictures referred to as "bling" like this picture of 9mm brass:
(New word in my language)
And I got suckered in and bought a Thumbler's and some stainless media. (always liked shiny things) Bling actually was adopted by the internet reloading world from the hip hop culture referring to glittery jewelry.....to us....it is.
My military brass from Wideners came like this:
After the 4 hour tumble, like this:
Who woulda thought clean shiny brass would be harder to size? If there's dings in the bling it's microscopic! Hmmmm! Micro-Dinged Bling.....you mighta started something there!
ok that helps , using "blinged" and not just bling had me confused , and my spell check, as bling is a word but blinged is not ,and the fact that your supper shiny brass get stuck with Imperial Sizing Wax and mine don't made me think your brass was dinged up, plus a quick web search told me if you run your brass in those pin for to long you will get Dings not blings ,
so anyhow, I know what Bling is , I hate the 22" BLING rims that came on my Wife's 2010 Edge
and here is some of my bling
supper shiny and works best with Redding Lube or Imperial Wax 'I've never used the RCBS spray but I have used the RCBS pad lube and it dose work ok but not as good ,
Dry neck lube . I have the Lyman White mica and the Imperial Black neck lube both safe with gun powder , the Imperial is a bit messy but works better , but the Lyman came with a nice applicator , mixing them works great too,
MICRO DING BLING LOL..
I suspect that the level of lubricant needed for resizing is greater with super clean cases as opposed to cases with some carbon or polish on the surface.
I routinely lubricate one case, resize it then resize one or so dry cases. After one or two cases the resizing effort increases greatly meaning I have used up the lubricant left in the die from the lubricated case.
(For those wanting to try this, it is real easy to get a case stuck in the die. Be fore warned!)
For experiments gone bad.
For how to use the above:
I prefer a fine thread mec, tap and bolt with a 3/8 drive socket , and it don't matter how good your case lube is , it don't work if it is not on the case
Walkalong and GW Staar, thanks for the links to correct a stuck case.
Stuck case removers are good investments to have in one's reloading equipment stash.
I have only stuck one case in 30 some years of reloading but it was on a Sunday afternoon and with a custom resizer die. Fortunately, I had the machine tools and materials to build a stuck case remover. Unfortunately, I spent the better part of the afternoon building a stuck case remover.
Any way, cheap insurance, buy a stuck case remover and squirrel it away. It will get used at some point. (Never say never!!!!)
And yes, savannahsdad, it does not matter how good a lubricant is if it is not used.
I use Dillon case lube. It comes in a pump spray bottle, so it's easy to regulate waste. I put them in a plastic baggie, the size of which is relevant to how many I'm lubing, spray it on, mead them around real good from the outside of the baggie, put them in a loading tray and let them dry for at least 15 or 20 minutes, the longer the better. I've let mine sit for several days before, and then resize and tumble. I find that this type lube just works best when it is totally dry, and it will positively never produce lube dents if allowed to completely set up/dry. I wipe mine off after resizing, but I'm sure it's not necessary, there is barely even a detectable residue once they've been resized, that's just my opinion.
OTOH, now and then I hear of someone sticking a case with a spray on lube, and they almost always blame the lube. In many cases, if not all of these instances, they either didn't evenly distribute the spray, or they didn't allow the lube to completely dry, or both.
Hope this helps
I have the least experience with the spray lubes. I have them, Dillon's, and the popular home brew with lanolin and alcohol and I've tried them a little, but I'm just a little edgy when using them on harder to size larger bore rifle. Maybe I shouldn't be so skeered? I hate stuck cases to be sure, but stretched shoulders and necks also ruin brass IMO. I haven't been super impressed using them on my "bling from hell".
Here's the source of my fear: I have rolled em on a cookie sheet, and shook them in a cardboard box, (but not yet in a bag as you do). But either way I don't see how much lube if any get in the necks in most cases. I assume they might work best for bushing dies, or honed neck dies with the expanders permanently removed. Have you used a tool like the RCBS Precision Mic to test for stretch shoulders? Not criticizing, mind you,.... I ask because I,m always looking for better, faster, more slick ways to lube.
Me, and for a couple of reasons. One is that a small amount of 'stuff' on the case acts a sort of a micro bearing. The other is that exceptionally smooth surfaces actually increase friction due to electron-level interactions.
Look up the concept of the Morse taper in machine tools--a really shiny case acts the same way.
Knock on wood but I've been reloading since 1981 and haven't stuck one yet. Once I feel resistance beyond a certain level I stop pushing on the handle.
I have come close a couple of times
Back to the OP's original question: for progressive reloading of rifle cases I use a wax based lubed that dries without being greasy. I started doing this with the Lee lube in water 25 years ago and have now upgraded to using alcohol as the solvent.
Spray lberallly, LET DRY, load and shoot.
Separate names with a comma.