Case Mouth Expander Dies

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Is this thread on the path of something unpleasant? I myself do not see disrespect on the part of Mowgli Terry. I do see a definite lack of pictures on behalf of the OP. So far, all has been quite "dark", so to speak.
 
You are apparently a new reloader.
Not many cases will expand perfectly on center just because you want them to.
The longer the expander of the non Lee brands tend to make the issue more pronounced.
In addition many sizers are designed to size the case to the minimum size in case the brass is minimum thickness. This leads to a pronounced step caused by excessive sizing and not by the expander.
In comparison Lee uses a short tapered expander that is sort of adequate for jacketed bullets but is not very good for cast bullets. It may not leave as large a step in the case but it does not guide the bullets as well and it can result bullet bases that are squeezed down by the case.

What you are complaining about is mostly cosmetic.
Have you been able to determine if it detracts from the performance of your ammo?
I would not blame RCBS for your broken bullet puller. I have been beating on mine for 40 years and it still works.

Most of my straight wall dies were made by Lyman or RCBS years before Lee discovered 7/8-14 dies. I do have several sets of Lee straight wall rifle dies in 38-55 and .45-70. For those calibers I have custom expander plugs for the expander die. The custom expander plugs are about .75 long and are the same size as the bullets to .001 smaller. These permit seating of the cast bullets without base damage. Because they are larger than normal expanders the leave a pronounced step. Much of this step can be blamed on excessive sizing.
I could polish out the steel sizers to eliminate the step but it has never been important.
If you must get rid of the step find some orphan steel sizers and spin polish them in a lathe until you are happy.

Remember the expander is sized to match the fit you need with the bullet.
You off set steps are mostly caused by the sizer dies being smaller than needed for your brass.





Mixed Nuts said:
I may have to do that. Was hoping someone might have had my same experience but found a solution in use or adjustment of the die.

If it is the die, then RCBS has cost me hours of work and, a broken kinetic bullet puller, and all the primers and bullets I'll need to inaccurately expend to get back to re-loadable brass - this is because the RCBS collet bullet puller cannot pull cast .357 LSWC bullets. Doesn't say that on the box. They will also cost me the price of a competitor's expander die so that I can keep loading while they consider my case.

RCBS has great market placement. I see their reloading stuff locally in shops and I buy it. But I haven't been impressed. I've had better luck with Lee. And some people think Lee is cheap stuff.
Click to expand...
 
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beag_nut said:
Is this thread on the path of something unpleasant? I myself do not see disrespect on the part of Mowgli Terry. I do see a definite lack of pictures on behalf of the OP. So far, all has been quite "dark", so to speak.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what's happening exactly. Now that some of the quotes and the posts have been re-written it looks a lot better to me, too. Who re-writes the posts of others after they're posted?

By rewriting what was written by the respective posters, someone has given the conversation a different character. Thereafter, the record is redefined in the new context some mystery person has created.

It is an underhanded thing that was done here. And it was frustrating to be subject too. I am surprised and disappointed by these events.
 
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None of us has rights to edit any posts but our own.
That only leaves moderators and admins who can possibly have the rights to edit all posts.

Mixed Nuts said:
I'm not sure what's happening exactly. Now that some of the quotes and the posts have been re-written it looks a lot better to me, too. Who re-writes the posts of others after they're posted?
Click to expand...
 
Today I went out and returned the hornady dies and got another RCBS set.

View attachment 796076

After setting up with the new die I got better but similar results, there was still a bulge and I was feeling that the description posted by Ireload2 made a lot of sense. Yet I hadn't noticed this before with the other 500 .357s I loaded with the RCBS type die.

So I got out my lee hand press - which is what I used for the first 500 and the cases.

View attachment 796078

and that hand press, with the RCBS die, expanded without the bulge.

The bench press is a brand new RCBS Partner press. Never used it before. In some ways this was a best case scenario as it means that the loaded ammo is likely good as I expanded it on the Lee. This also explains why I never notice bulging before this recent reloading session.

I am now curious, based on Ireload2's remarks, as to whether bulged cases are common during expanding and I should just press on with the RCBS Partner press, or if I should try to get a bench press that performs like my hand rig.
 
The bench press doesn't work right because it is not red, Hornady Red.:D

A moderator may have changed a few contentious postings to keep an interesting and informative thread from disintegrating and becoming locked.

I don't feel the bulge is cosmetic. It is evidence of less than perfect axial alignment. However, the reflection in the brass makes it seem a much worse magnitude than it is. I have the bottom bullet bulge on most of my cases in Fourty-five Auto. The ones that have the bulge only on one side, or worse on one side are put into one box. The cartridges that are even the entire circumference get placed in another. Both shoot the same, but I still do it. Perhaps one day I'll be able to shoot the difference.:)

This is not to mean that another should accept that which I find is okay.
If the new dies perform fine in the Lee like the old dies and both the old and new dies are not up to par in the Partner press, it seems to me therein is an answer.

In adddition, some pistol cases are thicker on the one side as they begin the taper to the head. Seating farther down exacerbates this effect.

I like my Lee hand press. Best thirty dollar press there is. And it is Red! Mine is for depriming duty. And if I ever get the gumption to seat at the range to really pin down the ever elusive "Node", without wasting powder or whacking thirty or fourty cases apart.
I agree that if I know, or feel, that a round is not going to be the best I can make it, I have no interest in firing it.

I am not impressed with RCBS's offerings. They have stellar customer service, though. I've used it all three times I purchased dies from them. Be assured they will make it right. (Just not the first time.:p)

I hope you can find a good solution.

(Psst! Hey! Natchez has Hornady presses on sale! Don't be green with envy, go Red!)

Sorry, couldn't help it. :)
 
Alternative Expanders: Other choices. I had started to do cast bullets in rifle calibers. The Lee Expander was handy. It was necessary to be careful as to not over-expand the case neck. The Lee comes in handy when dealing with two die rifle sets with no expander. By accident I discovered NOE's expanders. NOE is a major producer of bullets molds with a variety of products. Among these offerings were expander plugs that used the Lee die body. These expanders do an excellent job. I had gotten them in .309, 310 and .311 diameter. The plugs can be ordered by size. This option does not keep one tied to factory provided expander dies. Personally, I have had no problem with Lee, Lyman or Dillon expanders. Take care and be safe.
 
Mowgli Terry said:
I discovered NOE's expanders. NOE is a major producer of bullets molds with a variety of products. Among these offerings were expander plugs that used the Lee die body. These expanders do an excellent job.
Click to expand...
This is a good suggestion, they make really good stuff.
 
Back in the day I had some funny looking cases that appeared bulged. What had happened was the case was not seated in the shell holder during sizing. This would give the illusion, to me, of a bulged case. My lesson then was to make sure I followed the case through the process to find exactly what was happening. This was in the day when TC dies were costly. Most of the loading was done with conventional dies. Incidentally, Lee changed all that. Cases needed to be lubed in standard dies. To this day I check cases from the 550b with a case gauge. Using a gauge can save a bunch of time and components..Makes sure the case meeting specs. That is, go in any standard chamber of that caliber.
 
Demi-human said:
A moderator may have changed a few contentious postings to keep an interesting and informative thread from disintegrating and becoming locked.
Click to expand...

I think I would have preferred it being locked over feeling that I was misrepresented. But I guess that's one of the hazards of visiting a message board.

As for the presses, I'm going to look around. Hornady might be the move. Their stuff is on sale at a big store locally, too. There is a new, compact Lyman press. A C type press made of iron. But I doubt I'd ever see that one in a store. So maybe the red one. It's a good day for some orange soda and a new press. :)
 
Mixed Nuts said:
I think I would have preferred it being locked
Click to expand...
My bad, thought I was helping.

In all fairness, I too have had a hard time understanding what is going on with your brass, and so in turn what advise to give, and I can't tell anything from the pics.
 
Walkalong! IMO, not your bad! I much prefer moderators who cut offending comments to keep threads sane and alive and tempers cool, rather than closing whole threads just when it gets interesting......if you want that you can experience it often at AR15.com's reloading forum.;)

Maybe Mowgli regrets getting impatient with the o.p. maybe he didn't notice, but either way Mowgli gave you the best advice.....a page ago. Call RCBS.

I can tell you exactly what they will do. They will ask you to send them the offending die and 5 unsized cases of the type you are sizing. Been there done that.....in my case it was problems with their press swager not working right. Result? A new tool with 2 extra tested swaging buttons, 2 free military crimp removers (both sizes) made for their trim mate or a drill. (said they wanted to see if I liked the new crimp removers.) and the 5 cases were returned, sized and pretty. Zero cost.

In the O.P.'s case they will fix the problem (if the problem is the die). Free......the trick? Just be nice.

BTW....do check to see if your shell holder is straight under the die....and that your case is all the way in the case holder.............I've been there before too.:oops:
 
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Mixed Nuts said:
I think the expander plug (could be called plug - not sure of name) must be threading into a die body that was tapped slightly canted.
Click to expand...

If you are saying the the Expander body threads into the die body, then there is your issue right there.

As a design engineer, one of the first lessons you learn is that you cannot center anything on a thread. There's simply to much play in any thread that's loose enough to allow you to turn it by hand. Do this simple experiment... Take your Expander die (without lock nut) and simply roll it across a flat counter top. Any wobble you can see in the Expander is the part not being located properly. And that's what generates your offset.

Each individual part is perfect, but the assembly is flawed becasue of the methodology employed.

I had a similar issue with an RCBS 223 Rem Sizing Die which centered the decapping pin on a threaded shaft. About every 50 cases it would break a decapping pin. The centering for the pin was close, but not "dead on". I switched to a Hornady Sizing Die which centers the decapping shaft on a collet and never had another issue using the same batch of 223 cases. (Lee also utilizes the collet method.)

To be fair... Dillon also centers their decapping pin on a thread. But they go through the extra step of also including a spring in their design. The spring allows the pin to "hunt" for the primer hole, which the rigidly mounted RCBS parts cannot do.

This concludes your Machine Design 101 class for today. ;)

Hope this helps.
 
Walkalong said:
My bad, thought I was helping.

In all fairness, I too have had a hard time understanding what is going on with your brass, and so in turn what advise to give, and I can't tell anything from the pics.
Click to expand...

I didn't realize it was you. You're one of the nicest and most encouraging guys on The High Road. If I had known it was you I would have kept quiet.

This thread has gotten pretty scrambled. It wasn't the friendliest one and some of that was my fault.I didn't use bad language or make pejorative characterizations, but I could have been more level headed. Methinks it was the realization that I was going to spend a little more time and money to get where I wanted to go and it darkened my mood. Did I mention I reload because I like it?

Today I bought a Rock Chucker - intended to buy the Hornady but it uses a bushing system and I feared the proprietary parts. Ran everything through sizer and expander on the RC. Out of 300 cases only 3 had the bulge. And all of those were new, un-fired brass.

I now have two sets of .357 dies. Four presses (two Lee hand presses) and bunch of brass that looks a lot better. I start to see how re-loaders end up with whole tool sheds full of gear.
 
Mixed Nuts said:
...
Today I bought a Rock Chucker - intended to buy the Hornady but it uses a bushing system and I feared the proprietary parts. Ran everything through sizer and expander on the RC. Out of 300 cases only 3 had the bulge. And all of those were new, un-fired brass.

I now have two sets of .357 dies. Four presses (two Lee hand presses) and bunch of brass that looks a lot better. I start to see how re-loaders end up with whole tool sheds full of gear.
Click to expand...

Thank you for supporting the Mr. Green Jeans movement.
You might want to remove the insert and install the Red insert so that you can use quarter turn dies.
 
I, too, thoroughly appreciate Walkalong's even handedness, as well as the rest of the staff.

I'm glad that it worked out in the end. I have two sets of Fifty Action Express dies. Bullet setback is unpleasant in that cartridge. The Hornady set sized the brass much smaller than the RCBS. I kept the "Green" seater as the crimp die, else I'd have sold the set. Pick through them and put together a "premium set".

I would return the Partner press though. Don't pass that on to another. Kismet and all that.

While I think that the bushings should be included in the set, I do like them. Red Loctite and a Vise-Grip can turn one bushing into a threaded press.

I hope you enjoy shooting them!
 
One of the basic things I was taught many years ago....long before Hornady even got into reloading and added their LnL bushings, was that threaded dies are only straight in a press when you raise the ram to put pressure from the shell holder to the die, BEFORE you tighten the die. While the pressure is on, then tighten the die's nut. That ensures the die and the shell plate are square and centered. (symmetric)

Same thing with other threaded parts like the bullet seating stem.....where you get a sample case/bullet set where you want it....then you again raise the ram and put a little pressure (not enough to move it more, but enough to take out the slack and center the stem). Again while stem is centered, and pressure on, tighten the stem nut. I keep inert samples in my die boxes which have been seated the length I want, and tested for good concentricity...especially in rifle sets. I use them each time I have to clean and/or reset the dies.

I use a similar process with with RCBS's threaded expanders in pistol sets. Tighten the expander nut only while the ram puts some pressure on and centers inside a good, straight, unbulged, pre-expanded sample, in a centered shell holder and die, to force the needed symmetry. (you said you have such samples now...so you can fix your problem once and for all.;))

One more thing you might find useful. Some old timers (guess I'm one now, but I'm referring to when I young) bent the shell holder keeper spring on the Rock Chucker's ram to loosen it.....so that the shell plate would self center as the ram was raised with a case being pushed into a die.

A modern way to do the same thing is to remove the spring altogether and replace it with an "O" ring......that setup gives and allows self-centering a similar way.

BTW, I would think the Hornady bushings would want to be set the same......afterall they have threads between the dies and the bushings.........and if, as someone suggested, you were to remove the large press nut on your new Rock Chucker and add a Hornady LnL adapter to it.....you would have TWO sets of threads to make symmetric. I never was converted.....too lazy to change old habits when they seem to still work I guess.
 
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GW Staar said:
One of the basic things I was taught many years ago....long before Hornady even got into reloading and added their LnL bushings, was that threaded dies are only straight in a press when you raise the ram to put pressure from the shell holder to the die, BEFORE you tighten the die. While the pressure is on, then tighten the die's nut. That ensures the die and the shell plate are square and centered. (symmetric)

Same thing with other threaded parts like the bullet seating stem.....where you get a sample case/bullet set where you want it....then you again raise the ram and put a little pressure (not enough to move it more, but enough to take out the slack and center the stem). Again while stem is centered, and pressure on, tighten the stem nut. I keep inert samples in my die boxes which have been seated the length I want, and tested for good concentricity...especially in rifle sets. I use them each time I have to clean and/or reset the dies.

I use a similar process with with RCBS's threaded expanders in pistol sets. Tighten the expander nut only while the ram puts some pressure on and centers inside a good, straight, unbulged, pre-expanded sample, in a centered shell holder and die, to force the needed symmetry. (you said you have such samples now...so you can fix your problem once and for all.;))

One more thing you might find useful. Some old timers (guess I'm one now, but I'm referring to when I young) bent the shell holder keeper spring on the Rock Chucker's ram to loosen it.....so that the shell plate would self center as the ram was raised with a case being pushed into a die.

A modern way to do the same thing is to remove the spring altogether and replace it with an "O" ring......that setup gives and allows self-centering a similar way.

BTW, I would think the Hornady bushings would want to be set the same......afterall they have threads between the dies and the bushings.........and if, as someone suggested, you were to remove the large press nut on your new Rock Chucker and add a Hornady LnL adapter to it.....you would have TWO sets of threads to make symmetric. I never was converted.....too lazy to change old habits when they seem to still work I guess.
Click to expand...

This post really got my attention.A sort of two stage process where I lock in the die and then, with a good case, lock in the expander. I'm going to unpack the Partner Press tomorrow and try your method. It's these kind of ideas that make the High Road so cool. I could reload for twenty years and never think to try what you've suggested here. Thank you.
 
GW Staar said:
One of the basic things I was taught many years ago....long before Hornady even got into reloading and added their LnL bushings, was that threaded dies are only straight in a press when you raise the ram to put pressure from the shell holder to the die, BEFORE you tighten the die.
Click to expand...
It is in the old RCBS load books.

Until I bought a fancy press, I reloaded my 6 PPC for Benchrest wit an old Partner press, and was competitive.
 
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