case separation
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243winxb
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223 case separation starting
Yes, in 223. The shoulder had been pushed back .014" on sizing and fired in an M16 with a maximum headspace. But it was washed in a vinegar solution before storing for many years, that may had an effect on the brass??
Yes, in 223. The shoulder had been pushed back .014" on sizing and fired in an M16 with a maximum headspace. But it was washed in a vinegar solution before storing for many years, that may had an effect on the brass??
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jeeptim
Member
Why yes I have, British 303 with s&b brass , and most recently a mauser I got on a trade that was converted to 30/06 either case head separation or primer popping out about 1/16" headspace way out of wack.
someguy2800
Member
A friend a mine had an M1 garand with way to much head space that would do this.
I have seen once fired (New ammo I saw fired myself.) that was nearly separated due to bad headspace in the gun. Some showed a bright line, some were actually cracked about halfway around, and the rest were very close to it inside but with no external signs. It wouldn't take much for those with no external signs to let loose the next time, especially if sized too much, IE, shoulders pushed back as far as the die will allow.
I always check any once fired/range brass internally before loading it. It doesn't take long and you know it isn't ready to let loose. Actually, I internally check all my bottle necked rifle brass each and every time before loading.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=734058
I always check any once fired/range brass internally before loading it. It doesn't take long and you know it isn't ready to let loose. Actually, I internally check all my bottle necked rifle brass each and every time before loading.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=734058
ok thanks! i was starting to think i'd gotten screwed and maybe the brass wasn't actually once fired.
i am processing 10k pieces on a dillon 1050. just don't want to take the time to stick a feeler in each case
for training/plinking ammo, it's a lot faster to just clear the malfunction
i am processing 10k pieces on a dillon 1050. just don't want to take the time to stick a feeler in each case
for training/plinking ammo, it's a lot faster to just clear the malfunction
243winxb
Member
Dillon Shell plate and FL sizing.
My Dillon RL 450 shell plate produced different FL sizing (shoulder bump) head to datum, at each station. This depends on the station where the die is first adjusted.
Add the dies .005" to the .009" you get .014" head clearance.
My Dillon RL 450 shell plate produced different FL sizing (shoulder bump) head to datum, at each station. This depends on the station where the die is first adjusted.
Add the dies .005" to the .009" you get .014" head clearance.
W.E.G.
Member
I've seen it several times with 1x-fired brass.
Should be rare though.
Should be rare though.
gamestalker
member
Oh ya, back in my early beginnings, in fact it was with my first set of loads in bottle neck. Back in those days we didn't have the internet, so the information one obtained wasn't always the most reliable, a bit of a gamble as it were. The following story is a blast from the past.
So what happened was very likely a combination of mistakes, and not just one single error. I bought a Lee dipper kit when I started reloading for .357 mag and 44 mag, which had been working just fine. I bought some IMR-4350 (Dupont), but I hadn't yet purchased a scale, I honestly didn't know I even needed one. I used the Lee scoop chart to determine what should be the correct dipper for the number of grains as per the data for .270 win..
Then when I resized, I thought the process was going to be no different than when resizing the .357 mag and 44 mag brass, I knew little if anything about shoulder bump, in fact I was under the impression that I needed to bump the shoulders back as far as the die could push them. Some fellow in a shop I had been buying my supplies from for both shotgun and handgun, told me to make sure I full length resize, I assumed that meant lots of cam over, thus size the brass down as much as possible.
So using those scooped and compressed charges, and brass that had the shoulders bumped as far as was possible with the FL die, which was too much, I pulled the trigger on that Rem. 700 chambered in .270 win., and ended up with a piece, well pieces of brass that had to be picked out of the chamber, also the pierced primers that had fallen out of the pockets after firing.
At the time, my BIL and I both had started reloading bottle neck at the same time, in fact we both started reloading at the same time. This was the first bottle neck loads for either of us, me for .270 win, and he was loading .280 Rem. for a brand new M77, one of the really nice looking one's of the day. We both tested our loads together, and both of us had those very same catastrophic results.
After that first near disaster, we decided to buy scales the next day, and I contacted a good friend and seasoned BR shooter to ask him what might have gone wrong. He explained what probably happened, went into a bit of detail as to what head space was, and how to properly resize bottle neck brass.
He explained to me that I probably shouldn't have to toss the brass since it was only once fired, and explained how to get the shoulder safely and properly formed, which started a process I still employ to this very day. I seated the bullets jammed against the lands, and using my newly acquired scale, I charged them with a 53.0 gr. charge of Dupont IMR-4350.
To my horror, the scooped cartridges were over charged by something like 4.0 or 5.0 grs.. I don't recall the specifics, but they were way over max. This too, was also in part due to something the guy at the LGS had told us, in that he said to make sure to fill the brass up real good with 4350, and that I really didn't even need to measure them, just load them as compressed charges. By golly, I'll admit I didn't know anything, and I had read about compressed charges in my books, so I thought I was getting some good information. To this very day, I get the feeling that LGS guy either deliberately led us down the wrong path, or he simply didn't know squat about reloading and was trying to impress a couple of new reloaders.
About a week later, my BIL and I both shot our properly charged, yet over bumped brass on the advice of my BR friend, and nothing bad happened. What's more, I never had another catastrophic event from that day forward. Considering that first experience nearly ended mine and my BIL's desire to ever reload again, I now look back on that first pull of the trigger and wonder what would have happened if either of us hadn't been shooting strong actions that day.
Since that rough start, I've experienced a few case heads that have teetered on separation, but none that ever completely let go. But those haven't been due to excessively bumped shoulders, or because of over charged cases, but rather by using brass that had been loaded for it's last time, usually some where around the 10th - 15th time. I soon learned about the paper clip trick, also something my good friend taught us how to check the web for thinning, so now I don't ever get that close to separationsl.
Ya, it was certainly a rough start for my BIL and I, but we did it, by the skin of our teeth, and without blowing our selves up. I shake in my shoes to think just how close we came to blowing our selves and our brand new rifles to pieces.
GS
So what happened was very likely a combination of mistakes, and not just one single error. I bought a Lee dipper kit when I started reloading for .357 mag and 44 mag, which had been working just fine. I bought some IMR-4350 (Dupont), but I hadn't yet purchased a scale, I honestly didn't know I even needed one. I used the Lee scoop chart to determine what should be the correct dipper for the number of grains as per the data for .270 win..
Then when I resized, I thought the process was going to be no different than when resizing the .357 mag and 44 mag brass, I knew little if anything about shoulder bump, in fact I was under the impression that I needed to bump the shoulders back as far as the die could push them. Some fellow in a shop I had been buying my supplies from for both shotgun and handgun, told me to make sure I full length resize, I assumed that meant lots of cam over, thus size the brass down as much as possible.
So using those scooped and compressed charges, and brass that had the shoulders bumped as far as was possible with the FL die, which was too much, I pulled the trigger on that Rem. 700 chambered in .270 win., and ended up with a piece, well pieces of brass that had to be picked out of the chamber, also the pierced primers that had fallen out of the pockets after firing.
At the time, my BIL and I both had started reloading bottle neck at the same time, in fact we both started reloading at the same time. This was the first bottle neck loads for either of us, me for .270 win, and he was loading .280 Rem. for a brand new M77, one of the really nice looking one's of the day. We both tested our loads together, and both of us had those very same catastrophic results.
After that first near disaster, we decided to buy scales the next day, and I contacted a good friend and seasoned BR shooter to ask him what might have gone wrong. He explained what probably happened, went into a bit of detail as to what head space was, and how to properly resize bottle neck brass.
He explained to me that I probably shouldn't have to toss the brass since it was only once fired, and explained how to get the shoulder safely and properly formed, which started a process I still employ to this very day. I seated the bullets jammed against the lands, and using my newly acquired scale, I charged them with a 53.0 gr. charge of Dupont IMR-4350.
To my horror, the scooped cartridges were over charged by something like 4.0 or 5.0 grs.. I don't recall the specifics, but they were way over max. This too, was also in part due to something the guy at the LGS had told us, in that he said to make sure to fill the brass up real good with 4350, and that I really didn't even need to measure them, just load them as compressed charges. By golly, I'll admit I didn't know anything, and I had read about compressed charges in my books, so I thought I was getting some good information. To this very day, I get the feeling that LGS guy either deliberately led us down the wrong path, or he simply didn't know squat about reloading and was trying to impress a couple of new reloaders.
About a week later, my BIL and I both shot our properly charged, yet over bumped brass on the advice of my BR friend, and nothing bad happened. What's more, I never had another catastrophic event from that day forward. Considering that first experience nearly ended mine and my BIL's desire to ever reload again, I now look back on that first pull of the trigger and wonder what would have happened if either of us hadn't been shooting strong actions that day.
Since that rough start, I've experienced a few case heads that have teetered on separation, but none that ever completely let go. But those haven't been due to excessively bumped shoulders, or because of over charged cases, but rather by using brass that had been loaded for it's last time, usually some where around the 10th - 15th time. I soon learned about the paper clip trick, also something my good friend taught us how to check the web for thinning, so now I don't ever get that close to separationsl.
Ya, it was certainly a rough start for my BIL and I, but we did it, by the skin of our teeth, and without blowing our selves up. I shake in my shoes to think just how close we came to blowing our selves and our brand new rifles to pieces.
GS
TwinReverb
Member
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Nope, never had a problem in 9mm or .380.
Blue68f100
Member
GS, My start was not near as bad as yours, late 1960's - early 70's. I started with 20ga shotgun using Lee wack a mole set, still have it. Then moved to my first rifle a few years later, W308 for a BLR. The problem I had was getting the brass to size down so it would fit the tight chambers Browning where know for. Used an original RCBS Jr press and the RCBS case lube the consistency of wheel bearing grease. Back then there was no such option as Small Base. No internet, just books and if you were lucky enough to know someone to mentor you. Never came close to blowing up a gun, thank goodness for that, but I had a hard time for a while getting my reloads to chamber. I was told to toss the brass after 5-6 firing. None of them had the shinny ring if I recall. Doing that I guess saved me from case separation. I still replace my brass after 5-6 firings to this day, except straight wall ammo. Then bought my self a Rem 700BDL in Rem7mm Mag. I had a very hard time to keep from putting dents in the shoulders. Then I discovered is the the set screw on the locking ring happen to end over the vent hole. Since RCBS used lead shot under the setscrew it sealed it off perfectly. Only had to move the lock ring 1/8" to clear the hole. Not something you go looking for now days.
Now I check for head separation using a small dental pic. Never found one at all, but all of my brass is sized to only push the shoulder back 0.002"-0.003" so the brass is not being overly worked.
You young guys have it easy today with the information highway at your finger tips.
Now I check for head separation using a small dental pic. Never found one at all, but all of my brass is sized to only push the shoulder back 0.002"-0.003" so the brass is not being overly worked.
You young guys have it easy today with the information highway at your finger tips.
FROGO207
Member
No case head separations when reloading but before I had dies for my first 303 BRIT the factory POF ammo would have case head separations about every other round. I finally had the headspace checked and adjusted to a safe level. The serial numbers on the bolt and rifle did not match. Someone must have swapped things before the guy I bought it from obtained it. The gunsmith said it was more than twice what was safe IIRC. One tough rifle IMHO. Got a deal on the rifle because the first guy was sick of cleaning split cases out of the thing. I did not know much about headspace then (early 70's).
gamestalker
member
Oh, I forgot about shotgun, that was actually the very first relaoding I ever did. I bought a Mec 600 Jr. which I still have, and was just having a blast loading on that thing for several years before i got into metallic.
Then my friend decided he wanted to give it a go and bought one also. I don't know what he did wrong, but one day we were having a great day of hunting quail with our own shotgun loads. I was shooting my 870 Wingmaster, he was shooting a high end Browning auto loader. a covey got up, he swung and pulled the trigger and his barrel launched about 75 yards. I don't remember what he did wrong, or if even did do anything wrong, but that was the first time I saw a barrel take flight. Even though it was a rather expensive moment, nobody got injured at all. But we laughed so hard, we were literally rolling on the ground. Once we had regained out composure, another buddy that was hunting with us was shooting some of our reloads, his eye's got real big, and then he empties his gun and vest of all the reloads we had provided for him. He was shooting an $8k or $10k European double or something, from his Dad's collection I think.
Oh boy, those were the days my friends. I've never had a KB, but I would bet I probably got close to it a couple of times. I remember when I had just started load 12 ga, I had decided to use a larger powder bushing with a particular recipe, don't remember what it was. What I do remember, is a guy I knew, who knew a guy that had given him a killer recipe he said he used shooting either trap or skeet. So I thought, why not, if a professional trap . skeep shooter is using it, it must be ok, wrong! I blew a Blue magic hull to shreds with that recipe. Blew the top of the crimp section of the hull clean off, and also partially separated the brass base from the plastic. I grew into reloading back in those days. But undoubtedly the biggest lesson I learned back in those days before the internet, was only trust published data, don't use loads or shotgun recipes that came from a guy, that knows a guy, who said it's awesome. That recipe was probably the only 1-1/8 oz. recipe that shot at high powered rifle velocities. Yep, things were much different back in those days, there were a good number of fellows trying to get guns to do the impossible, as it were.
I remember this neighbor who was a Marine, he had just bought a new SBH 44 mag. and a Lee Whack a mole. This was like 1980 I think. He was all excited and just kept on about how strong the SBH was, and now he would be able to load some kick butt ammunition. On the first day of ownership and reloading for it, he would load some, go shoot them, then come home and load some more, back and forth, this went on most of the day. Then finally on one return to his house he had his head hanging down, I was standing outside cleaning my boat, and asked him how it going, did something happen? Did you get the load developed finally? He just opened the range bag and showed me his completely demolished brand new SBH. His hands were blackened and all cut up, he had some cuts and powder burns on his face, and the revolver had a big chunk of the cylinder completely blown away, the top strap was all pushed up, it had been reduced to a hunk of twisted metal, looked very similar to the one Speer illustrates in the #10. Yep, those were the days indeed.
GS
Then my friend decided he wanted to give it a go and bought one also. I don't know what he did wrong, but one day we were having a great day of hunting quail with our own shotgun loads. I was shooting my 870 Wingmaster, he was shooting a high end Browning auto loader. a covey got up, he swung and pulled the trigger and his barrel launched about 75 yards. I don't remember what he did wrong, or if even did do anything wrong, but that was the first time I saw a barrel take flight. Even though it was a rather expensive moment, nobody got injured at all. But we laughed so hard, we were literally rolling on the ground. Once we had regained out composure, another buddy that was hunting with us was shooting some of our reloads, his eye's got real big, and then he empties his gun and vest of all the reloads we had provided for him. He was shooting an $8k or $10k European double or something, from his Dad's collection I think.
Oh boy, those were the days my friends. I've never had a KB, but I would bet I probably got close to it a couple of times. I remember when I had just started load 12 ga, I had decided to use a larger powder bushing with a particular recipe, don't remember what it was. What I do remember, is a guy I knew, who knew a guy that had given him a killer recipe he said he used shooting either trap or skeet. So I thought, why not, if a professional trap . skeep shooter is using it, it must be ok, wrong! I blew a Blue magic hull to shreds with that recipe. Blew the top of the crimp section of the hull clean off, and also partially separated the brass base from the plastic. I grew into reloading back in those days. But undoubtedly the biggest lesson I learned back in those days before the internet, was only trust published data, don't use loads or shotgun recipes that came from a guy, that knows a guy, who said it's awesome. That recipe was probably the only 1-1/8 oz. recipe that shot at high powered rifle velocities. Yep, things were much different back in those days, there were a good number of fellows trying to get guns to do the impossible, as it were.
I remember this neighbor who was a Marine, he had just bought a new SBH 44 mag. and a Lee Whack a mole. This was like 1980 I think. He was all excited and just kept on about how strong the SBH was, and now he would be able to load some kick butt ammunition. On the first day of ownership and reloading for it, he would load some, go shoot them, then come home and load some more, back and forth, this went on most of the day. Then finally on one return to his house he had his head hanging down, I was standing outside cleaning my boat, and asked him how it going, did something happen? Did you get the load developed finally? He just opened the range bag and showed me his completely demolished brand new SBH. His hands were blackened and all cut up, he had some cuts and powder burns on his face, and the revolver had a big chunk of the cylinder completely blown away, the top strap was all pushed up, it had been reduced to a hunk of twisted metal, looked very similar to the one Speer illustrates in the #10. Yep, those were the days indeed.
GS
TimSr
Member
I've never had a case separation, but my Arisaka 6.5 seems to have that potential.
With pistol cases, I re-load them until they split which is typically not a dangerous pratice.
What are the typical consequences of a rifle case separation?
With pistol cases, I re-load them until they split which is typically not a dangerous pratice.
What are the typical consequences of a rifle case separation?
243winxb
Member
Separation of neck happens also.
[/URL][/IMG] Click for larger photo
Scares me when only the neck remains in the chamber and the hammer drops on the next round.
A reloader on another forum shot 5 rounds. When he ejected the 5th round he examined the case, no neck. He then checked the first 4 cases fired, no necks. He then removed the bolt and found the neck of the last case fired in the bore in front of the chamber.
I suggested he had developed some bad methods, techniques or habits. He said he had been taking lessons on annealing on the Internet. He decided he would visit, I set up a few projects, making annealing equipment was one of them.
Then there is case head separation, once/first firing, second firing etc.. As I have said before, I have shoulders on cases that never make it to the shoulder of the chamber.
F. Guffey
I suggested he had developed some bad methods, techniques or habits. He said he had been taking lessons on annealing on the Internet. He decided he would visit, I set up a few projects, making annealing equipment was one of them.
Then there is case head separation, once/first firing, second firing etc.. As I have said before, I have shoulders on cases that never make it to the shoulder of the chamber.
F. Guffey
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if the bolt doesn't go into battery, i don't think the firing pin will be able to touch the primer regardless of what the hammer does.
if you somehow manage to get something in the BORE, yes, obviously that's a safety issue. first time i've ever heard of that happening though
if you somehow manage to get something in the BORE, yes, obviously that's a safety issue. first time i've ever heard of that happening though
IF "I"? He managed to loose 5 case necks, he asked: What happened to the other 4 case necks that were missing? I suggested it was too late, I suggested he walk the range and look for them the next time it happens. I know of a few shooters that do not assume, one makes bullets.
F. Guffey
Patocazador
Member
Never had a separation on the first or second firing but I reload mainly bottleneck cases that are neck-sized only after the first firing. Trimming is necessary after several firings but case separations don't happen until maybe the 12th to the 20th firing.
I'd use brass forever if possible.
I'd use brass forever if possible.
243winxb
Member
True, on an M16/AR15. The bolt has to be locked.
TimSr
Member
When I think of "case separation", I think of the case splitting near the base where they abnormally stretch in guns with "generous" chambers. That was the case in which I was wondering if it created a dangerous situation. I recently had a handful (vintage 1980's) 30-06 handloads crack at the neck when fired in my Garand. Didn't realize that fell under "case separation" but other then something staying in the bore, I didn't see anything that alarmed me concerning safety.
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