Cast vs Forged

[Hunter 35]

I'm fairly new to this form and this may have already been discussed on here but I haven't seen it anywhere.

So here is the question " Forged or Cast" frames, which is better and why.

Thanks for the input

Mike

 

[Kendal Black]

I hold the extreme minority view on this: I just don't care. If proper engineering was observed one will do the job as well as the other. It is mainly tradition, in my view, that upholds forging against casting and machining as better than MIM.

Manufacturing methods are advancing all the time. The latest thing is building complex parts through layer deposition. A hundred years hence, folks will say, "Wow, a genuine stamped receiver! They sure don't build 'em like they used to!"

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I agree for the most part it doesn't matter. With that said my favorite brand is forged, which is part of the reason they MSRP on them was a little higher than some of the competition.

 

[SunnySlopes]

I own both and have never had problems with either. It's immaterial to me.

 

[Hunter 35]

Thanks for the replies, I don't have enough experience to know if there really is a difference, and I doubt that most guns will be shot enough to wear either out.

For the most part I think a lot of people buy guns with the intention of shooting them regularly but they end up mostly being left in the safe.
(speaking for myself at least)

 

[VA27]

Another "I don't care" vote. Forged, milled, machined, stamped, MIM, it's all good. Proper design and heat treat is the key.

 

[JohnKSa]

There are several thousand steel alloys with differing material properties. Depending on quality control and heat treating, those material properties can vary significantly even if we were restrict the discussion to a single alloy.

The design of the part is also of critical importance. Pick the best alloy for the job, make the part perfectly, heat treat it properly and check it carefully, and all that's wasted. If the design is bad, the part won't last long.

In other words, the pre-forming technique (casting, MIM, forging, etc.) is only one variable out of many that affects the strength and durability of the final product. And it's certainly not the most critical factor by any means.

Pick a company that has a reputation for making good quality products that operate properly and have good durability. Also make sure the company is known for standing behind their products. Then leave the minutia to them. They pay experts the big bucks to take care of the details.

 

[kozak6]

Any metallurgists here?

It's generally acceptted that forged metal is stronger, but I wonder by how much. Some of the AR-15 people really freak out, but I have my doubts.

Of course, the flip side is that cast metal parts are generally cheaper to produce.

At any rate, Ruger makes extensive use of castings in their firearms, and they are generally well regarded. If a firearm is properly designed and built, I would imagine that it doesn't make a significant difference.

 

[JohnKSa]

If a firearm is properly designed and built, I would imagine that it doesn't make a significant difference.

Precisely. That's why there are firearms with aluminum and even plastic frames that still hold up very well even though we all know that aluminum and plastic aren't as strong as steel.

 

[Drail]

There are a lot of variations in casting materials and techniques but Ruger has pretty much perfected the process with their investment casting. Their quality control has reached the point where they produce extremely critical assemblies and parts for NASA and the aerospace industry as well as several other firearm companies.

 

[crossrhodes]

Any thing good

Like many OP's stated....if it's made right it really don't matter. Twin Pines and Ruger have proven this. Some of the M4 guys will never see the light on this issue and will attack you about life taken events and what will happen if you don't see the light...their way.

 

[SaxonPig]

All of the above comments are wrong.

Sorry, forged is better. Way better. Period. End of discussion.

Forged steel is stronger and more predictable in manufacturing. Cast must be thicker (anyone else recall those ads going back and forth between S&W and Ruger a couple decades ago?) to have the same strength and even then it's not as strong.

Cast steel is a manufacturing shortcut to reduce costs. It is not an improvement on materials. It's cheaper. Cheaper is rarely better.

S&W has had a ton of QC problems since climbing down off the mountain top a few years ago and sinking into the quagmire of cast revolver parts. I have one S&W of recent manufacture made with cast parts. So far so good but I still greatly prefer the older guns made with quality materials.

 

[fletcher]

Any metallurgists here?

Yep. The material differences between the two are explained here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=608693

Forging will produce the highest quality (from an integrity perspective) and most structurally sound part. However, with proper design/engineering, a cast frame will do just fine. The most important part is whether the designers account for the differences in each process during design in order to prevent failures from occurring.

 

[Kenneth]

SaxonPig is correct. Also, tiny air bubbles in cast metals make it practically impossible to TIG weld them. When cheap castings are broken they are junk. When expensive castings are broken they are junque.

"No means no!" is incomprehensible to a rapist.
"Shall not be infringed" is incomprehensible to a Statist.

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story wrote;

 

[45_auto]

Kind of like asking is a cast or forged crank better in my car engine.

The answer is that either one is acceptable if designed and used correctly.

There's not much coherent info available out there from the gun industry, but the automotive industry uses th same processes and materials for cranshafts, and the same question is asked. The paragraphs below come from a Popular Hot Rodding article on crankshaft materials

Cast vs. Forged
Manufacturing techniques play a substantial role in the ultimate strength of a crankshaft. Casting and forging are the two most common manufacturing methods, and each has benefits and drawbacks. Cast cranks start life as liquid iron or steel, and are poured into a mold. This allows the raw casting to closely resemble its final shape, which reduces the amount of final machining. Combined with the fact that the equipment necessary to produce castings is relatively inexpensive, it's obvious why cast cranks are the predominant choice of the OEs. Aftermarket cast cranks offer significant improvements in strength, and can be had for as little as $200.

In contrast, the forging process requires heavy duty presses and more extensive final machining operations. Forging involves heating up a cylindrical slug of metal to a molten state, then pounding it into shape with presses and dies. It is this compressing action that creates an inherently stronger end product over a casting. "In a casting, the grain structure looks like beach sand," explains Tom Lieb of Scat. "In a forging, the force of the press compresses the grain together so it becomes one uniform grain flow. As the space between the molecules is compressed, each molecule is forced to 'hold hands' with the next molecule." Compared to a cast crank, the drawback of a forging is cost. The heavy duty hydraulic presses used in the forging process are extremely expensive, which leads to a costlier product. Expect prices to start at $500 for more popular engine makes.

Strength

Before delving into the specifics of metallurgy, there are strength characteristics universal to all castings and forgings worth nothing. In a lab, metal is tested for strength by pulling a one-inch round bar apart until it breaks. Tensile strength relates to the amount of force required to start stretching the bar. Yield strength describes the force needed to continue to pull the bar apart. The difference between tensile and yield strength between castings and forgings is significant. "With a casting, you only have to reduce the cross section of the bar by six percent before it breaks," Lieb explains. "With a forging, the cross section can be reduced by 20 percent before the bar breaks."

Hierarchy Of Metals

Since the American Society for Metals allows for some leeway within each grade of metal, the tensile strength ratings listed in this chart and elsewhere in the story are approximate, not exact figures. Nevertheless, they do adequately allow comparison among the strengths of different metal grades. While these represent just a small portion of all the steel alloys established by the ASM, they are the ones most common in automotive applications. Here's a quick rundown:

MATERIAL: TENSILE STRENGTH: RATING:
Cast iron 70,000-80,000 psi OE engines
Nodular iron 95,000 psi OE engines
Cast steel 105,000 psi strongest of the cast cranks
1010/1045/1053 100,000-110,000 psi high-carbon factory forging
5140 steel 115,000 psi sportsman-grade forging
4130 steel 120,000-125,000 psi premium alloy
4340 steel 140,000-145,000 psi strongest alloy for cranks/rods

The 4130 and 4340 steels are commonly used in forged gun parts. As you can see from the chart above, they're about 15% to 40% stronger than the equivalent cast steel part. That's the primary reason a forged gun frame or cylinder can be 15% to 40% smaller and lighter than a cast one for equivalent strength if designed correctly.

 

[Hunter 35]

Looks like I stirred up a hornets nest here... but I guess I asked for it. I believe that you may all be right from a certain perspective. When I asked which was stronger maybe I asked the question incorrectly, The real issue is ( Are cast frames strong enough to do the job )

I appreciate all your answers, The real reason I am asking is I want to buy one of the hi cap 1911s and I believe the frames on just about all of them are cast....

Thanks, Mike

 

[Hunter 35]

Very knowledge group here.......

 

[hermannr]

Because the OP is new to firearms, may I caution...there are also cast zinc parts used in some very inexpensive firearms. Cast zinc is very weak.

However, Scandium aluminum alloy is as strong as the strongest steels. so, not only do you need to consider cast v forged, you also need to consider the metalurgy. A lot of firearms are manufactured with different alloys of steel, aluminum and other metals

 

[JohnKSa]

Sorry, forged is better. Way better. Period. End of discussion.

In the same spirit as the quote above. Sorry, but no. Period. End of discussion.

The quote above has absolutely no chance of being correct. The idea that a cast steel frame is always inferior in terms of strength/durability to a forged steel frame simply can't be true in general. Different alloys have different properties, different frames have different designs and therefore different inherent durability issues, different heat treatments can affect the final strength of the part, and the QC is also critical to the quality/strength/durability of the end-product. Finally, if the part isn't significantly stressed, it doesn't make any difference how strong/durable it is. That's why plastic frames are employed successfully in some gun designs without compromising service life. There's simply not enough stress on the frame to damage it.

It is simply impossible to make a blanket statement about the durability/strength of a part based on nothing other than the way in which the part was pre-formed. There are far too many other factors that play a part to be able to boil it down to something so simple.

If we begin limiting the comparison so that all other differences are totally eliminated (identical alloys, identical heat treat, identical and excellent QC, identical parts, etc.) then one could accurately make the statement that the cast part will probably be stronger. The problem is that you don't typically see the same alloys used in castings and forgings, the different alloys will require different heat treats, etc.

Answering the following questions will provide a significant learning experience.

1. How many steel alloys are there?
2. How many steel alloys are commonly used in cast gun parts?
3. How many steel alloys are commonly used in forged gun parts?
4. What are the material properties of the alloys used in cast and forged gun parts?
5. How do the material properties of those alloys vary with heat treat/hardening?

 

[dogtown tom]

SaxonPig ....Sorry, forged is better. Way better. Period. End of discussion....

Really?
Explain the FN/Browning Hi Power in .40S&W.....the FORGED frame could not take the pounding of the .40 so FN switched to a CAST frame that could and is superior to the old forged frame Hi Power.

So "forged is better"?

Not always.

 

[SaxonPig]

Cast is not stronger. Any manufacturer who went with cast did so to save money. It's cheaper.

In the 1970s Detroit automakers went from forged crankshafts to cast to save money. Cast is cheaper. The racers stuck with forged cranks for their high performance engines. Gee... I wonder why? Maybe it's because... that's right... forged is better.

Forged is better (unless you want less expensive then cast is better). Period. What I just wrote is correct. End of debate.

For pistol frames is cast "good enough?" Maybe. But it is not better than forged.

 

[dogtown tom]

SaxonPig Cast is not stronger.

C'mon, answer the question:

Explain the FN/Browning Hi Power in .40S&W.....the FORGED frame could not take the pounding of the .40 so FN switched to a CAST frame that could and is superior to the old forged frame Hi Power.

So "forged is better"?

 

[P-32]

I guess this all means my Caspian 1911 frames which are cast by Rugar are junk.......

 

[JohnKSa]

Caspian is on record as saying that they have fewer issues with their cast frames than their forged frames. The point being that a well-designed, well-made cast part, made from a good alloy and properly quality controlled can be better (stronger/more durable) than a forged part. Not because castings are inherently stronger than forged parts but because there's nothing magical about the forging process that insures that a forged part is well-designed, well-made, made from a strong alloy or properly quality controlled.

THEORETICALLY, forgings are stronger than castings. In the real world there are too many variables for it to be possible to make accurate categorical statements about the relative strength and durability of castings vs. forgings. The closest one could come is to say something like: "All else being equal, forgings are stronger than castings." Of course, practically speaking, all else is never equal.

If you want a gun made from strong and durable parts, here's how to get one.

Pick a company that has a reputation for making good quality products that operate properly and have good durability. Also make sure the company is known for standing behind their products. Then leave the minutia to them. They pay experts the big bucks to take care of the details.

 

[Hunter 35]

Thanks everyone for your input. I think the best advise for me will be to stick with a name brand manufacturer who will stand behind their products....

I don't dare ask about aluminum frames because I have no idea what rabbit trail that might lead to...

Thanks again, Mike