CCW and Conflict Avoidance

[bainter1212]

Hi folks,
I have been going over and over some personal rules of conduct since getting my permit in February.

One overriding theme that seems to present itself again and again in my thoughts is a doctrine of "conflict avoidance".

I am sure the members here on THR run the gamut when it comes to our participation in conflicts with other citizens currently and in the past. Some of us (like myself) will have spent most of our lives avoiding fights, brawls, etc whenever possible. I am sure some of us here spent a considerable portion of our lives perfecting our brawling or barfighting skills and generally never backing away from a fight.

I have been in a few fights in my life......all of which were forced upon me (ie I couldn't get away). These were non-lethal fistfights which ended up with me beaten and bloody (but fine otherwise). Luckily no threat to my life has reared its head. As I have aged I have learned even better how to avoid these situations.

That being said, before I started carrying there might have been a few hypothetical situations in which I may have voluntarily engaged in a fistfight. For instance, if somebody harassed or insulted my wife in public may have led me into a fight.
However .......

Now that I carry, this thought process has changed considerably. I now feel that if AT ALL possible, I should get my family away from a bad situation, even if it looks to everyone around me that I might be a "wimp" or a "wuss".
The Zimmerman situation has taught me that carrying a gun means that any situation that would have formerly been "just a fistfight" can quickly turn into a life or death situation. It is a sobering thought and a very heavy reaponsibility.

I have gone over this new personal doctrine with my wife and she is understanding (luckily she is with me for my brains not my brawn )
There are some women out there who might require a man to engage in a fight even if not absolutely necessary, for "machismo", and IMO this can put a CCW holder in a dangerous position.
My wife understands that retreating to live another day is of paramount importance. The minute I engage in a needless conflict is the minute I leave my family possibly unprotected.

What say you all? Any brawlers in here who have trouble walking away from a challenge?

Mods: feel free to move if this is not in the correct forum.

 

[Fred Fuller]

The "school solution" here is referred to as ADEE ... a search on the term will yield previous discussions. See http://www.teddytactical.com/Redesign/Study/2006/02_StudyDay.html for the origin of the concept.

A - Avoid
D- De-escalate/Disengage
E- Escape
E- Evade

An important concept in addition is De-Selection, which will help avoid approaches from would-be predators in the first place.

Understanding the material at http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html is critical in all of the above concepts...

See http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15597&p=177163 for a good 'homework' compilation.

 

[bainter1212]

Good....so I am not alone.

I know there is a large segment of society who would view this doctrine as "cowardly", I just feel that carrying a gun changes the paradigm completely.

 

[Tobias1900]

A defensible shooting is the last line of defense when somebody's life is in imminent danger.
If a person can't distinguish the difference between that and a woman demonstrating her daddy issues - then he shouldn't be carrying a firearm.

 

[MedWheeler]

First rule of concealed carry? Don't go anywhere with your firearm you would not go without it (acceptable exception: firing range.)

Following that rule will take you far. Then, it's about failing the (criminal's) "interview" (what we know here as "de-selection", as mentioned), then the ADEE strategy.

 

[pezo]

I was in a situation where I had an irate confrontational man staring me down through my drivers window. This was do to a parking lot mis understanding. He was on foot staring into my vehicle window face up to it. I was sitting in driver seat. My right hand on my revolver hidden to my side and by the seat. I de-escalated, apologized and the idiot left. He was five times my size. I had initially screwed up by not evading the situation by driving off but corrected it by de escalating. The thought or fear if you will that I had at that moment of tension was "oh my god I may have to shoot this stupid idiot if he pulls my door open or puches through my window." My locks were unlocked, an over sight. That incident taught me boatloads. I may back down or wuss out. But better to be a wuss than be set into a situation where you may wind up with such a life changing incident.

 

[bainter1212]

First rule of concealed carry? Don't go anywhere with your firearm you would not go without it (acceptable exception: firing range.)

Following that rule will take you far. Then, it's about failing the (criminal's) "interview" (what we know here as "de-selection", as mentioned), then the ADEE strategy.

My rule is altered from this somewhat -
I carry at all times when I am away from my house and with my family. I will not go without my firearm when I am with my kid (at the very least).

The addendum would be that I will never take my family willingly to a place where a firearm is absolutely necessary (more conflict avoidance).

 

[Panzerschwein]

OP you are having a positive thought process. Good on you; this is an important topic.

IMHO if someone feels compelled to break into a fistfight over someone saying something to their wife, they have no business carrying a gun. Pride can get you into a world of trouble that you wouldn't believe. I you engaged in a fistfight with someone for them using a verbal insult, and they start fighting back, you have entered the realm of what is know as "mutual combat" and if the situation turns ugly all bets are off; claiming "self-defense" here, especially if you are getting beat to death and have to draw and fire, almost certainly will result in extremely negative consequences due to the fact that you initiated the fight.

The very best thing someone can do in a situation like this, weather or not you're carrying a gun or not, is to just walk away. Let the piece of scum boil away in his own misery, you will be a stronger person not by beating him up but by not allowing his words to get the better of you.

Be the better man.

 

[1911 guy]

What is the quote? Don't go to stupid places with stupid people doing stupid things. Or, as a member here has put it, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Carrying a gun does not make you, me, or anybody else here a modern day John Wayne. It does not make me a superhero that's out to save the world, one gunfight at a time.

You're absolutely right that conflict de-escalation is the order of the day. And if you use your head and stay away from stupid people doing stupid things, there will be far less conflicts to de-escalate in the first place.

 

[Old Dog]

OP, you say you've only had your carry license since February -- and you've already learned this? You are to be commended, because it's always seemed to me that for many (even most) folks, it takes a far longer time period before they come to the realizations you did. And some folks never get it ...

Now that I carry, this thought process has changed considerably. I now feel that if AT ALL possible, I should get my family away from a bad situation, even if it looks to everyone around me that I might be a "wimp" or a "wuss".

A mature attitude, to be sure.

I know there is a large segment of society who would view this doctrine as "cowardly",

I submit that we should not care a whit about folks who would view walking away from an unnecessary fight as cowardly. This "large segment" is the same segment of society that has absolutely no comprehension of the true meaning of the words "respect" or "courage."

While I never shied way from a fist-fight in my younger days, ever since my last fight (a knockout in about 2 seconds -- and I was the guy on the floor) and the help of a couple mentors along the way, I finally got my ego in check and came to the same sort of understanding you have ('cept it took me a bit longer than three months).

 

[1911 guy]

Old Dog, my Grandfather used to box Golden Gloves when he was in the Army. He said he learned about the three crosses. Left cross, right cross and red cross. Said he gave it up because his hands hurt. Other guy kept stepping on his knuckles.

 

[hardluk1]

When I started to CC it did change how I acted around others but thanks to a knee cleanup gone really wrong many years ago my physical ability ihas slowly chipped down to a level that keaves me now only a shadow of what It once was. Today if some guy has his sights set on kick'n some butt my way I will try to talk them down while working at git gone but with my limits if push comes to shove I will have to tell a bg that if he press's far enough one of us, meaning my wife cc's too will simply have to kill them. I good ass whop'n may now do that to me. Then take my chances with the law system.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Avoidance is the key that many forget. Good Lessons to learn.

 

[another pake]

ADEE

Interesting thread!

Just this week my oldest son, 42, found himself in a very scary and potentially dangerous situation.

He and his family live in a small rural town. While he finishes constructing their new home they live in a second floor apartment of a house in town. Minutes after arriving home from work he heard an awful commotion, yelling, screaming, pounding on doors etc going on in the home downstairs. His own family was becoming very upset and he instructed them to remain inside of their apartment. Soon there was pounding on their door as well. In the course of a minute or two he realized that the estranged live in boyfriend of the woman downstairs was the perpetrator of most of the noise and all of the violence.

My son called 911 and gave them as much info as they requested. He was determined to stay out of the fray. Our small town has one officer on duty during that time of the day but 911 calls are dispatched through the County Sheriff who provide back-up but may be 10-30 minutes out, road time. Looking out their window he could see the perps vehicle in the driveway so he jotted down the license number to give to LE when they arrived. Minutes went by. The perp left the property in his car during which time my son went downstairs, identified himself through the door to his neighbor and asked whether she was all-right. She said that she was but was very frightened as her boyfriend was "violent and on meth". My son tried to convince her to leave her apartment and to return with her child to his, upstairs but she refused so he reassured her that LE had been called and were on the way. He returned upstairs to his family.

Two or three minutes later the perp returned pulling into the driveway at great speed. He ran to the house screaming, entered the back hall and kicked down the door to her apartment. Much more yelling and screaming now and this time he left again but was carrying her (their) toddler son. The boy was screaming, the mom was screaming, the perp was screaming... He threw the child into the back seat and jumped into his car to leave again. Hearing the commotion another neighbor stepped behind the car, briefly slowing the perp from leaving with the child. He slammed on the brakes and tried to accelerate around another parked car. When he did, his maneuvers threw the unsteady child around the car like a doll and more crying commenced.

At this point my son said that he knew he must get involved for the sake of the child. He quickly addressed the perp but did not confront him so much as ask him whether he needed any help. The man was visibly angry and was making lots of threats to everybody, as a small crowd had now gathered. My son tried to restore some sense of calm and the man, although still very agitated with everybody else seemed to accept him somewhat. My son worked to quiet the onlookers and keep them back as they seemed to only be making things worse.

This delaying tactic worked for several more minutes after which LE from both the city and the county arrived together. Their appearance sent the man into another wave of hyper activity but this time he was out of the vehicle and the two officers quickly had him on the ground and in cuffs.

My son was carrying. He never threatened, displayed, brandished or used it. But he said he never quit thinking that if he had to, it was there.

 

[bainter1212]

Good story. I feel bad for that little kid, with a meth head for a dad.

 

[MedWheeler]

bainter1212 writes:

My rule is altered from this somewhat -
I carry at all times when I am away from my house and with my family. I will not go without my firearm when I am with my kid (at the very least).

..to my:

First rule of concealed carry? Don't go anywhere with your firearm you would not go without it (acceptable exception: firing range.)

Yours isn't really an alteration; it's more an additional rule you follow (as do I.) Mine simply is that, if some place makes you nervous enough you would not go there unarmed, you should also not go there with a weapon. It doesn't address "all-time" carry.

 

[pezo]

The thing to remember is the dangerous armed criminal trying to car jack or home invade you is not the same animal as the jerk in the theater who won't shut his phone off. All the bad shoots seem to have this in common. Two otherwise lawful men bumping heads. One draws, shoots then claims self defense. This is a bad spot to be in. Your carrying a weapon to defend yourself in a life threading unavoidable situation. Not to bail you out of a mutual fight gone out of your favor.

 

[Joe Demko]

Broken teeth. Broken jaws. Broken eye sockets. Broken fingers. Etcetera. Etcetera. Etcetera. There are all kinds of souvenirs one can carry out of a fight, even if you "win." Then there are the apres brawl criminal and civil festivities. They offer keepsakes of their own. One does well not having a collection of such tchotchkes

 

[Fred Fuller]

Take a look at http://www.amazon.com/dp/1594391181/?tag=mh0b-20&hvadid=4162155306&ref=pd_sl_21j0cp32yn_ee

Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts Training & Real World Violence, by Rory Miller

It may not sound like much, or look like much, but this book IMHO is one of the most critical things any person who carries a gun regularly could read.

And see Miller's blog at http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/ as well.

If you don't know what the monkey dance is ... you need to learn the easy way!

 

[harrygunner]

I read Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme" before getting a permit. It has similar messages on avoidance.

For most, avoidance increases, given more power. Similar to how martial artists avoid fights. For some, awareness of what one can do leads to the realization others could be capable of doing the same. Some grow into the responsibility, not needing to prove themselves.

 

[skoro]

Avoidance is the best option. In rare cases, it's not an available option, though.

Moving up the ladder to deadly force is the last resort under the worst of circumstances that any of us will ever find ourselves.

 

[Spats McGee]

OP, you're on the right track. Carrying a firearm for self-defense is a very serious matter, and should be treated as such. It's better to have family and friends call you a wimp than have a judge call you "the defendant."

 

[gym]

You can avoid almost anything except someone intent on doing you harm

 

[huntsman]

I detest violence and that's why I carry a gun.

 

[armedwalleye]

Bainter,
I think my instructor said it best. You can afford to have a gun or you can afford to have a temper. You cannot afford to have both.

I think you're on the right track.