CCW makes you act more responsibly??

[12 Volt Man]

Here is an interesting story that happened to me over the weekend. I was on my way out to the west desert here in Utah to do some shooting. We had my Brother In Law's Suburban loaded with AK's, 10/22's, and Several Hand Guns. My Brother In Law and I both have Concealed Weapons Permits. He was carrying a 1911 in an IWB holster, and i had my XD9 concealled in a Pancake holster.
I was filling up his Suburban, and he took off inside to pay. I watched him walk by a truck with a fairly nice looking woman behind the drivers seat. He took a good long look at her as he walked by. Another guy in a "wife beater" came out of the gas station and walked towards my Brother In Law as he was checking out this girl. He came up and shoved my Brother In Law and said what the %#$@ are you looking at!! I take it this was his girlfriend.
I see the fight starting to break out. Was at an angle where the guy never would have seen me. I was actually on my way over to take this guy out. He would have been blindsided and never knew what hit him. This guy was a major dick and I wish we could have put him in his place.
As I got almost to where I could have thrown a punch at this guy, the guy takes a swing at my Brother In Law, so my Brother In Law ducks it and turned and walked away. I have never seen him walk away from a fight, especially when he did not start it. So I just walked on by the guy like I was on my way inside. I said to my Brother In Law, "What the #$%!, you are going to let that guy get away with that. He said, "I wanted to take him out more than anything, but I have my .45 on my hip." He felt like he would get in trouble if kicked a guys a$$ while carrying. The though never crossed my mind. I never even remembered that we were carrying. It wasn't a situation where the guns would have came out. Just a guy that would have got his world rocked real fast for being a dick.
The more I think about it, I feel like it was a good call. You never know what would have happened. If the LEOs came and found out we were carrying. Even though we basically would have been defending ourselves.

 

[TarpleyG]

It might have made a statement to the sheeple if one of you had laid this guy out and never resorted to presenting your firearm too...

GT

 

[Chipperman]

He made the right choice. We, as responsible people carrying firearms, need to take "The High Road" (sorry) and avoid petty altercations.

The GF will see what a jerk he is and leave him anyway.

 

[TarpleyG]

No she won't. She gets a kick out of stirring him up like that. Hell, she was probably winking and smiling at this guy as he walked by too. It's flattering to her that the BF acted this way and she is probably also abused in some fashion by the greaseball. Not that I was advocating beating the tar out of this fella, just pointing out a possible positive aspect if it did happen.

GT

 

[Coronach]

Your brother is right.

Getting in a fight with a perfect stranger over "his" girl in a gas station parking lot is pretty stupid. Yes, he did start it, but if you didn't take any reasonable steps to avoid it you are not being much more mature than he is. When you get down to it, you're still fighting over a girl like some 5th graders at recess.

(note: if he brings it and you try to be the bigger man and just can't get out of it, thats a different story. Note 2: I'm also not talking about legal definitions, here. Just plain common sense)

You're saying that you wouldn't draw your gun, or even think about it. OK, fine. But fights often turn into rasslin matches. Who's to say that he wouldn't draw your gun?

Its best to just not go there.

Mike

 

[spacemanspiff]

the 'macho man' complex is difficult to ignore, but there is never a true 'winner' in such situations. we as responsible adults who happen to be armed are always going to be expected to have the cooler head.

case in point: this last winter i was walking home one night and as i walked through the parking lot of a gas station some knucklehead who was about 15 yards away in his truck goosed the gas as i walked across the direction he was heading. what business does anyone have goosing the gas but to try and run down a pedestrian? so i shot him an angry look and uttered a curse word. apparently he can read lips, so he stops and follows me into the quickie mart, and confronts me. he asks "did you just call me an XXXXXXXXX?" i said "did you goose the gas as i walked in front of your truck?"
we bantered back and forth and he winds up telling me we should take it outside. i said 'well i've already said my piece, so theres not much that could be gained out there anymore.'
he goes back to his truck, but he drove around the lot and circled me twice more as i walked towards home.

i didnt back down. i didnt wuss out either. if he wanted to bring it, he could have. i'm glad he didnt, but in the future i'll just curse under my breath at idiots.

 

[Tamara]

TarpleyG,

No she won't. She gets a kick out of stirring him up like that. Hell, she was probably winking and smiling at this guy as he walked by too. It's flattering to her that the BF acted this way and she is probably also abused in some fashion by the greaseball.

Wow! That is one amazingly detailed prognostication, considering you were 2,000 miles away from the incident...

 

[HankB]

Since getting my CHL, I find less urge to clobber some idiot who richly deserves it.

Take road rage as one example. (There are others.) I was never a hothead who'd start playing "chicken" with someone on the highway, but think about it - this is Texas, where some people carry guns. AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHO!

Trying to start a fight with a stranger on the highway who may be armed is the mark of a fool. And if a fool flips me the bird or cuts me off, well, as long as I avoided a collision, what do I care what a fool thinks about me or my driving? Let him think I'm a wimp, too. I'm not drawing my sidearm unless I really, really need to use it. It's not there so I can threaten someone - even a fool - and there's no good reason to let him know what he's risking.

And there are lots of good reasons to just let it go.

And if he DOES continue to escalate, well, if I HAVE to resort to my sidearm, I'm going to be darned sure that all the escalation of the incident will be on HIS part, not mine.

Long winded, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Carlos Cabeza]

Sounds like a good time for the pepper spray or a tazer. A shot to the face and then GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE, QUICK !

Yes, I find that I am a more forgiving person when some loser who has to prove his manhood needs to feel like a man. I think it bothers them more to ignore the outburst and smile at 'em.

And yes I have been punched in the face, I just wiped the blood from my lip and walked away smiling ! He punched like a GIRL !

 

[Standing Wolf]

Nothing quite so dramatic as the comments above: I've noticed I'm driving much more conservatively these days, even going so far as to use turn signals sometimes.

Feels weird.

 

[El Tejon]

"The greatest victories are those achieved without fighting." Son Tejonzu, Walking the Earf and Learning Stuff, Book I, Chapter 3.

"We study violence so that we may avoid violence." Son Tejonzu, Book of the Five Sushi Rolls.

"Those criminal defense lawyers, tilecrawlers, are expensive." Son Tejonzu,
The Book of 'Book a Class to Thunder Ranch someone got in a fight and needs me.'

[Gong sounds]

 

[BerettaNut92]

Ahhh...one thousand kowtows, sage El Tejon-san!

[bowing]

 

[Carlos Cabeza]

Skunky, If I may ask...............What's a cow toe.

 

[blades67]

Tamara, TarpleyG might be 2000 miles away, but he was probably absolutely correct about that female. I've been in that situation more than a few times, a number of times while I was working for Salt River Recreation during tubing season. Women don't stay with men like that unless they like them acting like that.

 

[Doug444]

Carlos,
Just about anything you hook up to her. They aren't too particular.

 

[jdege]

One of the requirements of a successful claim of self-defense is that you were a "reluctant participant". That is, you did nothing to create the situation in which you were involved.

You can't hurl abuse at someone, then shoot him when he throws a punch.

And the thing we all need to understand is that we don't get to judge whether our involvement helped create the situation, the jury does.

If you're ever in an argument that escalates to gunfire, you'd better hope that the witnesses thought you were trying to disengage and de-escalate the situation.

It's going to cost you thousands, if you pull your gun, even if you don't pull the trigger. But if you shoot the bastard, and the jury decides that you weren't a reluctant participant, it's going to cost you a lot more than that (like missing the next ten years of your children's lives).

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

In Texas, the law for CHL participants is that you can use deadly force to repel deadly force. It's that way for everyone here, but let's limit to CHL players for purposes of discussion in this instance so as not to muddy the waters. If Cretin Wifebeater verbally insults you, you have no standing to cap him. If he takes a swing and misses, you are still not obliged to cap him, but to retreat if possible. If not possible to retreat to end/defuse a conflict and subject presses his assault, then I refer back to a case in Texas (Houston, I think) which occurred shortly after the CHL was enacted where 2 drivers in slow, heavy traffic swapped a little paint.

Driver A exited his vehicle in traffic and confronted Driver B, who was driving a delivery van. Driver A struck Driver B through his open window. Driver B was restrained by his seat belt in his vehicle. Traffic was gridlocked. Driver A attempted to strike Driver B again. Driver B is a legal CHL holder. Driver B fired, hitting Driver A. Driver A dies. Driver B is no-billed by the grand jury under the finding that he acted reasonably and was unable to retreat from an attack. The grand jury considered Driver A to be using deadly force in his physical attack on Driver B. Driver B was found by the grand jury to be justified in his response as he was restrained by his mandatory seat belt, unable to move his vehicle because of traffic, and was physically smaller in stature and build than his attacker, Driver A and was afraid for his life.

It came out later that Driver A, the decedent, had recently moved to Texas from the Northwest, where he had been involved in a similar altercation under similar circumstances, with obviously a much different outcome.

The grand jury's decision to no-bill Driver B did not deter the heirs of Driver A from filing a wrongful death case against Driver B. I do not recall the result of that suit.

My analysis- if you're in a situation where you're armed and threatened, you'd better make good and sure it's a 'me-or-him' situation before you unlimber that boomstick. In Texas with our legal codes being what they are, even then sometimes all bets are off. It's different if you're in a 'public place' or on your own land after dark, to use 2 disparate examples. I'm certain one of the 'real lawyers' on this board would be glad to enhance this should it stray too much from an accurate synopsis.

Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[P95Carry]

It is reassuring (and, anti's take note) .... that we are pretty much like-minded on this matter.

Carrying brings with it an inate and awesome responsibility .... such that our piece is only there for use ''in extremis'' ...... it's only perps and BG's that act differently.

I always hated to leave any situation feeling ''cowardly'' .. but with age comes a bit of extra wisdom i think and now it is more desirable to either ''defuze'' or even just ''get the hell out''. The types who start these kinda shindigs are generally total a$$holes who seem to find it an ego-boosting passtime ....... always seemingly something to prove and never satisfied.

As CCW's it is definitely better to back off and avoid ...... tho I guess there may be times when a judicious ''flash'' of the piece could just have a decisive ''calming'' effect if things are near outa hand.

Every situation will in the end be unique and judged on its own merits and demerits.

 

[El Tejon]

P95, it has been my experience that the "my honour, suhr, I say, I say, my honour" types are all young and uneducated. They do not know, they only feel. It is up to us to educate them.

 

[P95Carry]

It is up to us to educate them

We can try El Tej ..... we can but try!!

 

[Doc]

Since getting my CHL, I find less urge to clobber some idiot who richly deserves it.

couldn't say it better.

i find i have better situational awareness now, and avoid early and often.

 

[Jesse H]

I watched him walk by a truck with a fairly nice looking woman behind the drivers seat. He took a good long look at her as he walked by.

This guy was a major dick and I wish we could have put him in his place.

Sounds like there were 2 dicks in the situation.

 

[Ladybug]

No she won't. She gets a kick out of stirring him up like that. Hell, she was probably winking and smiling at this guy as he walked by too. It's flattering to her that the BF acted this way and she is probably also abused in some fashion by the greaseball. Not that I was advocating beating the tar out of this fella, just pointing out a possible positive aspect if it did happen.

Wait a minute... so the brother-in-law rudely stares at some "hot" woman, and the other guy has a high school moment and wants to pick a fight over it... and this is somehow the woman's fault?!? I'm sure she gets a kick out of being beaten and asks for it, and probably runs around at night in miniskirts just ASKING to be raped...

 

[Coronach]

Ok, ok...enough. Now we're all playing to stereotypes.

1. Its possible the woman in question enjoyed the display of macho posturing. We all know that these females exist.

2. Its possible that the bro-in-law leered at her like a neanderthal dropped into a Victoria Secrets lingerie show, and the boyfriend just couldn't pass that one up. We all know these males exist.

What we don;t know is if it was one, the other, both, or neither, and it really doesn't matter, does it?

Now, lets get back on the high road and on topic, mmmm'k?

Mike

 

[Zundfolge]

We had a similar discussion back on TFL.

I find that carrying is almost a zen thing ... I find myself less reactionary and less easy to anger while I'm armed. In fact I find myself more at ease and cheerful when armed.

I think its more then just that you know you will be able to defend yourself should the need arise, I think its more a sense of overall preparedness.

I also think that when armed, you have in the back of your mind the notion that your actions now carry the weight of life and death. When you compare the small transgressions of the idiots of the world against life and death, their actions seem so small and insignificant.

Maybe I'm getting too deep

Heinlein said it best "An armed society is a polite society."