CCW on a University Campus

[vis-à-vis]

The Utah Supreme court has ruled in a 4-1 decision that the University does not have the ability to ban guns because they are an entity of the State of Utah. And as such must follow the preemptive law of the state which allows for the carrying of concealed weapons.

In short the University argued on 2 counts. First the University argued they had autonomy to enact polices and rules which may at times conflict with state statute. Second they argued that to allow people with concealed weapons on Campus would stifle free speech as a student's dissenters would be unwilling to challenge them if they thought the person had a weapon.

In short the University felt that if someone disagreed with me and then voiced that disagreement that I would take my lawfully carried concealed weapon out and shoot them in the head.

This ruling actually had little to do with guns and more with autonomy. This ruling is only the 6th or so which has always held the University has NO autonomy when its policies conflict with state statute.

Now the University will take this to Federal court and argue the "free Speech" angle. I seriously doubt that a Federal judge is likely to rule that that a lawfully carried firearm has a chilling effect on Free speech, but..... If they go shopping around who knows. Such a overturning ruling would indeed have serious implications for free speech overall on college campus'

I am going to the University of Louisville and another College in town. Both prohibit CCW both in dorms and anywhere on Campus. However, state law does not. Do you think if I were to ccw on campus, I'd have a case if they ever imposed against me?

 

[Ezekiel]

Do you think if I were to ccw on campus, I'd have a case if they ever imposed against me?

I think I'd let someone else be the sacrificial white lab test mouse...

 

[vis-à-vis]

Gotta start somewhere. Maybe I'll just hire a lawyer (a pro-gun one who will find such a task to be so pleasurable he will do it for free) to fight the case for me in the form of a lawsuit.

 

[the naked prophet]

Good luck with that. Lawyers who do things for free are... very rare.

If it's not against the law, but only against policy, you have to make up your own mind. If it's worth being expelled (and what college would accept you if you were expelled for carrying a gun to class!) then go for it. If you'd rather not lose your college career, then that's that.

 

[mp510]

Do you think if I were to ccw on campus, I'd have a case if they ever imposed against me?
The Lord's Envoy is offline Report Bad Post

I have no clue what KY's laws are, but I do know what you claim University Policy says. Given that, I have no doubt that they would seek to kick you out of school and/ or housing for that. My recommendation is that you don't risk it.

 

[AJ Dual]

You would be given "administrative punishment" within the bounds of the school's charter, up to and probably including expulsion, and eviction from the dorms, however, you'd not be violating any state laws, unless you refused to leave etc.

So when all was said and done, you're academic record would be FUBAR, but your criminal record would be clean.

 

[Autolycus]

This is such a hard decision for many college students. Its strange that if you get caught with a bag of weed in your room you will be yelled at and given a slap on the wrist. Sometimes you will be asked to leave housing and told to fend for yourself. However if you brought a gun into the dorms you face expulsion. Yet one of those things is protected by an entire amendment in the Bill of RIghts...

At my old school (Southern Illinois University), the Campus Bookstore carried High-Times, Cannabis Consumer, Penthhouse, Perfect 10, Hustler, Playboy, and other similar magazines while they would not carry any gun/hunting magazines. I asked why and the girl at the counter said that the school did not want to encourage violent or illegal activity amongst the students.

I felt like such an ass for thinking about getting into an illegal activity like shooting. I should have just bought a High Times and been on my way.

 

[Autolycus]

Back on topic...

Its a really hard decision especially when you are going to school in a crappy area. Schools are great locations for predators to hang around as their is plenty of easy prey. Kids are living with tons of expensive things in their crappy little dorm rooms or apartments and they are not very familiar with the real world yet.

Its really not fair for students to be forced to make this choice, between safety and the right to defend myself versus a felony charge and being at the mercy of prisoners. I know quite a few people who carry in Illinois (the majority of them are college students) and I tell them it is simply not worth it. They dont understand that they will lose a lot if caught. Their right to own guns is at risk, getting kicked out of school (most carry on campus), their future chances of employment, and a few years in prison. They all say that they will deal with it if they are caught. Some believe that the officer will let them go as they are generally law abiding and work late at night as a grad student. That guy feels that since most of the cops are pro-gun in that area they will let him off. Others are not very concerned and not thinking with their better judgement.

But the real kicker is that they are not willing to get active in the fight for legal CCW here in IL. Its always something with them. None of them are NRA or any sort of progun organization.

Its so frustrating talking to them sometimes. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[Autolycus]

Double Tap.

 

[up_onus]

are they state schools, funded federally?

if so....expect them to say no to ccw.
my GUESS goes like this...
federals say, if you allow guns on campus....no funding!
much like the drinking age and federal highway funds....
would make sense?

 

[Prince Yamato]

Don't do the martyr thing.

Firstly, it will not go as planned. The University and local media will put up some headline like, "student arrested with concealed firearm- charges pending." They'll make you look like the next Charles Wittmann.

Secondly, you will have that charge on your record and when you fill out your next college application (after you were expelled from the first one) you will have to list why you were expelled and they'll give you one small line to do it on. On this line, you'll have to write "Firearms Violation" which could mean either what happened to you OR that you were in fact, the next Charles Wittmann.

Don't get me wrong, I support CCW on campus, but it needs to happen through legislation, not civil disobedience, at least, not yet. Society actually is (in the Red States at least) getting more pro-gun. Eventually, having a gun on campus may be considered not a big deal. Until then, stick to pepper spray and bitch about the call boxes like I do.

 

[Autolycus]

But at the same time they are state schools. They should be forced to recognize your rights. If a state school refused to allow Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Christians, or some other group to be on campus because they practice something else there would be hell to pay. So why should the 2nd Amendment go out the window when tehy are forced to recognize the others?

 

[Prince Yamato]

Tecumseh,

you have a great point AND you're fighting the college liberals with their own logic. Bonus points!

 

[Autolycus]

Prince Yamato:

Ah but it is a losing battle in my state. I am applying to out of state schools everywhere and hoping to figure out how to pay for it soon. Part of it is the gun thing but the big part is that I am sick of IL as I have been here for 23 years and never left. I want to spread my wings a little bit and see what else is out there.

Either way though you are correct that we have to pass it through legislation. Having any sort of transcript saying you were kicked out of school for having a gun will probably bar you from getting into another school. Even if I was to apply to Utah where the big thing right now is CCW on campus I doubt I would get in if I was kicked out of my current school due to being expelled for a gun on campus. It basically says to them that I have no respect for the rules of the university or authority. It may be legal at their school but it is not legal here so they can make a good case I will break other rules.

I posted a thread earlier about forcing STATE schools to put weapons lockers in for students who CCW. If it is legal on campus and they do not want it then they should be forced to provide a safe storage for the student. Its not my fault that they are making it hard for me to carry on campus.

An example being protests. If they do not want students to protest at random points then make a process for students to exercise their rights in such a manner that nobody is harmed. My old school had a place you could designate for a protest. If they can respect the 1st amendment by making reasonable acomadations then they could respect the 2nd amendment by doing the same for us. School lockers are a reasonable comprimise. (Though I hate the idea of compromise).

And I really recommend that people get involved with the RKBA fight. I hate people complaining that it is not legal but refusing to do anything to help it.

 

[Prince Yamato]

I think the CCW campuses should follow a simple rule:

"Out of sight, out of mind".

I know the open carry propenents will nail me for that one (I don't have a problem with open carry, but one thing at a time). I think that way, students still have the same academic environment with none of the distraction of eyeing their classmates' guns. Eventually, when they see that it doesn't make campus anymore dangerous, they'll forget about the fact that fellow students carry. It's kind of like a "no flashy clothing rule" except for weapons. Nothing to cause a distraction in an academic environment.

Like I said before (on previous threads) I think that on campus CCW is not an issue of IF, but WHEN. If approached in a professional and concise manner, people will see the logic behind it.

 

[aspen1964]

Carry a gun to class?..it isn't a good idea...

 

[Autolycus]

Why is it a bad idea Aspen1964? What is the harm? Wouldnt that logic apply everywhere then?

 

[quazi]

We're not even allowed to have pepper spray on my campus. In fact, now that I think about it, my steak knife might even be contraband.

Like someone said before, it is probably an issue with federal funding as I live in a very gun friendly state.

Last year I took a pistol marksmanship class on campus. I wasn't even allowed to keep ammunition for the class in my dorm room. I couldn't buy .22lr ammo either, because it can be used in a hand gun and I'm not 21. Oh well, back to my point, the instructor said that under state law we could carry on campus, but that he'd rather not fight the University's lawyers. I think he made a good point.

 

[Autolycus]

Quazi:

Thats just harsh.

 

[quazi]

It could be worse. I could be going to school in England. I guess I should really be counting my blessings.

 

[Car Knocker]

my GUESS goes like this...
federals say, if you allow guns on campus....no funding!
much like the drinking age and federal highway funds....
would make sense?

Nope, that's not it. Non-students and non-employees can legally CCW on Utah public university and college campuses and in buildings. Utah CFP holders (including employees) can legally carry in schools (at least two major school districts allow it in their employee policy manuals). Federal funding is not an issue - we still receive our share.

 

[buck00]

By agreeing to attend the university, you also agree to abide by their rules. Thus your legal right to CCW ends when you enter the classroom.

If you want to carry, you can carry, just don't let anyone find out.


Weigh the pro's and con's. Do the benefits of carrying (proection) outweigh the risks? (knowing you could be expelled if caught) If you go to school in the inner city or a bad area, it might be a very good idea. But if the campus has very low crime, it might not be worth the risk.

Not to sound less-than-THR here, but pepper spray might be a better self defense tool on campus. Imagine you are walking to your car after class at night, and some drunken frat types try to start a fight with you or attack you. If you draw a pistol on them, you're done, you are getting booted from school. If you spray them with mace, you have neutralized them and most likely aren't getting kicked out of school.