Ccw reciprocity? How is it determined?

[thefish]

I have a trip coming up to Maine, and it seems Maine does not recognize the colorado chl permit.

I know there are probably a myriad of political reasons for this, but is there an abridged explanation of why some states have reciprocity with some states, and not others?

Political climate? Favors and deals?

How often does it change?

 

[Ed Ames]

Carry laws typically require certain conditions be met in order to grant reciprocity. Different states have different conditions. It is then usually up to the state AG or the like to decide on specific policies, which can introduce politics.

Example conditions may be equivalent training or proficiency demonstration (meaning "we'll honor state X's license because they require 8 hours of classroom time plus a live fire proficiency test; we won't honor state Y's because they just ask for $20 and a filled out form.), granting reciprocity ("we'll honor yours if you honor ours"), and so on.

It is a mess, and the specific reciprocity rules can change due to interpretation changes. E.g. if Colorado changes their rules, some time later Maine may reevaluate and add CO...or perhaps a state that currently has reciprocity w/ Colorado will drop CO out.

 

[Jeff H]

No idea as to all the complex reasons to answer the question of Why.

But at handgunlaw.us you can look up all the restrictions and reciprocity agreements.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

It's not all that deep. Reciprocity is determined by the Attorney General of each state. There is no set rules on making a reciprocity agreement, it's up to the Attorney General and if it's an anti-gun state the agreement, or none-agreement will follow.

Some states will honor all other states licenses, (15 states or so) some states have agreements with 35 or more states, some states like CA, CT, NY or NJ have agreements with NO other states.

This is very informative:
http://handgunlaw.us/states/USStatesMyStateHonors.pdf

 

[RustyShackelford]

Wheel & Deal....

There are a few factors of how/why states change gun laws or reciprocal agreements.
Mainly, it's changed when one AG(state atty general) says; "hey, you aren't holding up your end" or "we don't think you have strict enough regulations for training or qualifications" to a state official or AG.
Nevada cut Florida because a few NRA class instructors were caught using airsoft & pellet guns for CCW classes.

Some states change due to political issues or high profile events.

 

[ugaarguy]

Moved to legal since this is legal question.

 

[Edster12]

Not sure how/what/or why they do or don't.

Traveling to Maine you have two options.

1) Apply for a non-resident permit. (If you are going to do it, do it now. Just changed the laws and the price is going up in a year or so) I think that they are down to a 60 day approval cycle again.

2) Open carry. Just remember NO loaded gun in vehicle!!!

 

[pintler]

It's not all that deep. Reciprocity is determined by the Attorney General of each state. There is no set rules on making a reciprocity agreement, it's up to the Attorney General

That's not true for all states, e.g. the requirements in WA are:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.073

The AG does maintain a state specific list, but he/she has to follow 9.41.073:
http://www.atg.wa.gov/ConcealedWeapons/Reciprocity.aspx

 

[ilbob]

The AG does not determine it. The law creating the LTC or whatever it is called will determine what if any reciprocity there is.

Some states grant unilateral reciprocity. In other words, they accept any other state's permit without condition.

Some states require mutual reciprocity. They only grant reciprocity to states that will accept their permits. Usually there is some process by which an agreement is made between the AGs of each state on this, but the AGs have no power to determine this on their own.

Some states have specific requirements such as training that they require to accept the other state's permit.

It is a big mess.

 

[NavyLCDR]

It's not all that deep. Reciprocity is determined by the Attorney General of each state. There is no set rules on making a reciprocity agreement, it's up to the Attorney General and if it's an anti-gun state the agreement, or none-agreement will follow.

Completely 100% incorrect. The legislature of the state determines reciprocity and there certainly are set rules called statutes. The legislature may delegate authority and/or responsibility to the AG to determine what other states meet the requirements in statutes, but it is the legislature that grants that authority via statutes.

In Maine the statute is:
http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/25/title25sec2001-A.html

F. A handgun carried by a person to whom a valid permit to carry a concealed handgun has been issued by another state if a permit to carry a concealed handgun issued from that state has been granted reciprocity. The Chief of the State Police may enter into reciprocity agreements with any other states that meet the requirements of this paragraph. Reciprocity may be granted to a permit to carry a concealed handgun issued from another state if:
(1) The other state that issued the permit to carry a concealed handgun has substantially equivalent or stricter requirements for the issuance of a permit to carry a concealed handgun; and
(2) The other state that issued the permit to carry a concealed handgun observes the same rules of reciprocity regarding a person issued a permit to carry a concealed handgun under this chapter; [2011, c. 691, Pt. A, §24 (RPR).]

In Maine, it is the Chief of the State Police that determines reciprocity if conditions (1) and (2) are met, not the Attorney General, and not at his/her sole discretion.

 

[Frosty Dave]

I don't know about the states north of me, but if it's difficult to find a route, you can always swing south through Oklahoma. Oklahoma honors any CCL from any other state.

That law has changed a few times in the past decade or so. At one time, OK only honored licenses that were issued from a state with a similar license process; background check, training, etc, and there had to be a written reciprocity agreement with the state. That brought on messy problems like OK and another state being willing to write up a reciprocity agreement BUT with neither state already having a reciprocity agreement, neither was authorized to issue one.

OK finally simplified the process with a unilateral "bring it" law. It's been part of a slow but consistent trend of gun law progress.

 

[Midwest]

Interesting that Kentucky accepts New Jersey Carry Permits, but New Jersey doesn't accept Kentucky's permit (or any other state for that matter).

http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html

"Kentucky Honors Permits from these States:
Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, New York City, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming"


"New Jersey Does Not Honor Permits from these States:
Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Guam, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, New York, New York City, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virgin Islands, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming, American Samoa, District of Columbia, N. Mariana Islands"

.

 

[pendennis]

There is the "Full Faith and Credit" clause in the U.S. Constitution (Article IV, Section 1.). One would think that this would be sufficient to insure that laws of one state would be recognized fully by the other states.

However, the second clause is the "kicker". "And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof.

Congress must pass a law, which would require the most restrictive states to recognize the laws of the most liberal states. Unless, and until The Congress acts, then universal carry among the several states remains a dream. With a Democrat controlled Senate and a Democrat President, there's virtually no chance of any law being enacted.

 

[Speedo66]

Then you have NY, they don't accept anybody's. NYC doesn't even accept the rest of NYS.

And it's written in law, not subject to any police or AG interpretation.

Only exception is limited to out of state shooters entering for competition.

 

[thefish]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the responses.
Hopefully someday we will have a simplified system. However, I doubt it will happen anytime soon.

 

[josephbw]

In Ohio, they only have reciprocity with states that meet or exceed the training that is required for an Ohio resident to get a CCW in Ohio.

 

[Looking for Knowledge]

I hate how some states, like WA. take the "that other states' requirements are more strict, so they won't honor our CCW's. So we are not honoring theirs'." AGs should default to a same or more stringent allowed here.

 

[NavyLCDR]

AGs should default to a same or more stringent allowed here.

Once again, it is NOT the AG's decision. It is a matter of statutory law. In this case, RCW 9.41.073:

RCW 9.41.073
Concealed pistol license — Reciprocity.

(1)(a) A person licensed to carry a pistol in a state the laws of which recognize and give effect in that state to a concealed pistol license issued under the laws of the state of Washington is authorized to carry a concealed pistol in this state if:

 

[Looking for Knowledge]

Okay, so the state legislature should default to, "a same or more stringent allowed here."

 

[astra600]

Some states (southwest) just get into pissing matches. Reciprocity this month, none next month.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Once again, it is NOT the AG's decision. It is a matter of statutory law. In this case, RCW 9.41.073

That may be the case in your state, but individual state statutes may delegate that responsibility to different groups, including the Office of the Attorney General. In my state, the Commissioner of the Department of Public Safety is responsible for maintaining the reciprocity list, and in our case, it's actually a negative list- she maintains a list of those states whose permit requirements are NOT substantially similar to our own, and everyone else can carry on their home state permit.

 

[brickeyee]

"There is the "Full Faith and Credit" clause in the U.S. Constitution (Article IV, Section 1.). One would think that this would be sufficient to insure that laws of one state would be recognized fully by the other states."

Even though courts in many jurisdictions issue the permits, they are NOT covered by the 'full faith and credit' any more than doctor's licenses, engineering licenses, nursing licenses, barber's licenses, plumbing, electrical, contractor, etc.
There are serious questions if Congress even has the power to require states to accept each others 'licenses' and 'permits' outside narrow judicial issues.

You do know it is by agreements between the states that even your driver's license is honored by other states?
They are NOT 'acts of the court' even though the courts may be an administrative vehicle.

 

[pendennis]

"There is the "Full Faith and Credit" clause in the U.S. Constitution (Article IV, Section 1.). One would think that this would be sufficient to insure that laws of one state would be recognized fully by the other states."

Even though courts in many jurisdictions issue the permits, they are NOT covered by the 'full faith and credit' any more than doctor's licenses, engineering licenses, nursing licenses, barber's licenses, plumbing, electrical, contractor, etc.
There are serious questions if Congress even has the power to require states to accept each others 'licenses' and 'permits' outside narrow judicial issues.

You do know it is by agreements between the states that even your driver's license is honored by other states?
They are NOT 'acts of the court' even though the courts may be an administrative vehicle.

Please see my post (#13). It's up to Congress to interpret the "full faith and credit" clause.

Professional licenses are privileges, and not rights guaranteed under the U.S. Constitution. Those licenses generally fall under "commerce" laws. And various professional organizations work with state regulatory boards to allow professionals practice across state lines with a minimum of complexity. Doctors are routinely granted privileges to practice in states other than their own, provided they're in good standing with their home state medical boards. The privilege to practice professionally is not the same as exercising one's constitutional rights.

I seriously doubt that New York or New Jersey would attempt to stop a political speech by an out-of-state candidate. The ACLU would be in the local Federal court getting a permanent injunction before the ink dried on such laws.

 

[Red Wind]

Then you have NY, they don't accept anybody's. NYC doesn't even accept the rest of NYS.

And it's written in law, not subject to any police or AG interpretation.

Only exception is limited to out of state shooters entering for competition

You keep complaining, but you still live there. So do more than 20 of my 1st cousins. In Goshen,Middletown, Monticello, Lake Huntington,Port Jervis,etc. They've lived there all their lives, since the 1930's, many have been very successful, and they will die there.

And I visit them all and I understand. C'est la vie.