CCW renwal drills and people's reactions

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hillbilly

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I'm going on my third year of CCW instructing in the state of Arkansas.

In Arkansas, permit holders must "renew" their permits every four years. Part of the renewal process is going to a state-police-certified CCW instructor for a little bit of range time and some official paperwork.

When folks come for a renewal at my range, they shoot quite a bit.

They shoot two-handed, aimed fire at seven yards.

They shoot one-handed "point shooting" at three yards.

They shoot one-handed "retention position" at contact distance.

They shoot the Tueller drill.

And then, they shoot a two-target situation wherein they have the option to take cover. The two targets are at varying ranges....one about two yards from the shooter, and the other about seven yards away.

I know it might be hard for folks to "visualize" two cardboard targets being actual threats to themselves. I even have made one of the targets a masked man with a gun to add a little more realism.

But still, some of the reactions I see are very interesting.

The very first option I always show them is running away.

They've just shot the Tueller drill and now know how far away somebody can get before a person with a gun in hand can get a shot off.

So the first time, if the shooter is physically able, I have him or her cut and run from the threat. And I have them put their gun down on the range table during the time that their response is to run away so they aren't running with a loaded gun in hand.

The second option is to shoot their way out of the situation.

I tell the shooter that the two targets are Billybob and Otis, the Meth-head brothers, who've been stalking the shooter down at the Wal-Mart, and that the shooter has tried and tried to evade them, but has been followed out into the parking lot.

Even though cover is right there in front of them, only a very few actually take cover (which is a chunk of drywall about three feet tall and five feet wide propped up between log chunks). And yes, my "cover" has a lot of bullet holes in it along the top edge where folks have taken cover so well that they've shot through it. I point out the bullet holes and ask the shooters what they think would have happened to those bullets if the drywall had been the hood or a pickup truck or something like that.

Most don't take cover their first time shooting the drill. I have them put their gun down, and ask them to walk downrange and stand near the farthest target, and then I walk through (with no gun, of course) twice....first without taking cover, and then with taking cover.

Then, they usually see the light and take cover the next couple of times they shoot the drill.

Here's another observation. In the two-target stage, I stand behind the shooter, and ask him or her to talk the two assailants down.

Most of the time, the shooter isn't into it and is rather meekly saying something like "I don't want no trouble."

I usually suggest that they shout, in a deep, authoritative voice, "GO AWAY! I'VE CALLED THE POLICE!!!!" I have them practice a couple of times before we actually do it live.

The signal for the student to do something to solve the situation is when I shout a direct threat, as spoken by one of the assailants, after the student has tried to talk the assailants down.

The shooter yells, "GO AWAY, I"VE CALLED THE POLICE and then I usually holler, very loudly, something like "Police, Hell! Let's KILL HIM, BILLYBOB!"

Some folks hear that direct and unmistakable threat and actually take action...either turning to run away or taking cover and opening fire on the targets.

But a significant number of them stay rooted in place, sometimes still meekly saying "Now boys, I don't want no trouble," or just saying "I really mean it now, I've called the police." Some just stand there silently.

Sometimes they even reinforce their comments with gentle, open-handed gestures. "I mean it boys. Just go away please."

Usually I have to get right in the ears of these nonaction folks screaming "THEY'RE GONNA KILL YOU! KILL YOU! KILL YOU! HERE THEY COME, THEY'RE COMING TO KILL YOU RIGHT NOW!"

And then, they finally decide to do something.

But a significant number of folks don't act, even when I'm behind them screaming in their ears.

The other thing that almost always happens is that the shooter makes a comment that the Tueller Drill and shooting at two "assailants" while having to take cover is nothing at all like target shooting.

I really hope that someday I can have a moving target set up with 3-D realistic targets.

But I do find it interesting how many folks react to the little stress I add to the situation by merely not reacting at all.

hillbilly
 
I like the drills that you run, make people think. When i went thru the Maritime Law Enforcement Acadamy we used a movie screen and blank firing .45s and then filmed it for our shoot/don't shoot training,the first time thru they would ask afterwards how many shots you fired.
Most people couldn't remember(myself included) the second time you tended to pay attention more. Some people would stand there and do nothing others would go for slide lock :what: Stress does funny things to you and untill you train to over come it it will freeze you up.
 
hillbilly ~

Yep, that squares with what I've seen too.

The one encouraging thing is that when you see these folks again, they will very likely have internalized the lesson. It just takes time.

pax
 
hillbilly,
I wish I was in your neck of the woods, that sounds fun. I am up for renewal and all we do here in Baxter County is shoot 2 mags at a target 15 feet away.

Mike
 
Hey Hillbilly, You wouldn't happen to have been a drill instructor in a previous life? Seems I recall those exact methods of screaming during boot camp. :scrutiny:

Actually though, up here in MA you don't need to take a refresher class when you need to renew. Makes the process easier, but I think a course like you teach would definitely benefit us. For the most part, I bet most that CCW up here only practice drawing and firing at standing targets without a lot of the more intangebles that would come with an actual crisis.
 
The two targets are at varying ranges....one about two yards from the shooter, and the other about seven yards away

At this point, is it assumed that the targets representing the bad guys are armed? If so, I question the validity of teaching people to turn their back on an armed threat to run away. The "Tueller drill" works both ways, you know, and getting into a situation where you are being chased by an armed attacker would not be good.

Personally, I'd reccomend training that would teach them to move LATERALLY away from the bad guys. That way they would still increase the distance between themselves and the attacker and would still be able to SEE the attacker and react.

I do commend you for trying to add value to the your training. Forgive me if I misunderstand the specifics of the drills. From the description though, it sounds like they are literally "turning tail and running away," and I question the safety of that approach against an armed attacker.
 
Sounds like a good class. The problem is we are raised to "be nice" and not yell. It's incredible to see how much it takes to get some people "fightin' mad."
all we do here in Baxter County is shoot 2 mags at a target 15 feet away
All I do in Pa. is pay my $19.00 and swear I'm not crazy. I enjoy the convenience but it is a little scarey that people are all around me with concealed weapons and no clue as to the complex laws that will be applied if they ever use them.
 
Kudos to Hillbilly!

I've seen too many "classes" that teach the fine points of shooting and when an experienced shooter shows up they teach...the fine points of shooting.
I'm not in your neck of the woods, but if I were I'd be signing up for a weekend class. Most folks have no idea what stress will do to them and have never thought out a response to what may happen or be said leading up to or possibly to defuse a situation.

Keep it up!
 
Rockriver wrote:

Hey Hillbilly, You wouldn't happen to have been a drill instructor in a previous life? Seems I recall those exact methods of screaming during boot camp.



No, never been a DI, at least to my knowledge. I make no claims about any "past lives" that I may or may not have had.

I am the oldest son of a former high school football coach, if that counts.

And I don't scream in anyone's ears until they fail to react to the situation at hand.

Again, I don't start off screaming at anyone.

I don't resort to screaming until a student hears the magic words "I'm gonna KILL YOU!" and then just stands there rooted in place.

Again, I use the DI type screaming only on folks who show no reaction at all.

As long as the student is either A) beating feet or B) taking cover in order to fire or C) firing, I don't scream at all.

Another poster expressed concern about showing students the option of running away, instead of moving laterally.

I see your point, but to me, if I can get away quickly and efficiently by turning my back and sprinting, that's what I'm going to do.

Moving laterally quite simply doesn't put enough space between me and the assailant quickly enough. Only turning and sprinting full speed puts enough distance between me and them.

And I plan on sprinting right at a well-lighted area full of other people and I plan on screaming FIRE FIRE FIRE at the top of my very big lungs, too.

I've seen other instructors teach this technique in all sorts of forms, including the classic ruse of yelling "LOOK OUT!" and pointing behind the assailant, or at the ground beside the assailant, and then turning to walk away quickly or even run away.

hillbilly
 
Just how much time do you have allotted for these renewal classes?

Are you able to assume a certain level of skill before diving into these drills?

The reason I ask is my Sheriff in California decided he wanted to offer the four hour renewal class so his firearms instructors could assess the skills of the CCW permit holders in the county. The instructors assumed a much higher level of skill than was rational and ended up with some students almost hurting themselves or others in the class. One famous exercise that comes to mind is the shooter fends off a simulated assault at contact range from the target with his 'support' hand while drawing and firing with the 'strong' hand. After a couple instances where the shooter almost shot himself in the hand, the instructors decided to abandon that drill.

I think if I was running a CCW renewal class, I would stick to the basics required by the state and save the advanced stuff for those students who wanted to come back and pay for the experience.

Pilgrim
 
1) The renewal students are paying for it.

2) Arkansas has no "minimum standards" for renewal of a CCW. Arkansas has no "minimum standards" for initial qualification for a CCW. All "qualifications" are left to the discretion of the individual instructor.

3) All the drills the students do on my range are pared down and pretty basic.

I've had everybody out here from IDPA competitors to graduates of the Kennedy Special Warfare School to people who are literally firing their first shots with a handgun.

I've yet to have a student in three years not be able to accomplish these drills with at least some sort of success.

I've had women who are nervous around guns accomplish these drills. I've seen shaky, 80-year-old men accomplish these drills.

And even when they don't have much success, they still learn something in the process.

For example, if a shooter finds he can't hit well while thinking about taking cover, we break it down into basic steps, repeat the drill until success happens, and the student gets a set of things to go practice on his own.

I use the same set of drills for both the initial CCW class and the renewal process.

Two-handed shooting using the sights at seven yards.

One-handed point-shooting from three yards.

One-handed rentention shooting from less than one yard (no pushing on the target. I demonstrate the technique for them, but tell them on the range, we will just shoot one-handed and keep the off hand well out of the way, and if they'd like to dry-fire practice the offhand push at home, then they can go for it there)

Then, Tueller drill, with the shooter using two-handed sighted fire from seven yards with either me or another student doing the running.

Finally, the two targets with the option to take cover.

And I never ask anyone to complete a drill that they are physically incapable of completing.

Folks in wheelchairs or with arthritic knees who require a cane to walk around cannot, of course, use "running away" as a realistic response to two armed assailants.

I'm a professional teacher by trade and career experience.

Here's something I know from repeated personal experience.

If you set relatively high standards and expectations, students rise to meet them.

If you set ridiculously low standards and expectations, then students also sink to meet those.

Attitude is everything. Every single outcome, including failure, is a learning experience.

And as I tell lots and lots of folks who come out to my range, if they try something out there that doesn't work, they get a chance to learn from it without anyone dying in the process.

hillbilly
 
If you set relatively high standards and expectations, students rise to meet them.

If you set ridiculously low standards and expectations, then students also sink to meet those.

Attitude is everything. Every single outcome, including failure, is a learning experience.

Very true and very well put.

All criticisms aside, you sound like the kind of guy I'd like to train with.
 
I took Hillbilly's course and recommend it highly. Good practical training for real world self defense situations. Fun too.

999
 
I am confused here. Are you required by law to go through the repeated shouting theater before you cap the punks? It seems that only increases the chances that you would have less time for proper fire and get killed as a reward...

Why not just take cover, take aim, and shout "FREEZE!" No compliance means a double tap in the center of gravity. Nice, clean, and simple. They saw the gun and they had the chance to stop. Self-defense.

Has there been a recorded case in which "Guys, I want no trouble" has produced the desired effect of avoidance of violence? More likely, the opposite is true - the perps take heart in that because they think you are a pushover.

Also, what are these people doing carrying guns if they have no heart to use them? That just makes them even more likely to get very hurt, and also hurt others by error or accident. Scary.

:mad:
 
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