CCW Victimization Statistics?

[rhubarb]

The Texas Department of Public Safety maintains on their website statistics concerning criminal convictions of concealed handgun licensees. It is interesting and helpful to show that people licensed to carry concealed commit violent crimes at a small fraction of the rate of the general population.

What about victimization, though? Is a person carrying a concealed handgun less likely to be the victim of a violent crime? I'm sure this is the case, but I'd like to see facts.

It would perhaps be a better argument for concealed carry if we had these statistics from a may-issue state like California. As I understand, in California and New York you must show that you need a gun to protect your life to get a concealed handgun license. The applicant is presumably at higher risk to be a victim of crime. If it could be shown that these licensees were less likely to be victimized, it would be a powerful incentive to secure a license, making concealed carry more widespread.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

What about victimization, though? Is a person carrying a concealed handgun less likely to be the victim of a violent crime? I'm sure this is the case, but I'd like to see

So you think that just since a person has a gun that somehow there is a magical protective umbrella that keeps the person from being a victim of a crime? Interesting notion, but since no crime would be committed, then no statistics could be gathered and hence no data would be available from which arguments could be made that CCW/CHL folks are less often victims of crime.

If you do think this and since CCW/CHLs must remain concealed, then would you attribute this success to the fact that the CCW/CHL person simply projects some sort of body language that retards aggressors?

Maybe CCW/CHL holders just modify their behavior such that they don't go into bad areas since they started carrying, are less likely to argue with others, etc. If so, the same result could be had without guns.

Maybe you meant to say that CCW/CHL folks were less successfully victimized by bad guys, meaning that the CCW/CHL folks managed to display, draw, or fire their guns at bad guys thereby curtailing a crime. If so, this does not mean they were not a victim of a crime. They were a victim of a crime that was not successful as a crime would have still been committed against the CCW/CHL person such as assault, attempted robbery, etc. So while the CCW/CHL person might be victorious, the person was still the victim of a an attempted crime and hence would not support your suggestion that CCW/CHL folks are less often victimized. It would show they are victimized, but maybe not as successfully victimized.

Unfortunately, I don't believe DPS keeps records on crimes against CHL holders, nor does any particular police department. So I doubt there are data out there that you could use.

 

[geekWithA.45]

I don't know that victimization rates of permit holders would be a meaningful figure.

For starters, the sample is already skewed to those who posess initiative, self confidence, and respect for the law, all factors that invariably display themselves in subtle ways, and which criminals take into account during the victim selection process.

 

[antsi]

--------quote-----------
So you think that just since a person has a gun that somehow there is a magical protective umbrella that keeps the person from being a victim of a crime?
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Boy, that's really reading a lot into the original question that wasn't there. I don't think anyone is proposing that guns are a magical talisman against victimization. However, they may be a useful tool to help one prevent being victimized. A CCW permit might also be a secondary marker of an individual who is thoughtful about the potential for bad things happening and taking steps to prevent them or respond appropriately should they occur. Either way, there could be an inverse correlation between crime victimization and CCW permits - even without any magical effects.

 

[ZeSpectre]

I think that it would be essentially impossible to determine the actual amount of deterrence effect that CCW has. As others have mentioned, many CCW persons really do give off a small bit of extra confidence type behavior (even if they don’t realize they are doing it) and that is the sort of thing that tends to steer criminals (most of whom are abject cowards in the first place) away.

So the “crime” is prevented and therefore, essentially, never existed in the first place. Nothing to report, thus no statistics.

Now if we could somehow magically add those 'prevented' incidents to the actual 'I had to use my CCW' incidents, well I kinda suspect we'd have a pretty large number.

 

[Pilgrim]

I've seen holders of CA CCW permits who still walk around head up and locked in Condition 'White'. They only carry their weapon when they are 'traveling'. It never occurs to them that bad things can happen at home.

Pilgrim

 

[Condition Plaid]

California cannot be looked at as a May Issue state in totality since the state does not issue CCW licenses. County sheriffs and city police chiefs do (though most cities defer issuance to their county sheriff). As such, the sheriffs make the decisions. Some are completely shall issue, mostly in the more rural counties. Some are as close to shall issue as they can be while still 'requiring' a demonstrated good cause. Sheriff Mike Carona of Orange County is such a sheriff. Almost any non-felon can get issued in Orange County if they do a little homework. Other county sheriffs, like Lee Baca of Los Angeles county, issue capriciously to favored classes of citizens.

 

[Hypnogator]

For starters, the sample is already skewed to those who posess initiative, self confidence, and respect for the law, all factors that invariably display themselves in subtle ways, and which criminals take into account during the victim selection process.

Good point. Criminals are the world's best thumbnail psychologists. Those that choose to carry concealed are likely to be far more situationally aware, and won't display the signs of fear or timidity that predators look for.

Once upon a time, back in the day, one of our secretaries made a comment about my formidable appearance. I remarked that I was wearing a sportcoat over my weapon, so it was totally concealed. She replied "Yes, but you have that 'kapow' look in your eyes!" I probably still do.

 

[Zundfolge]

Aside from CCW Victimization stats I'd also like to know if CCW holders who are victims of violent crime escape alive more often (or are injured less) or if the reverse is true (or if it doesn't matter).

 

[rhubarb]

Talisman was the word I was going to use. I thought I wouldn't need to point out that I didn't think of a gun as a magic anti-evil tool as this is the High Road, not some left-wing anti board. I understand the limitations both in situations where a gun should be used and in the effectiveness of a handgun to stop a threat.

I completely agree that carrying a gun is something that is most likely to be done by someone who has already determined that they will not be a victim. It is not uncommon for a poster here to state that since they began carrying that they feel a heightened sense of awareness and, due to the presence of the gun, think more about how to deal with possible circumstances than when they didn't carry. I am sure that criminals pick up on the demeanor of this type of person, and this makes concealed carry holders less likely to be victims. The whole idea of one's attitude and lucky keychain as a part of personal defense is a worthy subject of discussion.

In the long run, however, whether a person is less likely to be a victim of a violent crime is due more to the physical presence of a hidden gun or a person's mindset is irrelevant to the question. Really, whether a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun carries or not isn't relevant. The current statistics on the TXDPS website don't differentiate between crimes committed by CHL holders when the were carrying and when they weren't. The point of the statistics is to justify the safety of the general populace when turning people loose on the streets with a concealed handgun. I want statistics concerning the safety of CHL holders.

Concealed carry is good, right? To encourage people to accept concealed carry, proponents often point to statistics showing that CHL holders are less likely to commit crimes. As if the assumption already exists that carrying a weapon causes one to commit crimes. To me, the point of carrying is to help avoid being a victim. Therefore, I would like factual evidence from a reputable source that a concealed handgun licensee is less likely to be a victim of a crime. If not, poll THR:
a)I have a CHL and have been a victim of violent crime since acquiring it.
b)I have a CHL and have not been a victim since acquiring it.
c)I don't have a CHL and have been a victim of violent crime
d)I don't have a CHL and have not been a victim of violent crime

Use of one's CCW is irrelevant to the question. I know that if I draw, I or someone close to me will have already been a victim of a violent crime.

 

[wdlsguy]

This is completely anecdotal, but I attended a CHL class in the Houston area earlier this year, and there were a number of people applying for CHLs who had recently been victims of violent crimes. I guess they suddenly realized having a CHL was a good idea.

 

[Hardtarget]

I've heard that statistics are like bikinis...in that what they show is interesting, but what they hide is critical. Got to be careful.
Mark.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

So you think that just since a person has a gun that somehow there is a magical protective umbrella that keeps the person from being a victim of a crime? Interesting notion, but since no crime would be committed, then no statistics could be gathered and hence no data would be available from which arguments could be made that CCW/CHL folks are less often victims of crime.

Actually, that's wrong. Consider two populations -- people with CCW and people without. We already collect statistics on victimization of the general population and can collect similar statistics on those with CCW.

 

[TexasRifleman]

s a person carrying a concealed handgun less likely to be the victim of a violent crime? I'm sure this is the case, but I'd like to see facts.

I think the real interesting data would be how many CCW victims of violent crime are able to stop the attack vs unarmed victims.

The posts above stating that a weapon carrier is less likely to be a victim doesn't make sense, if the weapon is concealed anyway.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I think the real interesting data would be how many CCW victims of violent crime are able to stop the attack vs unarmed victims.

Go to John Lott's website for that information.

The posts above stating that a weapon carrier is less likely to be a victim doesn't make sense, if the weapon is concealed anyway.

Actually, they do -- for two reasons:

1. A person carrying a weapon is more likely to understand the need to be in Condition Yellow and to avoid situations where someone might attack him.

2. Most defensive uses of a handgun do not result in shots fired. As soon as the "victim" draws -- or even tells a threatening person that he's armed -- the attacker tends to back off. What would have been a mugging or assault simply fizzles out.

 

[TexasRifleman]

1. A person carrying a weapon is more likely to understand the need to be in Condition Yellow and to avoid situations where someone might attack him.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with that one.

The average High Road participant is unfortunately NOT the average concealed carrier.

There are some real dolts out there

But yes I agree with your other points, especially #2 since it happened to me.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I'll have to respectfully disagree with that one.

The average High Road participant is unfortunately NOT the average concealed carrier.

Nevertheless, I suspect the average level of situational awareness is higher among CCW holders than the average population.

It's kind of like the Kerry comment on the military -- there aren't a lot of people with degrees in the enlisted ranks, but there are a lot more people with highschool diplomas in the military than the general population.