Looking for a new AR-15 , pretty new at this though . I know Colt's hold their value a lot better but is the difference between this Rifle ( Colt A2 Carbine ) and the Smith & Wesson M&P 15 M4 Carbine for $849.99 on next page a big difference ? Thanks for any help guys , from an Old Jar Head ... Semper Fi !
CDNN - Colt A2 Carbine $899.99 good deal ?
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atblis
Member
The Colt for $50 more is a no brainer.
philpost
Member
Isn't 1 in 7 mil-spec, and allows the use of heavier bullets?
Either one is a nice rifle.
The Colt is arguably better for the following reasons:
Colt uses a 1/7 twist barrel vs. 1/9 by S&W. Colt also uses an M16 style bolt carrier vs. a semi auto style carrier used in the S&W. Colt uses a higher grade of steel in the barrel, and Magnetic Particle Inspects(MPI) and pressure tests EACH barrel, compared to batch testing by S&W. Colt also uses a heavier buffer than the standard carbine buffer. And, as you stated, Colt holds its value better.
Three things that might make the S&W more appealing are the removable carry handle(much better option if you plan on using a scope or red dot sight), the M4 profile barrel, if you like that look, and the heavier profile of the barrel(vs. the lightweight profile of the Colt).
The Colt is arguably better for the following reasons:
Colt uses a 1/7 twist barrel vs. 1/9 by S&W. Colt also uses an M16 style bolt carrier vs. a semi auto style carrier used in the S&W. Colt uses a higher grade of steel in the barrel, and Magnetic Particle Inspects(MPI) and pressure tests EACH barrel, compared to batch testing by S&W. Colt also uses a heavier buffer than the standard carbine buffer. And, as you stated, Colt holds its value better.
Three things that might make the S&W more appealing are the removable carry handle(much better option if you plan on using a scope or red dot sight), the M4 profile barrel, if you like that look, and the heavier profile of the barrel(vs. the lightweight profile of the Colt).
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atblis
Member
1 in 9 is good for up to 69 gr (maybe 77 gr, but not guaranteed)
1 in 7 is good for pretty much anything you could possibly want to shoot. Should shoot 55 gr just fine.
For a carbine it doesn't really matter.
1 in 7 is good for pretty much anything you could possibly want to shoot. Should shoot 55 gr just fine.
For a carbine it doesn't really matter.
C-grunt
Member
I had one a couple years ago. It was a great little carbine. Ended up selling it to fund my Noveske purchase, but that wasnt because the Colt was bad. Just the Noveske was more of what I wanted.
That Colt MIGHT not have the detachable carry handle at that price, CDNN has had a number of ads featuring used Colts of late. Still, it's a great price on a Colt.
Geneseo1911
Member
For some perspective, I gave 1100 for my 6520 Colt A2 carbine on inauguration day 2009 (yes I was that guy), so I would call that a good deal. I would have probably bought a flat-top if it was available (the Colt was all I could get my hands on), and I knew what I know now.
A couple things to think about: If you want something other than iron sights, you have 3 choices: use a somewhat goofy dog-leg mount, mount the optic WAY up on top of the carry handle, or change the upper receiver. I decided I wanted a red dot on my carbine, so I changed the upper. Not at all hard to do...it took me about an hour....but it ruins any collectible value it had. I suppose I could always put the old upper back on, but I don't plan to ever sell it anyway.
Also, the barrel was slightly canted from the factory, which the new upper fixed as well. I should have sent it back, but I was having too much fun shooting it, even with the windage screwed all the way over. Just goes to show that even paying a premium for a Colt doesn't guarantee perfection.
If it is in fact a 6520, it also will have a pencil barrel. Mine is not terribly accurate.
The A2 sights on the shorter sight radius of the carbine make the adjustments a little goofy. The sights are designed for a 20" rifle, so instead of 1 click=1MOA, 1 click=.78MOA or some such; I'd have to look in the manual, which is the problem. The distance markings on the elevation knob for the rear sight will also not be correct. I'm not sure the detachable handles are calibrated for carbines either, though.
Anyway, I really like the gun, and the rampant colt and LE-only roll marks make me smile every time. It has been totally reliable and never had a stoppage, although I'm not as hard on it as a lot of guys here. If you want to mount an optic, don't be afraid of the S&W, they are supposed to be good guns. If you want irons, carbine length, and the provenance of a Colt, get the 6520. I personally would rather have a 20" if I was wanting an A2 style Colt (which I do).
A couple things to think about: If you want something other than iron sights, you have 3 choices: use a somewhat goofy dog-leg mount, mount the optic WAY up on top of the carry handle, or change the upper receiver. I decided I wanted a red dot on my carbine, so I changed the upper. Not at all hard to do...it took me about an hour....but it ruins any collectible value it had. I suppose I could always put the old upper back on, but I don't plan to ever sell it anyway.
Also, the barrel was slightly canted from the factory, which the new upper fixed as well. I should have sent it back, but I was having too much fun shooting it, even with the windage screwed all the way over. Just goes to show that even paying a premium for a Colt doesn't guarantee perfection.
If it is in fact a 6520, it also will have a pencil barrel. Mine is not terribly accurate.
The A2 sights on the shorter sight radius of the carbine make the adjustments a little goofy. The sights are designed for a 20" rifle, so instead of 1 click=1MOA, 1 click=.78MOA or some such; I'd have to look in the manual, which is the problem. The distance markings on the elevation knob for the rear sight will also not be correct. I'm not sure the detachable handles are calibrated for carbines either, though.
Anyway, I really like the gun, and the rampant colt and LE-only roll marks make me smile every time. It has been totally reliable and never had a stoppage, although I'm not as hard on it as a lot of guys here. If you want to mount an optic, don't be afraid of the S&W, they are supposed to be good guns. If you want irons, carbine length, and the provenance of a Colt, get the 6520. I personally would rather have a 20" if I was wanting an A2 style Colt (which I do).
451 Detonics
Member
Actually the 1 in 7 would do much better with the 62 grain than the 55 and would probably really like 68 to 75 grain bullets. And I would also say it doesn't matter whether it is a rifle length or carbine...twist rate still matters for the best accuracy.
ny32182
Member
What I've seen in general from the ARs I've owned is that both twists shoot 55gr acceptably, but the 1:9 does a little better. They are about the same at 68-69gr, which is about the 1:9's limit. With 77gr the 1:7 is far better. The 1:9 will not keyhole it, but will not shoot it with what I would call "acceptable" accuracy. Based on that I would probably not try to go lower than 55gr with a 1:7.
But evidently every barrel is different.
But evidently every barrel is different.
atblis
Member
Shooting an iron sighted pencil barreled carbine, I don't think the difference between a 1/7" and 1/9" matters. Both will shoot the 55s and 62s good enough.
jad0110
Member
I think it all comes down to whether or not you want to be able to mount different optics (flat top S&W would have the advantage) and whether or not you have a preference for a pencil vs HBAR (Colt vs S&W).
Personally, I prefer just shooting irons and I MUCH prefer ligher barrels, so for me the Colt would be a no brainer (great price too). Heck, if I had the money I'd probably jump on it. But YMMV.
Personally, I prefer just shooting irons and I MUCH prefer ligher barrels, so for me the Colt would be a no brainer (great price too). Heck, if I had the money I'd probably jump on it. But YMMV.
Just an FYI - CDNN is advertising that Colt as a very light carbine with a .223 barrel, which is odd, but I suspect means the barrel is NOT 5.56 NATO.
It may be that it is truly a lesser Colt. I didn't even know Colt made any such beast, but this may be an oddball.
It may be that it is truly a lesser Colt. I didn't even know Colt made any such beast, but this may be an oddball.
Omaha-BeenGlockin
Member
Doubtfull Colt would even waste the time making it .223 when EVERYTHING else they make is 5.56-----more likely just CDNN's ad spin.
And yes---thats a great deal--A2 or not.
Went by the local dealer a few weeks back to see one in person---still has it panic priced at $1699---its going to be sitting there a long long time.
Might be picking up one of those CDNN Colt's myself pretty soon.
And yes---thats a great deal--A2 or not.
Went by the local dealer a few weeks back to see one in person---still has it panic priced at $1699---its going to be sitting there a long long time.
Might be picking up one of those CDNN Colt's myself pretty soon.
Jackal
Member
Eh, save your money and buy a lower, complete upper and parts. Just build it. That was it suits your needs and you will save $250.
Lot's of great info guys , glad I joined here . The only sticking point to me ( with the $899 Colt ) may be the non removable carry handle . Most of the time when I see a fox or Coyote ( I raise Chickens ) by the time I get the rifle and get back outside it's a long shot , so a scope may be handy . I shot rifle expert every time I qualified with the M-16 while I was in the Marines , but that was 30 years ago , lol . What options would I have with optics if I had the carry handle ? Thanks again to everybody for your help !
guys, just remember that all the goodies on "the chart" only apply to colt's M4, not to every colt. colt has lots of models and they cut corners just like everyone else when no one is holding them to a spec.
anecdotally, i've had good luck with SP1s and A2 rifles, but not so good luck with the HBAR match stuff.
anecdotally, i've had good luck with SP1s and A2 rifles, but not so good luck with the HBAR match stuff.
dan3
Member
I agree with Jackal, get yourself a lower receiver and a complete upper kit. You can configure the upper any way, shape or form you like. Kits are available from many sources - easy and fun to put it all together.
I did that myself when I built mine...A2, 16" heavy barrel, M4 style handguard, 6 position retractable stock, Ergo grip. Great time doing it...Great results.
I did that myself when I built mine...A2, 16" heavy barrel, M4 style handguard, 6 position retractable stock, Ergo grip. Great time doing it...Great results.
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