jklinstein
Member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2006
- Messages
- 75
This is not a response to any prior messages:
Cetme Ground Bolt Heads and Safety Issues
- Thread starter Drakejake
- Start date
- Status
usmcdoc14
Member
sorry, one little bit I found amusing and just have to say that Colt, DSA, Armalite, and most of the other gun manuals I have read did not say anything about not grinding the bolt in their owners manuals either.
Doesn't mean I am going to take any of them to the bench grinder either as well.
Stop whining, go but a new bolt (they are cheap) and some rollers and respec your weapon the way that the factory wants so you can end this e-gunsmith argument.
Doesn't mean I am going to take any of them to the bench grinder either as well.
Stop whining, go but a new bolt (they are cheap) and some rollers and respec your weapon the way that the factory wants so you can end this e-gunsmith argument.
Drakejake
Member
The main problem with Century Cetmes occurs when you cannot get proper bolt gap with an unground bolt. Assume that you have installed an unground bolt, plus four rollers (oversized to compensate for wear in the trunnion recesses), and an unworn locking piece. You measure bolt gap and there isn't any. One of my Cetmes had this problem. What do you do now? I have stated that you reinstall the ground bolt and if you have good bolt gap, you are all set. Those on the other side are telling people that they must not fire their Cetme and G3 Sporters with a ground bolt, that this is unsafe, even though bolt gap is in spec and the rifles work fine. These "experts" insist that the rifle must be rebuilt by repressing the barrel. This is a major project, not for the inexperienced, which requires great skill to be accomplished correctly. So this is a debate about techincal issues but also about whether rifles are unsafe and must be trashed or reconstructed at a cost approaching that of the rifle itself. If I paid $300 or $400 or $500 for a Cetme and then am told to spend $300 more to rebuild it, wouldn't it be better for me to trash the rifle and buy another one, or forget the whole thing? This is the core issue about ground bolt heads as I see it. My position is that those who claim that ground bolts are unsafe and should not be used have not made their case.
Drakejake
Drakejake
glimmerman
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
- Messages
- 127
Drakejake is a moron!!!! He just cant get it through his thick scull that grinding a bolt head on ANYTHING!!! IS NOT SAFE. PERIOD!!!!! You wont be able to convince him otherwise. Maybe when the cetme with the ground bolt blows up in his face and he has to have the ground bolt surgically removed from his forehead he will get a clue but i doubt it. I have been a gunsmith for over 25 years and i am not even going to try and explain to him why this is not a safe practice. I have repaired well over 30 cetme and g3 clones from cai and alot of other milsurps from them as well. We dont call the employee's at cai monkeys because we think they are funny. Drakejake you just go on shooting your cetme with the ground bolt and when it blows up in your face dont say we didnt warn you!!!:banghead:
Drakejake
Member
Hello, I noticed that you called me names and derided me but didn't cite any proof, authority, or examples. Maybe you are a bad gunsmith with a bad attitude. At any rate, you don't seem to understand how to discuss questions rationally and with civility.
Drakejake
Drakejake
M110
Member
Please explain WHY its not a safe practice. Since you've been a gunsmith for 25 years, and repaired sooo many, it should be real easy for you to give us a good explanation on the "unsafe" practice of grinding the bolt head?
glimmerman
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
- Messages
- 127
It's very simple, First and formost by grinding the bolthead u are getting a FALSE!! bolt gap and headspace. The reason that cai ground the bolt heads was because the outside vender that pressed the barrels into the trunions did not have good quality control(usually found when u have the lowest bidder perform work for you). To "fix" this shoddy workman ship they thought they would save thier ass by grinding the bolt heads to "make them work". No where and i mean NO WHERE!!!! does it say in ANY!!! manual or armorers course that it is ok to grind down the bolt on a cetme or G3 to get the correct bolt gap. Drakejake, we have tried to tell you and have explained to you on numerous boards the reasons and FACTS!! pertaining to this and you just refuse to understand the logic. If u like shoddy workmanship and weapons that are considered dangerous to shoot, by all means you go right ahead and do so.
thoughts on CIA...
I bought one of their fn fal's through AIM.man what a pos.everything was wrong I ended up sending it off to a smith and having 100% gone over just to get it to shoot.
next my shooting bud buys a cetme and it shoots 2 ft left and has feeding issues.ect ect ect..and yes the "ground" bolt!!
come on guys if you buy anything from these monkeys your just wrong.
oop's I mean "wizards" instead on monkeys
they peddle crap/junk I am sure one day some one will end up dead/hurt because of the junk they sell.
just my .02 .
pete
I bought one of their fn fal's through AIM.man what a pos.everything was wrong I ended up sending it off to a smith and having 100% gone over just to get it to shoot.
next my shooting bud buys a cetme and it shoots 2 ft left and has feeding issues.ect ect ect..and yes the "ground" bolt!!
come on guys if you buy anything from these monkeys your just wrong.
oop's I mean "wizards" instead on monkeys
they peddle crap/junk I am sure one day some one will end up dead/hurt because of the junk they sell.
just my .02
.pete
Drakejake
Member
Hey, Glimmereman,
Your last post contains no proof, evidence, citations, or logical argument. You are asking us to take your statements on faith merely because you, someone I don't know, chooses to post a message. You are thereby concurring with my contention that the Cetme "experts" are making up their claims. My comments below are in capitals to distinguish them from quoted material:
"It's very simple, First and formost by grinding the bolthead u are getting a FALSE!! bolt gap and headspace."
I HAVE EXPLAINED WHY THIS IS UNTRUE. YOU SIMPLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW THE RIFLE WORKS AND WHY BOLT GAP IS IMPORTANT. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "FALSE" BOLT GAP, WITH THE ONE EXCEPTION I MENTIONED (BOLT CARRIER IS BEING PUSHED BACK BY COCKING PIECE). THE BURDEN IS ON YOU TO DEMONSTRATE WHY ONE MUST ABANDON OFFICIAL BOLT GAP SPECS IF THE BOLT HAS BEEN GROUND. BOLT GAP HAS LITTLE OR NOTHING TO DO WITH HEADSPACE IN CENTURY RIFLES AS TRUE EXPERTS ON THE ROLLER-DELAYED BLOWBACK ACTION HAVE POINTED OUT.
"The reason that cai ground the bolt heads was because the outside vender that pressed the barrels into the trunions did not have good quality control(usually found when u have the lowest bidder perform work for you)."
PLEASE TELL US WHO WAS THE OUTSIDE VENDOR WHO REPRESSED THE BARRELS FOR CENTURY. OTHERS HAVE STATED THAT THE OLD BARRELS AND TRUNNIONS WERE KEPT TOGETHER AND WELDED INTO THE NEW RECEIVER AS A UNIT. DO YOU HAVE INFORMATION TO THE CONTRARY? IF CENTURY IS NOW USING NEW BARRELS, THEN, YES, SOMEONE MUST BE REPRESSING THE BARRELS INTO THE TRUNNIONS.
"To "fix" this shoddy workman ship they thought they would save thier ass by grinding the bolt heads to "make them work". No where and i mean NO WHERE!!!! does it say in ANY!!! manual or armorers course that it is ok to grind down the bolt on a cetme or G3 to get the correct bolt gap."
I AGREE THAT MANUALS DO NOT DISCUSS GRINDING BOLT HEADS. HERE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT REASSEMBLED RIFLES, NOT THE ORIGINAL CETME AND HK RIFLES RELATED TO THOSE MANUALS. CENTURY BASICALLY COPIED THE OLD MANUALS, SO FAR AS I CAN TELL. BUT YOU STILL NEED TO PROVE THAT GRINDING BOLT HEADS CAUSES RIFLES TO BE UNSAFE. THUS FAR, NEITHER YOU NOR ANYONE ELSE HAS PROVIDED THIS PROOF ON THE INTERNET.
"Drakejake, we have tried to tell you and have explained to you on numerous boards the reasons and FACTS!! pertaining to this and you just refuse to understand the logic. If u like shoddy workmanship and weapons that are considered dangerous to shoot, by all means you go right ahead and do so."
WE ALREADY KNOW THAT CENTURY GROUND BOLT HEADS TO GET PROPER BOLT GAP. THUS FAR YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED ANY DOCUMENTATION OR LOGICAL ARGUMENTS TO SHOW WHY THIS IS A PROBLEM. I ASSUME THIS IS BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE ANY.
Drakejake
Your last post contains no proof, evidence, citations, or logical argument. You are asking us to take your statements on faith merely because you, someone I don't know, chooses to post a message. You are thereby concurring with my contention that the Cetme "experts" are making up their claims. My comments below are in capitals to distinguish them from quoted material:
"It's very simple, First and formost by grinding the bolthead u are getting a FALSE!! bolt gap and headspace."
I HAVE EXPLAINED WHY THIS IS UNTRUE. YOU SIMPLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW THE RIFLE WORKS AND WHY BOLT GAP IS IMPORTANT. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "FALSE" BOLT GAP, WITH THE ONE EXCEPTION I MENTIONED (BOLT CARRIER IS BEING PUSHED BACK BY COCKING PIECE). THE BURDEN IS ON YOU TO DEMONSTRATE WHY ONE MUST ABANDON OFFICIAL BOLT GAP SPECS IF THE BOLT HAS BEEN GROUND. BOLT GAP HAS LITTLE OR NOTHING TO DO WITH HEADSPACE IN CENTURY RIFLES AS TRUE EXPERTS ON THE ROLLER-DELAYED BLOWBACK ACTION HAVE POINTED OUT.
"The reason that cai ground the bolt heads was because the outside vender that pressed the barrels into the trunions did not have good quality control(usually found when u have the lowest bidder perform work for you)."
PLEASE TELL US WHO WAS THE OUTSIDE VENDOR WHO REPRESSED THE BARRELS FOR CENTURY. OTHERS HAVE STATED THAT THE OLD BARRELS AND TRUNNIONS WERE KEPT TOGETHER AND WELDED INTO THE NEW RECEIVER AS A UNIT. DO YOU HAVE INFORMATION TO THE CONTRARY? IF CENTURY IS NOW USING NEW BARRELS, THEN, YES, SOMEONE MUST BE REPRESSING THE BARRELS INTO THE TRUNNIONS.
"To "fix" this shoddy workman ship they thought they would save thier ass by grinding the bolt heads to "make them work". No where and i mean NO WHERE!!!! does it say in ANY!!! manual or armorers course that it is ok to grind down the bolt on a cetme or G3 to get the correct bolt gap."
I AGREE THAT MANUALS DO NOT DISCUSS GRINDING BOLT HEADS. HERE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT REASSEMBLED RIFLES, NOT THE ORIGINAL CETME AND HK RIFLES RELATED TO THOSE MANUALS. CENTURY BASICALLY COPIED THE OLD MANUALS, SO FAR AS I CAN TELL. BUT YOU STILL NEED TO PROVE THAT GRINDING BOLT HEADS CAUSES RIFLES TO BE UNSAFE. THUS FAR, NEITHER YOU NOR ANYONE ELSE HAS PROVIDED THIS PROOF ON THE INTERNET.
"Drakejake, we have tried to tell you and have explained to you on numerous boards the reasons and FACTS!! pertaining to this and you just refuse to understand the logic. If u like shoddy workmanship and weapons that are considered dangerous to shoot, by all means you go right ahead and do so."
WE ALREADY KNOW THAT CENTURY GROUND BOLT HEADS TO GET PROPER BOLT GAP. THUS FAR YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED ANY DOCUMENTATION OR LOGICAL ARGUMENTS TO SHOW WHY THIS IS A PROBLEM. I ASSUME THIS IS BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE ANY.
Drakejake
Drakejake
Member
AH-1,
I agree that many of the Century Cetmes, G3s, FALs, etc., are shoddily made. But I have three of these rifles and have gotten all of them to work satisfactorily. I spent about $300 on replacement parts for my two Cetmes (but will be reselling some of these parts). Don't tell the HK police, but I strongly prefer the FAL, which I consider a better design, more durable, and easier to maintain.
Drakejake
I agree that many of the Century Cetmes, G3s, FALs, etc., are shoddily made. But I have three of these rifles and have gotten all of them to work satisfactorily. I spent about $300 on replacement parts for my two Cetmes (but will be reselling some of these parts). Don't tell the HK police, but I strongly prefer the FAL, which I consider a better design, more durable, and easier to maintain.
Drakejake
Drakejake
Member
I Am Not the Only One
Some people have suggested that I am the only person in the world who believes that if you have a Century Cetme/G3 that has a good bolt gap, a ground bolt, and works fine, just shoot it and don't worry. But this is not true. I just ran acress this little thread. I am sure I can find others.
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=158495&goto=nextoldest
Also see the detailed description of the effects of wear on the roller-delayed system. I don't know if it is correct in every respect, but it may be helpful:
http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51448&highlight=headspace
Some people have suggested that I am the only person in the world who believes that if you have a Century Cetme/G3 that has a good bolt gap, a ground bolt, and works fine, just shoot it and don't worry. But this is not true. I just ran acress this little thread. I am sure I can find others.
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=158495&goto=nextoldest
Also see the detailed description of the effects of wear on the roller-delayed system. I don't know if it is correct in every respect, but it may be helpful:
http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51448&highlight=headspace
usmcdoc14
Member
Ok I will put this in simple easy to understand words:
It is ghetto gunsmithing.
End of story.
Stop trying to justify your halfassed gunsmithing abilities and knowledge base. Yes, I know how and why a roller delayed blowback weapon works.Yes I know the motions and the roller adjustment.
This info is a moot point, why?
Because it has nothing to do with half assed gunsmithing.
It does not matter if you get "working" end results, it is the incorrect way to adjust it. Maybe if you spent half the amount in effort to learn how to re-press a barrel you would not be trying to justify the lazy way of using a bench grinder.
I can adjust the headspacing of a FAL with a dremel tool but that does not make it right, EVEN if it still works correctly.
I build and fix firearms "by the book" how they are "supposed" to be fixed/made/repared. Even my home grown weapons are done by the guidelines of people who had way more info on the funcions of a weapon then you or I.
You keep ghetto building your guns, have fun.
Because even if you are right, you are still wrong.
It is ghetto gunsmithing.
End of story.
Stop trying to justify your halfassed gunsmithing abilities and knowledge base. Yes, I know how and why a roller delayed blowback weapon works.Yes I know the motions and the roller adjustment.
This info is a moot point, why?
Because it has nothing to do with half assed gunsmithing.
It does not matter if you get "working" end results, it is the incorrect way to adjust it. Maybe if you spent half the amount in effort to learn how to re-press a barrel you would not be trying to justify the lazy way of using a bench grinder.
I can adjust the headspacing of a FAL with a dremel tool but that does not make it right, EVEN if it still works correctly.
I build and fix firearms "by the book" how they are "supposed" to be fixed/made/repared. Even my home grown weapons are done by the guidelines of people who had way more info on the funcions of a weapon then you or I.
You keep ghetto building your guns, have fun.
Because even if you are right, you are still wrong.
Drakejake
Member
usmcdoc,
I think you have missed something. I have never built a rifle. I merely replaced some parts and did some minor adjustments in my Cetmes. The shimming of the trigger pack seems to be very common. Century made the Cetmes I have. Why don't you direct your comments to them? I never endorsed Century's grinding of bolt heads. I merely asked for proof that using a ground bolt was unsafe. Thus far no one has submitted any proof supporting this notion.
Drakejake
I think you have missed something. I have never built a rifle. I merely replaced some parts and did some minor adjustments in my Cetmes. The shimming of the trigger pack seems to be very common. Century made the Cetmes I have. Why don't you direct your comments to them? I never endorsed Century's grinding of bolt heads. I merely asked for proof that using a ground bolt was unsafe. Thus far no one has submitted any proof supporting this notion.
Drakejake
usmcdoc14
Member
this is a retarded question. Why would your even consider using a ground bolt? Why would you even think about using a key part of a weapon that has been modified in an inncorect way? Why would you even be debating this?
Your entire premis is to get some sort of e-rage going and get a rise out of people.
And YES you have endorsed using a ground bolt because you KEEP ON PESTERING FOR PROOF !!! You don't seem to get it do you?
Grinding a part of a gun that is not supposed be be ground no matter how many people say it is "OK" is still not "ok"
ok?
If Century did it or not is besides the point, YOU need to fix it correctly not just find some escuse to keep running it the way you got it. and thats all you are doing.
Instead of just saying to yourself "Hey its retarded to grind a bolt and I have no clue why the assemblers at Century did this but I AM GOING TO FIX IT RIGHT" you go and say "Let me JUSTIFY the stupid move on Century's part so I can fix it the way I want"
Dude, do whatever the hell you want, you are a rock and I am done trying to get this bad info out of your head. Go argue someplace else.
From my past two years of studying and reading up everything I can find about the CETME/G3 system, it is actually a very simple answer. After building my own G3, I can see how the system works even better.
Headspace is set by the distance from the front of the chamber to the recess in the bolt face. That has nothing to do with bolt gap, and nowhere does Perro or anyone else say it does. Measuring headspace in these things is a tedious process, since the bolt can "adjust" itself to case length.
Unlock timing of the blowback system has to do with how and where the rollers are in the trunnion recess. Since this is the main lock for the bolt, it is critical that the bolt unlocks correctly, both for operation and safety. Timing in the CETME is slightly different from the G3/HK91.
Unlock too early, and you can have case seperations, or physical damage to the gun. To late, and you have excessive recoil, and extraction failures.
The only simple indicator of bolt position, as recommended by HK, is bolt gap. So, if you grind the back of the bolt to provide a false indicator of wear, what do you have? A gun that maybe works, or maybe doesn't. It is also a gun that is in a condition that CETME and HK would never recommend.
Think of it like the bolt lugs on a AK or M14; if the bolt wouldn't close and lock, would you feel ok grinding the lugs to get it to?
Century also produced quite a few guns, that had the front of the bolt contacting the triple frame, and also giving false head space. It would eventually crack the welds, but I would assume by the reasoning in this thread, that would be ok?
It all boils down to what you are happy to have sitting next to your face when it goes boom.
Somewhere I came across the minimum OAL of the bolt; if it was OK to grind, why would that be listed? I'll have to dig around and find it again.
I am not a certified gunsmith. I am not telling anyone what to do with their guns. But I do know that I prefer to get mine correct, rather than take a grinder to a surface hardened, critical part in a firearm.
Headspace is set by the distance from the front of the chamber to the recess in the bolt face. That has nothing to do with bolt gap, and nowhere does Perro or anyone else say it does. Measuring headspace in these things is a tedious process, since the bolt can "adjust" itself to case length.
Unlock timing of the blowback system has to do with how and where the rollers are in the trunnion recess. Since this is the main lock for the bolt, it is critical that the bolt unlocks correctly, both for operation and safety. Timing in the CETME is slightly different from the G3/HK91.
Unlock too early, and you can have case seperations, or physical damage to the gun. To late, and you have excessive recoil, and extraction failures.
The only simple indicator of bolt position, as recommended by HK, is bolt gap. So, if you grind the back of the bolt to provide a false indicator of wear, what do you have? A gun that maybe works, or maybe doesn't. It is also a gun that is in a condition that CETME and HK would never recommend.
Think of it like the bolt lugs on a AK or M14; if the bolt wouldn't close and lock, would you feel ok grinding the lugs to get it to?
Century also produced quite a few guns, that had the front of the bolt contacting the triple frame, and also giving false head space. It would eventually crack the welds, but I would assume by the reasoning in this thread, that would be ok?
It all boils down to what you are happy to have sitting next to your face when it goes boom.
Somewhere I came across the minimum OAL of the bolt; if it was OK to grind, why would that be listed? I'll have to dig around and find it again.
I am not a certified gunsmith. I am not telling anyone what to do with their guns. But I do know that I prefer to get mine correct, rather than take a grinder to a surface hardened, critical part in a firearm.
well...
since he dropped my name, I registered for this one post because I feel its somewhat my duty so to speak to keep those who don't understand the way these rifles work fully will have the best knowledge base for making their own decisions. I cant force anyone to do the right thing, but i can provide the truth about how they work and let them decide for themselves. all i want from drakejake is that since he has taken a VERY minority stance here which is obvious to most is unsafe and just a stupid practice to just shut the hell up and do what he wants to do. there is absolutely no need to troll around on every single board he can find to start **** with everyone and get everyone riled up. here's my reply to him on gunboards.com in the cetme forum:
"Since this is a sticky, I feel I need to reply to it so that newbies dont read it and think that what Drakejake did was acceptable by any means. Heres why its unsafe... in addition to masking wear.
Bolt Gap is a measurement which indicates where the rollers are along the locking piece. a high Bolt gap means that the rifle will unlock very fast, as the rifle is just barely into battery, and the gap is left wide open. a low bolt gap means the rifle is well into battery, will take more time to unlock, chamber pressures will be slightly higher, recoil will be less as more pressure is used to unlock the bolt. a bolt gap out of spec on the high end doesnt allow the bolt to sufficiently lock into battery, which eans HIGH recoil, and very fast wearing of parts. Out of spec BG on the low end means that the timing is too slow, and pressures get too high in the chamber, which is why case head separations are common with low BG's... the high pressure is unsafe obviously, and an explosion COULD happen over time as the chamber wears... you get the point.
The REASON grinding a bolt is BAD: It masks the fact that parts are out of spec/worn. By grinding the bolt head, it allows the gap to be bigger, but doesnt not change anything about the timing of the rifles system. All it does is allow a feeler guage to go between the carrier and bolt, the rollers are still in the same place along the LP because the material was taken off the back end of the bolt.
The reason it doesnt change anything about the timing is THIS: The Cetme bolt design does NOT head space like a normal rifle. in fact it doesnt really headspace at all. the bolt face is tight up against the chamber EVERY time, so the headspace is the same EVERY time. technically there is no Headspace on a Cetme or HK. Its just a chamber with a bolt face up against it. changing you bolt gap doesnt change headspace because there is no headspace. changing your Bolt gap changes where the rollers are along the locking piece. Since the bolt is in the same position Every Single time it slams home, the rollers are in the same place as well since they are always the same distance off the bolt face. Adding larger rollers changes bolt gap because they are larger therefor they dont have to press out as far to reach the walls on the trunnion, which makes the locking piece not be able to wedge as far between them so the gap is larger. adding a new locking piece gets rid of worn spots in the old locking piece which does not allow it to wedge as deep into the bolt head, thus increasing boltgap. replacing a worn bolt head reduces slop created by the rollers pressing hard against the walls of the slots which they come out of, which can allow the LP to slide further between them, which reduces bolt gap, so replacing with a new one increases gap.
The main thing to see is THIS: bolt gap is not important because its a gap... its not a cushion of gap which most people think at first sight... bolt gap is a measurement that tells you what stage the bolt group is in. By grinding the back of the bolt, a false measurement is given. It makes it seem as though a rifle is in spec when actually grinding the back of the bolt does nothing to change anything about the rifle except how big of a gap is between the bolt and carrier.
Hopefully this will help out others who come to the form, and read the stickies.
Drakejake was convinced that his rifle was safe, and thats his choice, because its his rifle and his face if it ever does finally wear out enough to explode. But there is a reason that manuals, Cetme armories, and HK experts/gunsmiths/armories all give the same information on how to alter bolt gap. And doesnt it seem a little odd that Century Arms is the only ones who say its ok to grind a bolt...............
If you have a ground bolt, you are not required to get a new one. You can measure it, and compare it to the nominal bolt head length of 1.835". If your bolt measures 1.827", you need to subtract .008" from your bolt gap reading to get an "actual" bolt gap. so if your bolt measures 1.827", your new "spec" for bolt gap is .012" to .028".
If anyone has any questions about how to fix or attack a problem or has any questions on how to check anything on these rifles, PLEASE start a thread and ask your question. And dont be discouraged and think that its going to be "multiple hundreds" of dollars to fix. Most problems are easily fixed on these rifles at a very low cost. Good luck and Happy Shooting to you all."
and here's the link o where he got BANNED from Perro's site (www.cetmerifles.com for those wanting some indepth information from a specialized website): http://www.cetmerifles.com/forum/vb/showthread.php?t=16292
basic answer is this... Drakejake wants everyone else to "cite" him proof from qualified experts. unfortunately, there arent many HK gunsmiths who frequent forums... Hk gunsmiths tend to have better things to do with their lives. But Bill Springfield, a qualified HK gunsmith has responded to his claims if i remember correctly, and put them down. But thats not really the point. The reason theres not any "proof" is that its such a dumb thing to do. The only bit of proof that Century did something that is OK is from Century itself, and they refuse to show anyone where they got this proof... dead giveaway. Also, here's some more "proof": IF you call Century and bitch a littl bit, they will in fact replace your parts on your out of spec/unsafe rifle, and if that doesnt fix it, they will either repress your barel or replace your rifle. it takes a little bit of work, but Century will admit that they did a bad thing when they ground the bolts... if it was truly "safe", why would they fix rifles that arent broke?
Think about how the system works... and look closely at the link provided and the links inside that discussion to see some in depth analysis of how the system works and why this practice is unsafe and not the right way to do things.
My beef with drakejake is still this: the guy is a pompous ass! he states that since "we" are making claims that we owe proof. but the problem is HK and Cetme manuals give the correct way to adjust bolt gap, and state that when the parts wear too much the barrel must be repressed... so Century, and drakejake, for tat matter are the ones "deviating" from the ways the original engineers and gunsmiths said to fix the rifle, so technically THEY should provide this proof. I'd love to see the original gunsmiths and engineers say its ok to fix the rifles this way.
yes technically all our statements are based on "opinion", but its an opinion that is based in reality and common sense. As one said earlier, it doesnt say in any car manual that its not ok to put sawdust in a gas tank... so does that mean its ok??? NO!
Drakejake, shut the hell up and do what you want to do. this is an assinine discussion which will never go anywhere. no one said they wouldnt let you shoot your own rifle as you please...
I'm done with this discussion... and no offense to any high road guys, but I'll go back to my "holes" as i normally dont frequent this website... I already waste enough time on the other forums Im a part of. Hope my comments helped some of you guys make a truly educated decision about your own rifles.
simple answer to the problem before it arises... be knowledgeable about the subject before you buy, and bring the proper tools to measure the stuff on the rifle to make sure its in spec before you buy.
and I'm out,
Jordan
since he dropped my name, I registered for this one post because I feel its somewhat my duty so to speak to keep those who don't understand the way these rifles work fully will have the best knowledge base for making their own decisions. I cant force anyone to do the right thing, but i can provide the truth about how they work and let them decide for themselves. all i want from drakejake is that since he has taken a VERY minority stance here which is obvious to most is unsafe and just a stupid practice to just shut the hell up and do what he wants to do. there is absolutely no need to troll around on every single board he can find to start **** with everyone and get everyone riled up. here's my reply to him on gunboards.com in the cetme forum:
"Since this is a sticky, I feel I need to reply to it so that newbies dont read it and think that what Drakejake did was acceptable by any means. Heres why its unsafe... in addition to masking wear.
Bolt Gap is a measurement which indicates where the rollers are along the locking piece. a high Bolt gap means that the rifle will unlock very fast, as the rifle is just barely into battery, and the gap is left wide open. a low bolt gap means the rifle is well into battery, will take more time to unlock, chamber pressures will be slightly higher, recoil will be less as more pressure is used to unlock the bolt. a bolt gap out of spec on the high end doesnt allow the bolt to sufficiently lock into battery, which eans HIGH recoil, and very fast wearing of parts. Out of spec BG on the low end means that the timing is too slow, and pressures get too high in the chamber, which is why case head separations are common with low BG's... the high pressure is unsafe obviously, and an explosion COULD happen over time as the chamber wears... you get the point.
The REASON grinding a bolt is BAD: It masks the fact that parts are out of spec/worn. By grinding the bolt head, it allows the gap to be bigger, but doesnt not change anything about the timing of the rifles system. All it does is allow a feeler guage to go between the carrier and bolt, the rollers are still in the same place along the LP because the material was taken off the back end of the bolt.
The reason it doesnt change anything about the timing is THIS: The Cetme bolt design does NOT head space like a normal rifle. in fact it doesnt really headspace at all. the bolt face is tight up against the chamber EVERY time, so the headspace is the same EVERY time. technically there is no Headspace on a Cetme or HK. Its just a chamber with a bolt face up against it. changing you bolt gap doesnt change headspace because there is no headspace. changing your Bolt gap changes where the rollers are along the locking piece. Since the bolt is in the same position Every Single time it slams home, the rollers are in the same place as well since they are always the same distance off the bolt face. Adding larger rollers changes bolt gap because they are larger therefor they dont have to press out as far to reach the walls on the trunnion, which makes the locking piece not be able to wedge as far between them so the gap is larger. adding a new locking piece gets rid of worn spots in the old locking piece which does not allow it to wedge as deep into the bolt head, thus increasing boltgap. replacing a worn bolt head reduces slop created by the rollers pressing hard against the walls of the slots which they come out of, which can allow the LP to slide further between them, which reduces bolt gap, so replacing with a new one increases gap.
The main thing to see is THIS: bolt gap is not important because its a gap... its not a cushion of gap which most people think at first sight... bolt gap is a measurement that tells you what stage the bolt group is in. By grinding the back of the bolt, a false measurement is given. It makes it seem as though a rifle is in spec when actually grinding the back of the bolt does nothing to change anything about the rifle except how big of a gap is between the bolt and carrier.
Hopefully this will help out others who come to the form, and read the stickies.
Drakejake was convinced that his rifle was safe, and thats his choice, because its his rifle and his face if it ever does finally wear out enough to explode. But there is a reason that manuals, Cetme armories, and HK experts/gunsmiths/armories all give the same information on how to alter bolt gap. And doesnt it seem a little odd that Century Arms is the only ones who say its ok to grind a bolt...............
If you have a ground bolt, you are not required to get a new one. You can measure it, and compare it to the nominal bolt head length of 1.835". If your bolt measures 1.827", you need to subtract .008" from your bolt gap reading to get an "actual" bolt gap. so if your bolt measures 1.827", your new "spec" for bolt gap is .012" to .028".
If anyone has any questions about how to fix or attack a problem or has any questions on how to check anything on these rifles, PLEASE start a thread and ask your question. And dont be discouraged and think that its going to be "multiple hundreds" of dollars to fix. Most problems are easily fixed on these rifles at a very low cost. Good luck and Happy Shooting to you all."
and here's the link o where he got BANNED from Perro's site (www.cetmerifles.com for those wanting some indepth information from a specialized website): http://www.cetmerifles.com/forum/vb/showthread.php?t=16292
basic answer is this... Drakejake wants everyone else to "cite" him proof from qualified experts. unfortunately, there arent many HK gunsmiths who frequent forums... Hk gunsmiths tend to have better things to do with their lives. But Bill Springfield, a qualified HK gunsmith has responded to his claims if i remember correctly, and put them down. But thats not really the point. The reason theres not any "proof" is that its such a dumb thing to do. The only bit of proof that Century did something that is OK is from Century itself, and they refuse to show anyone where they got this proof... dead giveaway. Also, here's some more "proof": IF you call Century and bitch a littl bit, they will in fact replace your parts on your out of spec/unsafe rifle, and if that doesnt fix it, they will either repress your barel or replace your rifle. it takes a little bit of work, but Century will admit that they did a bad thing when they ground the bolts... if it was truly "safe", why would they fix rifles that arent broke?
Think about how the system works... and look closely at the link provided and the links inside that discussion to see some in depth analysis of how the system works and why this practice is unsafe and not the right way to do things.
My beef with drakejake is still this: the guy is a pompous ass! he states that since "we" are making claims that we owe proof. but the problem is HK and Cetme manuals give the correct way to adjust bolt gap, and state that when the parts wear too much the barrel must be repressed... so Century, and drakejake, for tat matter are the ones "deviating" from the ways the original engineers and gunsmiths said to fix the rifle, so technically THEY should provide this proof. I'd love to see the original gunsmiths and engineers say its ok to fix the rifles this way.
yes technically all our statements are based on "opinion", but its an opinion that is based in reality and common sense. As one said earlier, it doesnt say in any car manual that its not ok to put sawdust in a gas tank... so does that mean its ok??? NO!
Drakejake, shut the hell up and do what you want to do. this is an assinine discussion which will never go anywhere. no one said they wouldnt let you shoot your own rifle as you please...
I'm done with this discussion... and no offense to any high road guys, but I'll go back to my "holes" as i normally dont frequent this website... I already waste enough time on the other forums Im a part of. Hope my comments helped some of you guys make a truly educated decision about your own rifles.
simple answer to the problem before it arises... be knowledgeable about the subject before you buy, and bring the proper tools to measure the stuff on the rifle to make sure its in spec before you buy.
and I'm out,
Jordan
Drakejake
Member
JFowl is a good example of the people who are constantly repeating unfounded statements about the Cetme. I believe he is 23 years old and is not employed in making or repairing firearms. Has he ever been factory trained on any firearm? What are his qualifications to pontificate on firearms? What makes him an expert on the Cetme? But he is content to repeat the same gibberish over and over. And he feels compelled to insult someone who merely asks for proof of what he says. JFowl insults because he has no proof and has been caught making statements he cannot back up. So I will ignore his preachings and stick with factory manuals and those whose posts on the Net demonstrate REAL knowledge of the subject matter being discussed.
Drakejake
Drakejake
itgoesboom
member
Drake,
You have done nothing but insult those who disagree with you, and you still haven't told us what your qualifications are.
So, how about you start there.
Are you a gunsmith, engineer, or have you worked for HK?
Respectfully.
I.G.B.
You have done nothing but insult those who disagree with you, and you still haven't told us what your qualifications are.
So, how about you start there.
Are you a gunsmith, engineer, or have you worked for HK?
Respectfully.
I.G.B.
"JFowl is a good example of the people who are constantly repeating unfounded statements about the Cetme. I believe he is 23 years old and is not employed in making or repairing firearms. Has he ever been factory trained on any firearm? What are his qualifications to pontificate on firearms? What makes him an expert on the Cetme? But he is content to repeat the same gibberish over and over. And he feels compelled to insult someone who merely asks for proof of what he says. JFowl insults because he has no proof and has been caught making statements he cannot back up. So I will ignore his preachings and stick with factory manuals and those whose posts on the Net demonstrate REAL knowledge of the subject matter being discussed."
That's all I oranyone else talking about this discussion is asking you to do actually... do what it says in the manuals... it says to adjust bolt gap by adding larger rollers or replacing bolt head/ locking pieces... and if that cant fix the gap, then repress the barrel. PLEASE cite where in your manual it says to grind the bolt to raise the bolt gap. I'd love to see that.
Again my only beef is this... if you are going to to something to a firearm that isnt in any armorer's manual or any other published piece pertaining to the firearm, its your choice. But if youre going to do it, keep it to yourself and quit whining about it trying to win people over to your side. If you wouldnt keep posting it everywhere and trolling around to different websites about it, the subject would go away, and everyone would make their own decision about the issue. But you feel the need to go around telling everyone about how idiotic everyone who disagreed with you were, instead of just letting it go. Its obvious you arent going to change your thinking. So grow up and do what you want and quit whining about it!
And since you attacked me saying that I don't do HK gunsmithing for a living and am 23 years old therefor i must know nothing about the subject... nevermind, this is idiotic... and as the old saying goes... "arguing on the internet is like the special olympics... whether you win or lose, youre still retarded!"
That's all I oranyone else talking about this discussion is asking you to do actually... do what it says in the manuals... it says to adjust bolt gap by adding larger rollers or replacing bolt head/ locking pieces... and if that cant fix the gap, then repress the barrel. PLEASE cite where in your manual it says to grind the bolt to raise the bolt gap. I'd love to see that.
Again my only beef is this... if you are going to to something to a firearm that isnt in any armorer's manual or any other published piece pertaining to the firearm, its your choice. But if youre going to do it, keep it to yourself and quit whining about it trying to win people over to your side. If you wouldnt keep posting it everywhere and trolling around to different websites about it, the subject would go away, and everyone would make their own decision about the issue. But you feel the need to go around telling everyone about how idiotic everyone who disagreed with you were, instead of just letting it go. Its obvious you arent going to change your thinking. So grow up and do what you want and quit whining about it!
And since you attacked me saying that I don't do HK gunsmithing for a living and am 23 years old therefor i must know nothing about the subject... nevermind, this is idiotic... and as the old saying goes... "arguing on the internet is like the special olympics... whether you win or lose, youre still retarded!"
"Some people have suggested that I am the only person in the world who believes that if you have a Century Cetme/G3 that has a good bolt gap, a ground bolt, and works fine, just shoot it and don't worry. But this is not true. I just ran acress this little thread. I am sure I can find others.
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...oto=nextoldest
Also see the detailed description of the effects of wear on the roller-delayed system. I don't know if it is correct in every respect, but it may be helpful:
http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.ph...ight=headspace "
WOW, I clicked on those expecting to see some good info from experts saying grinding bolts was acceptable... what I found was 2 guys say it was ok... one said the old "if it ain't broke..." and the other stated that he built his rifle "correctly" without any ground bolt, but that the ground bolt "wouldn't hurt anything... GREAT info there from OBVIOUS HK EXPERTS.
And to quote the other link from HKpro which Drakejake states gives good info on the locking system...
AHEM...
"THE ONLY SAFE AND CORRECT WAY TO ACCOUNT FOR WEAR IS REPLACEMENT OF ROLLERS OR WORN LOCKING PARTS."
way to shoot yerself in the foot there compadre. Youre correct though, youre apparently not completely alone. it seems as though idiots travel in 3's... no thats too mean, because I dont know where the other 2 gentleman stand on the issue to this date... they may have gotten BETTER information since that posting a year ago.
but good links, it is a good read on how the roller system works. it also shows that adjusting the bolt gap is SUPPOSED to DO SOMETHING to the rifle in question. Its supposed to change the setup of the bolt in some way. grinding the back of the bolt does nothing to change anything about the timing of the rifle.
IF grinding the bolt was ok, and the rifle was completely safe with the gap getting that low, and having the bolt ground... IF all the gap was for was a sort of buffer as you imply, and its not a measurement of anything else about the rifle (aka rollers along LP), then WHY is the spec for a HK/Cetme cut off at .004"???????????? Why do they say its unsafe to shoot said rifle with a gap of .003"????????????? I mean theres still "GAP" right... so techinically according to you, since the bolt is not bottoming out on the carrier, its still safe... but the original designers say its not!!!............ hmmmmmmmmm curious. It aint a magical buffer! its not important because its a gap... its an indication of wear on locking parts as is stated in the link YOU provided. PARTS wear out... guns wear out... yours is apparently a worn out TURD that needs to be fixed correctly. You dont fix a worn part by wearing it even further by grinding it... you replace it. and if replacing it doesnt fix the problem, then the problem lies in the fact that the barrel is not far enough into the trunnion, and therefor needs to be repressed.
There's a reason HK and Cetme never made "+6's and +8's" and its because when the rifle gets so worn out that it needs these, it needs to be rebuilt!
but it looks as though youve officially made yourself look like an idiot on yet another board, so once again, I'll go back to where I came from.
And once again to those reading this thread... I'm normally a nice guy I promise I was informed that Drake was over here talking **** and my name was mentioned, so i felt the need to defend myself... Im sorry you had to read my rants. And btw, when did I become "famous?" back there somewhere I was called "the famous jfowl". oh well...
Jordan
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...oto=nextoldest
Also see the detailed description of the effects of wear on the roller-delayed system. I don't know if it is correct in every respect, but it may be helpful:
http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.ph...ight=headspace "
WOW, I clicked on those expecting to see some good info from experts saying grinding bolts was acceptable... what I found was 2 guys say it was ok... one said the old "if it ain't broke..." and the other stated that he built his rifle "correctly" without any ground bolt, but that the ground bolt "wouldn't hurt anything... GREAT info there from OBVIOUS HK EXPERTS.
And to quote the other link from HKpro which Drakejake states gives good info on the locking system...
AHEM...
"THE ONLY SAFE AND CORRECT WAY TO ACCOUNT FOR WEAR IS REPLACEMENT OF ROLLERS OR WORN LOCKING PARTS."
way to shoot yerself in the foot there compadre. Youre correct though, youre apparently not completely alone. it seems as though idiots travel in 3's... no thats too mean, because I dont know where the other 2 gentleman stand on the issue to this date... they may have gotten BETTER information since that posting a year ago.
but good links, it is a good read on how the roller system works. it also shows that adjusting the bolt gap is SUPPOSED to DO SOMETHING to the rifle in question. Its supposed to change the setup of the bolt in some way. grinding the back of the bolt does nothing to change anything about the timing of the rifle.
IF grinding the bolt was ok, and the rifle was completely safe with the gap getting that low, and having the bolt ground... IF all the gap was for was a sort of buffer as you imply, and its not a measurement of anything else about the rifle (aka rollers along LP), then WHY is the spec for a HK/Cetme cut off at .004"???????????? Why do they say its unsafe to shoot said rifle with a gap of .003"????????????? I mean theres still "GAP" right... so techinically according to you, since the bolt is not bottoming out on the carrier, its still safe... but the original designers say its not!!!............ hmmmmmmmmm curious. It aint a magical buffer! its not important because its a gap... its an indication of wear on locking parts as is stated in the link YOU provided. PARTS wear out... guns wear out... yours is apparently a worn out TURD that needs to be fixed correctly. You dont fix a worn part by wearing it even further by grinding it... you replace it. and if replacing it doesnt fix the problem, then the problem lies in the fact that the barrel is not far enough into the trunnion, and therefor needs to be repressed.
There's a reason HK and Cetme never made "+6's and +8's" and its because when the rifle gets so worn out that it needs these, it needs to be rebuilt!
but it looks as though youve officially made yourself look like an idiot on yet another board, so once again, I'll go back to where I came from.
And once again to those reading this thread... I'm normally a nice guy I promise
I was informed that Drake was over here talking **** and my name was mentioned, so i felt the need to defend myself... Im sorry you had to read my rants. And btw, when did I become "famous?" back there somewhere I was called "the famous jfowl". oh well...Jordan
Drakejake
Member
My position is very simple:
The Cetme/G3 manuals say that bolt gap should be .004 to .020. Jordan and the other Dead End Kids say this doesn't apply to rifles which have ground bolt heads. But they do not give us any reason to believe them rather than the manuals.
I have already stated that I am a researcher not a gun expert, although I own, shoot, and have worked on a number of firearms over a number of years. Since I am relying on the official manuals issued by the rifle manufacturers, the burden of proof is not on me. It is up to those who are lecturing us on the Cetme and similar rifles to explain why we cannot rely on the manuals and on the presumed safety of firearms which have been bought and used by many thousands without a single documented blow-up caused by ground bolt heads. Nor has any of these "experts" provided a rational explanation of why a ground bolt head MIGHT cause a blow-up.
Generally, one must be careful in following the advice one finds on the Net, especially if it consists of saying that your rifle is unsafe and must be rebuilt at a cost of several hundred dollars. I think one would be imprudent to rely on unknown people of unknown backgrounds and qualifications in this situation. There are a few Cetme/G3 experts out there and I have posted references to some of their messages. One of these experts--"huntingguide"--showed that Mike Perro didn't know what he is talking about. JFowl is merely repeating what he has read on the Net about Cetmes. I don't believe he has any understanding of the roller-delayed blowback action or any qualifications to advise people on their rifles. The fact that at age 23 he has managed to buy a couple of firearms does not, in itself, make him an authority.
Drakejake
The Cetme/G3 manuals say that bolt gap should be .004 to .020. Jordan and the other Dead End Kids say this doesn't apply to rifles which have ground bolt heads. But they do not give us any reason to believe them rather than the manuals.
I have already stated that I am a researcher not a gun expert, although I own, shoot, and have worked on a number of firearms over a number of years. Since I am relying on the official manuals issued by the rifle manufacturers, the burden of proof is not on me. It is up to those who are lecturing us on the Cetme and similar rifles to explain why we cannot rely on the manuals and on the presumed safety of firearms which have been bought and used by many thousands without a single documented blow-up caused by ground bolt heads. Nor has any of these "experts" provided a rational explanation of why a ground bolt head MIGHT cause a blow-up.
Generally, one must be careful in following the advice one finds on the Net, especially if it consists of saying that your rifle is unsafe and must be rebuilt at a cost of several hundred dollars. I think one would be imprudent to rely on unknown people of unknown backgrounds and qualifications in this situation. There are a few Cetme/G3 experts out there and I have posted references to some of their messages. One of these experts--"huntingguide"--showed that Mike Perro didn't know what he is talking about. JFowl is merely repeating what he has read on the Net about Cetmes. I don't believe he has any understanding of the roller-delayed blowback action or any qualifications to advise people on their rifles. The fact that at age 23 he has managed to buy a couple of firearms does not, in itself, make him an authority.
Drakejake
ocharry
Member
ok i have been reading this stuff and i haven't seen any mention of what size and tolerance the factory has for the real length of the bolt head.... i have seen a nominal length of 1.835... i would like to know if there is a min and max dimension on the length measurement? i'm sure that HK has some kind of bolt head length and tolerance +/-,,,,, the reason i ask this is because i just happen to have a brand new one and it measures 1.845...... i would also think that if you are going to change the timing of this system by grinding material from the rear of the bolt head that the same amount of material should be taken from the front of the carrier so it doesn't come to rest on the trunnion face,,,if that happened it would cause an out of battery condition at time of ignition because the rollers would not be fully engaged in the trunnion...... on the new bolt ass. that i have ,,,, when i took it apart it looks like the factory adjusted the bolt gap by removing metal from the angles of the firing pin carrier that engage the rollers.......if the dimensions have a wide range,,, on all the parts you could be outside the tolerance stacking that is designed into the system by grinding the rear of the bolt head..... sorry it's the toll maker in me coming out,,, i can't help it ,,,, i'm no HK expert,,,, i just thought i would ask
ocharry
,,,, i'm no HK expert,,,, i just thought i would ask ocharry
rbernie
Contributing Member
This is a door that swings both ways.
So far, I've not seen anything in this thread that explains to me WHY bolt length is an irrelevant fitment measurement in determining the proper (safe) mechanical relationship between bolt, carrier, locking piece, rollers, trunnion recesses, barrel/chamber, and so forth. I'm sorry to say this, Drakejake, but attacking the credibility of the other folks does NOT inherently support your position or imply that your perspective is correct.
I fundamentally disagree with this statement. Logic and engineering requires not just a refutation of the prevailing theories but the advancement of a plausible, supportable theory to replace it. I've not read such a comprehensive dynamic theory from you.
As has been pointed out, my car's owners manual does not state that punching holes into the sidewalls of my tires with a nail gun is A Bad Thing. It is presumed that the reader of the manual knows well enough to figure that out for themselves. Every manual is written for a specific intended audience, and use of that manual by others than for whom it was intended can be A Dangerous Thing.
The technical references that you cite are for use by factory armorers to use in assembling/repairing a rifle with known parts tolerances and fitment measurements. Once you move outside those bounds, the guidance in those manuals (or lack thereof) is no longer relevant.
I'm willing to change my mind when presented with evidence to the contrary. Really, I am. But until then, I will continue to treat my CETMEs as complex mechanical pressure vessels that operate safely only when all parts are held to a specified tolerance as provided by the manufacturer. Not that they cannot operate outside of that tolerance window, but (absence any alternate compelling evidence) I will presume that doing so sacrificies some margin of safety.
I'm more than happy to be educated. I'm not willing to be a pawn in y'alls ongoing pissing contest.
Drakejake
Member
rbernie,
I have posted my affirmative ideas dozens of times on various gun sites. I have also posted references to discussions which I consider worthwhile. These can be found easily using Google.
I have also made the point repeatedly that those who are telling others that their guns are unsafe and need to be rebuilt have the obligation of providing some proof, evidence, or examples of safety problems caused by ground bolts. Thus far, no such evidence has been presented. A gun owner who buys a gun and follows the manual does not have any obligation to disprove every crack pot idea someone may post on the Net. You may think I am a crackpot but I can live with that. Others can read my many posts on the Cetme and make up their own minds.
Since I have made my points as best I can, in THR, a forum not dominated by a Cetme "expert," I will retire from this discussion and let others continue it, if they wish.
Drakejake
I have posted my affirmative ideas dozens of times on various gun sites. I have also posted references to discussions which I consider worthwhile. These can be found easily using Google.
I have also made the point repeatedly that those who are telling others that their guns are unsafe and need to be rebuilt have the obligation of providing some proof, evidence, or examples of safety problems caused by ground bolts. Thus far, no such evidence has been presented. A gun owner who buys a gun and follows the manual does not have any obligation to disprove every crack pot idea someone may post on the Net. You may think I am a crackpot but I can live with that. Others can read my many posts on the Cetme and make up their own minds.
Since I have made my points as best I can, in THR, a forum not dominated by a Cetme "expert," I will retire from this discussion and let others continue it, if they wish.
Drakejake
It all boils down to this.
HK (and CETME before it) has put forth that bolt gap should be monitored, as an indicator on critical wear in the bolt locking sytem.
It further states that when gap decreases, to measure the internal components, and replace as needed to restore the gap to the proper range.
Obviously, since this is the bolt locking system, any excessive wear can become unsafe or damaging to the weapon. That doesn't need to be stated.
Now, if you have low or no gap, grinding the bolt increases the measured gap, but does absolutely nothing to the worn parts or locking timing. NOTHING. So all you have done is remove metal from the bolt of your weapon. Like has been stated before, the gap is nothing more than air, and the air does not do anything other than indicate wear. So a false, ground gap is just a false indicator of your worn parts. The locking system is still out of tolerance, and "could" cause many problems.
This is all fine and good, to run with a ground bolt, if it doesn't bother you. But to say it is the correct way to fix the gun, is both dangerous and just dumb. All the info on adjusting the gap is in the manual, NOWHERE is mentioned grinding metal.
HK (and CETME before it) has put forth that bolt gap should be monitored, as an indicator on critical wear in the bolt locking sytem.
It further states that when gap decreases, to measure the internal components, and replace as needed to restore the gap to the proper range.
Obviously, since this is the bolt locking system, any excessive wear can become unsafe or damaging to the weapon. That doesn't need to be stated.
Now, if you have low or no gap, grinding the bolt increases the measured gap, but does absolutely nothing to the worn parts or locking timing. NOTHING. So all you have done is remove metal from the bolt of your weapon. Like has been stated before, the gap is nothing more than air, and the air does not do anything other than indicate wear. So a false, ground gap is just a false indicator of your worn parts. The locking system is still out of tolerance, and "could" cause many problems.
This is all fine and good, to run with a ground bolt, if it doesn't bother you. But to say it is the correct way to fix the gun, is both dangerous and just dumb. All the info on adjusting the gap is in the manual, NOWHERE is mentioned grinding metal.
- Status