Chalk one up for freedom: NYC Sued Over Police Subway Bag Searches

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http://www.saf.org/viewoe.asp?id=99

[BLOCKQUOTE]
Dear Air Travelers, ACLU: Welcome to the world of insidious background checks

By Dave Workman

The American Civil Liberties Union – which recognizes nine of the first ten amendments in the Constitution, that section known as the Bill of Rights – is in something of a huff, as are a growing number of airline passengers, over new and intrusive security checks that will be instituted over the next few months.

Travelers have learned that the Transportation Security Administration – the same federal agency that is deliberately dragging its feet to prevent pilots from flying armed and providing a last line of aircraft security – will begin testing the new system soon. This invasive system will “color code” passengers, and could be accessing such things as credit history and medical records to do it, according to published reports.

Known as CAPPS II (Computer Assisted Passenger Pre-Screening), this program will require airline passengers to provide ticket agents with their name, address, telephone number, and date of birth. This information will serve as something of a gateway to all sorts of personal data. A lawyer for the ACLU in Washington D.C., Katie Corrigan, is very unhappy about this.

Where was Corrigan, and where were all the other critics of this new program, when federal legislation was passed that requires background checks and personal information on firearms buyers, and law-abiding citizens who want to obtain concealed pistol licenses? Where was the outrage, or even the concern, about the privacy rights of millions of Americans whose only crime is that they’ve wanted to exercise the constitutional right of gun ownership?

The right to bear arms is a civil right, recognized by the U.S. Constitution’s Second Amendment and specifically delineated as an individual right by the constitutions of most states. Air travel enjoys no such constitutional protection, yet the howls of anguish about invasiveness from the ACLU – which claims through some tortured logic that the right to bear arms is some sort of “collective” right – are all over the concern of people buying a lousy airplane ride.

For years, non-gun owners have wondered why their fellow citizens who do own firearms were so offended at having to submit to a background check. After all, the reasoning went, if gun owners have nothing to hide, what’s the problem? Now airline travelers and the ACLU have suddenly discovered what the problem is. Gun owners, like rape victims, feel violated. Yet, we’ve essentially been advised repeatedly in condescending tones, the rape is inevitable so “relax and enjoy it.”

The ACLU contends that this new security system could become “a real nightmare.” You want a genuine nightmare? Try being the guy whose gun purchase was denied because he was mis-identified by the National Instant Check System (NICS) as a convicted felon. Try being the man whose vengeful ex-wife or girlfriend falsely accuses him of domestic violence and obtains a restraining order against him, thus turning him into an instant federal felon for having a shotgun with which he hunts ducks. Try being the single mother who, terrified of an abusive ex-husband or boyfriend (who typically ignore restraining orders), suddenly finds herself having to endure a waiting period and background check before she can buy a gun to protect herself and her children.

Every day in this country, some poor citizen becomes a victim of a regressive gun law. Those people frequently turn to such organizations as the National Rifle Association or Second Amendment Foundation for help, because the ACLU won’t lift a finger – other than the middle one, perhaps – about their plight.

Gun owners have been told in patronizing terms that “If it saves the life of one child,” they must be willing to submit to insidious, guilty-until-proven-innocent requirements to exercise a right. Perhaps the ACLU and millions of offended airline travelers ought to be reminded that “If it saves one high rise building or a plane load of passengers” they ought to also just shut up, sit back, enjoy the wand rape, and allow the airlines to snoop into their private lives.

Or, perhaps we ought to get together and change things.

Dave Workman is senior editor of Gun Week, a publication owned by the Second Amendment Foundation.
[/BLOCKQUOTE]


Bold added. NOTE: I disagree with the opening line, "The American Civil Liberties Union – which recognizes nine of the first ten amendments in the Constitution, that section known as the Bill of Rights " I don't think the ACLU recognizes the 9th or 10th Amendments, either.
 
That's why the ACLU is so hard against even the smallest step towards something bigger and much uglier.

Actually, they support big steps when it's not something they are concerned with. They have no issue with gun control, as evidenced by their failure to take up that cause.

They are like the Mussollini of civil rights organizations; they make the "trains" run on time but have . . . issues with the rest.
 
How about a little profiling. Sixteen year old girls in skimpy clothing with a backpack probably isn't what they are looking for. Bet they get checked just the same. The five million riders comment really makes the case for looking for the threat not the numbers. The best thing is to strip search every NYC elected official on a daily basis. They might be up to no good.
 
When was the last time you ever, EVER heard a cop saying he woulden't do a search because it was against his oath?



>>>Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure we've got several of 'em volunteering their time as mods on this forum.<<<

"Volunteering" someones own personal time for an internet message board is something **completely** different than vowing to do your job and uphold the constitution when you are out in your professional capacity. The two are not comparable and are entirely different.
 
Finally, the ACLU is doing something right. I disagree with their stance on a lot of things, but there has to be a stop to the steady disappearance of our Fourth Amendment rights or we will become a police state in the not too distant future. Who wants that?

I think you can blame the politicians, but the cops are also very much to be held responsible here. Tyranny can only actually arrive at your doorstep wearing a policeman's badge.
 
>>>I think you can blame the politicians, but the cops are also very much to be held responsible here. Tyranny can only actually arrive at your doorstep wearing a policeman's badge.<<<

I think we can all blame the spineless judges for letting the politicians get away with it! Then you can blame the cops for enforcing it! It's a hugly vicious cycle and it's only going to end in a giant police state because people only love pointing fingers, not actually doing anything or acomplishing anything anymore, it's too media driven. If you aren't WITH the law you are a terrorist........ :barf:
 
The two are not comparable and are entirely different.
But the fact remains that there are quite a few non-jackbooted cops serving as moderators on this forum, and they have made their stances on these issues clear on many occasions.

He answered your question -- good cops exist. I've had my horrid experiences with cops as well, but there are quite a few good ones out there.

Unfortunately, it seems to be a rural vs urban thing, so cityfolks may be screwed in this regard.
 
I think the big issue here is that the NYPD decided to search baggage without any enabling legislation authorizing such searches.
The only "enabling legislation" I can envision making this legal would be an amendment to the US Constitution, repealing the 4th Amendment, and an amendmend to the New York Constitution, repealing Article I, Section 12.

Justin:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure we've got several of 'em volunteering their time as mods on this forum.
Nothing personal, of course, but need I bring up the famous coffee can remark? As with any broad selection of people, we have both the great and the, er, less-great. Logistics's question (though he gets pretty bitter later) still has some legitimacy: when was the last time you heard about it? Seriously--I know good cops exist, but I can't recall the last time I heard of a case like that. If I turn on the news, though, odds are better than even on any given day that I'll hear a story of a rights violation. Now, I'm sure a lot of that has to do with story selection, but it's still something with which we ought concern ourselves, especially as searches get more intrusive. We should be seeing mass resignations, given some of the searches we're seeing.

Rebar:
One of the issues here is that it's entirely possible to do without airline transportation. Matter of fact, I try my best to do so, being completely sick of their crap. Doing without the subway in NYC, however, is an entirely different matter. Traffic is horribly gridlocked, parking is unavailable; cars just aren't an option for several million residents of the city. Taking taxis would overwhelm the system by orders of magnitude--there are only 12053 of them--so that's out. Walking, given the distances that many would have to walk, isn't reasonable, and biking would rapidly reach gridlock (not to mention the safety issues in coexisting with either cars or pedestrians). In short, the subway system really isn't optional. The public ownership argument also applies, not because of who's doing the screening, but because of who owns and operates the system. The airlines are privately owned, and owe you nothing; the subway is a city-built and city-maintained resource, and owes its existence to the taxpayers.

To be fair, I don't think much of the government airline screeners (let the airlines decide to do it on their own; I guaran-damn-tee you their insurance companies will make them do it, and do it right), but the subway is a different case, and needs to be shut down hard. We all talk about the "slippery slope" in reference to our gun rights, and how no compromise is acceptable; same thing applies here. As others have said, the next step will be searching your car--especially large cars, SUVs, and pickup trucks--to make sure you're not carrying a bomb. (Actually, we already have some of that, brought to us by the War on Some Drugs, but we're not supposed to notice that....)

Edited to add:
Derek:
But the fact remains that there are quite a few non-jackbooted cops serving as moderators on this forum, and they have made their stances on these issues clear on many occasions.

He answered your question -- good cops exist. I've had my horrid experiences with cops as well, but there are quite a few good ones out there.

Unfortunately, it seems to be a rural vs urban thing, so cityfolks may be screwed in this regard.
Actually, I think you've hit on something here. I don't think I've heard any of our good cops tell stories of protesting a bad search they were ordered to commit; rather, I've heard stories (notably from LawDog, but there have been others) of "if I did that in my department, I'd be sent to jail/the psych ward." The good officers seem not to have needed to protest a bad search, because they seem to be in sane departments. Your rural/urban observation probably reveals a lot more truth here than you originally intended. An even better question, then, would be why we don't hear of cases like Logistics presented more often? Could it be that abusive police departments, in their interview and selection procedures, actively screen out pro-rights candidates? Do they just assign the bad searches to the officers who've demonstrated that they'll follow orders? The problem might just turn out to be institutional, rather than individual.
 
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Doing without the subway in NYC, however, is an entirely different matter.
To me, that is a excellent reason why the subway needs even more security.

The terrorists seem to have a made the city a symbol of America, and I think we can all agree that if they could, they would destroy it. Without the subway, NYC would die, for the reasons stated. It's not just a convienent public transportation system, it's vital infrastructure of the first order, and needs protection of some sort.

While this searching every 5th person nonsense is clearly ineffective, it certainly isn't the start of any "slippery slope". If anything, it'll show that random searches like what's being done is a waste of time and resources.
 
If we're going to complain that the ACLU doesn't do anything for RKBA then why don't we complain that the NRA isn't doing anything to fight censorship or seatbelt laws?


The ACLU doesn't agree with us on RKBA but they aren't activly fighting against us either ... yes many of them are leftist schmucks.


But in the areas where they are "fighting the good fight" we should support them.
 
The ACLU styles itself as the defender of civil liberties, while the NRA focuses on two distinct issues, the 1st and 2nd Amendment. That's one difference. The other is that the NRA recognizes the existence of the other liberties, while the ACLU does not.

As for not working against us, the ACLU publicly states that the right to bear arms is not an individual right. Thus, they perpetuate something that is known to be false by every scholar, but which the people tend to believe because the ACLU says it. That is working against us, whether you want to admit it or not.

But again, people supported Mussollini because he got the trains on schedule.
 
I just find it simply incredible that so many people in this so called "America" still find "law enforcement" to be a worthy profession. When was the last time you ever, EVER heard a cop saying he woulden't do a search because it was against his oath? They recruit kids these days SO young that they don't know what they are getting into, then in a few years they have a family, pension, and house over their heads paid for by good ole uncle sam and the police state. How can you POSSIBLY say "no" to a search when all of your personal well being is directly related too your unconstitutional searches and seizures justified by your employer? How do people just get it through their heads that working for the govt is NOT a worthy profession??? Why not actually go out in the world and produce something instead of being a leach onto society? Anyone else feel this way?

Wow...what a great reminder why I don't ever lurk/broswe here anymore.

I enjoy being a "leach". Gives me an opportunity to prevent people like you from parking rental trucks in front of buildings and blowing up children.

Like that generalization?
 
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Could it be that abusive police departments, in their interview and selection procedures, actively screen out pro-rights candidates?
I'm inclined to think it's an indoctrination thing more than anything else.

My wording might be heavy-handed, but it's amazing what kind of transformation you can cause in an 18-19 year-old dope-smoking kid by sending him to basic training, then jump school, then on to advanced training (my experience is in the Army playing infantry, but Marines and the like are probably similar).

Take a number of kids out of high-school where they've been taught that the world that exists "out there" is exactly what they're told it is, introduce some "us versus them" mentality, teach them to view every encounter with a citizen as an interaction with a likely/possible felon, and top it all off with the "main goal is to make it home at night" philosophy, and what do you have?

Certainly not a "community-oriented police force," unless by "community oriented" you mean they've got their guns pointed at the community at large.

A better question might be this: what percentage of big-city copy embrace the "militaristic" image versus those in small towns?
 
A better question might be this: what percentage of big-city copy embrace the "militaristic" image versus those in small towns?

Small towns have their own problems, typically the use of police power to carry out personal grudges or vendettas, for personal profit, or simply to gain power over others. Those of us who grew up in small towns can certainly remember instances of that.

Law enforcement is like any profession, in that people go into it for various reasons. Some become lawyers or doctors in order to help others, while some do it for the power/fame or God complex. It's the same with cops. The difference comes from the fact that: 1) lawyers and doctors can't combine any personal issues with the authority to use or threaten force; 2) the state often finds itself in an antagonistic position towards other professions, but not cops; and 3) conduct and excuses unacceptable in other professions ("I had to follow orders" can get most professional licenses pulled) are acceptable there.

There is one similarity: doctors, lawyers and cops, at one time, all had the respect of the population. Doctors made us healthy, lawyers kept us out of trouble by helping us understand and work with the law, and the police were here to protect us. Every profession has lost a lot of that respect by virtue of real or perceived abuses and a failure to adequately deal with said abuses.
 
Here we have the ACLU actually doing the right thing for once!

Even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.

I still hate the American Communnist Lawyer's Union and everything they stand for.

Just wait....this today, but tomorrow they are going to back at work stabbing America in her back like they always do, fighting for all that is immoral and anti-American.
 
I'm inclined to think it's an indoctrination thing more than anything else.

My wording might be heavy-handed, but it's amazing what kind of transformation you can cause in an 18-19 year-old dope-smoking kid by sending him to basic training, then jump school, then on to advanced training (my experience is in the Army playing infantry, but Marines and the like are probably similar).

Take a number of kids out of high-school where they've been taught that the world that exists "out there" is exactly what they're told it is, introduce some "us versus them" mentality, teach them to view every encounter with a citizen as an interaction with a likely/possible felon, and top it all off with the "main goal is to make it home at night" philosophy, and what do you have?

Certainly not a "community-oriented police force," unless by "community oriented" you mean they've got their guns pointed at the community at large.

A better question might be this: what percentage of big-city copy embrace the "militaristic" image versus those in small towns?
Best analysis I think I've read of this situation.
 
While this searching every 5th person nonsense is clearly ineffective, it certainly isn't the start of any "slippery slope".

I don't know how you can be so certain. The government is not real good at just taking a little bit and stopping. Once they start taking, they continue taking with no end in sight. You have to look no farther than your own income tax form to see this.

Would you be as tolerant of random searches on city sidewalks?

Where, if ever, would you draw the line on random searches in the name of public safety?
 
Which will result in their obtaining the services of Japanese terrorists, as was done in the 1970s.

Or they'll have Chechens do it. Or Americans of various ethnic backgrounds who have converted.

Profiling based on ethnicity alone is a doomed proposition as it leads to easily defeated target fixation, regardless of any concerns over rights.
 
We submit to 100% searches whenever getting on an airplane, up to and including strip searches,

And that's 100% wrong, too, IMO.
If the airlines had implemented this rule on their own, and enforced it on their own, fine. I could choose to fly on another airline, or not.
The fact is, subway searches and airline seaches are being performed by members of the government, with no basis for a search, and no warrants being issued. It's wrong.
Flame away. I'm used to it by now.
 
If I recall correctly, it basically provides a background check on all passengers, looking for indicators of illegal or suspect activity (i.e. large deposits into an account held by someone with massive credit problems could indicate a payoff).

Profiling focuses on ethnic characteristics while this would go after everyone and look at patterns regardless of ethnicity.
 
Racial profiling IS WHATS needed to be done.
Think the ACLU wouldn't be all over that like a chicken on a june bug?

I really think that a majority of citizens of NYC and other large City citizens of today's American will gladly give up ALL of their rights in the name of safety... and end up with nothing to show for it.

And doing either racial profiling (in NYC? HAH!) or bag/body searches on mass transit will likely yield a few arrests and a few explosions and a few dead (but searched) law abiding citizens with more restrictions to soon follow.

Something about being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Maybe it is time to plan your life for a thousand years, live your life like it's the last day and fight like hell for ALL of the remaining Freedom and Liberty our armed forces, police officers, firemen, etc have given their lives for while protecting our way of life.
 
Pardon me, but isn't the ACLU the organization that thinks the Second Amendment enshrines a police state?

And I am supposed to trust their take on what protects individual freedom...?
 
fjolnirsson

+1.
When the searches were done by private companies, even thoughI didn't like it, I think it was constitutional. The problem, as you so excellently describe, iis the government is now involved. Private companies and the government are two different issues.
I won't fly commercial anymorme because of that. Without PC the government has no right to search me, my property, or posessions. Same with the roadside stops. I think that too was the position of the minority
 
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