Changed bullets, loaded up 50 bad 9mm rounds

[WayneConrad]

Kead bullets is very, very, very slow to fill my order. So slow that I ran out of 9mm L-RN 124. So I bought myself a box of Lasercast 9mm L-RN 125 at Sportsman's and loaded up 50 of 'em.

These seem like nice bullets. They fit my seating die's round-nose stem like the Kead bullets don't, so they seat straight. But I got a rude surprise when I started dropping them into my max cartridge gage. Every single round is bad, and in exactly the same way: the rounds are interfering with the cartridge gage where the base of the bullet has created a bulge in the brass. Each round sticks out of the cartridge gage the same amount, so the problem is very uniform.

Why the heck did I have to load all 50 before gaging any of them? :banghead: I'm so frustrated I could spit bb's. What the blazes did I do wrong?

 

[caz223]

You didn't use a LEE factory crimp die....

 

[WayneConrad]

You didn't use a LEE factory crimp die....

I was waiting for that . I don't want this to become another Lee Factory Crimp Die debate, but I am tempted enough by the Lee FCD that I have one in my shopping cart at midway.com. If I can't figure out how to keep from creating bad rounds, I'll gladly pound 'em into submission. But first I'd like to see if there's anything I can do to keep the problem from happening in the first place.

 

[armoredman]

That's why I like my FCD, but I guess what you wanted was to measure the base of each bullet before loading...
The only 124s I used were some Hornady XTPs...so so accuracy.

 

[Sunray]

What happens when you drop one into your chamber?

 

[WayneConrad]

What happens when you drop one into your chamber?

They loaded cartridges fail to chamber in my P99, sticking out of the chamber the same distance that they stick out of the max cartridge gage.

The cases do fit in the max cartridge gage after resizing.

 

[caz223]

Yeah, this happens to me whenever I use RCBS dies and lead bullets in 9mm, without my FC die.
You can try miking bullets, changing seating stems, belling more, criming and seating in 2 different stages.
A quick and dirty fix for me was to mik the expander plug, and found it was slightly undersize, I used the one from my .357 mag (RCBS) die temporarily just for lead bullets and/or screw the 9mm sizing die up one turn to ease up on the taper.
Both of those will help, and I consider both of those worse than using a FC die.
Just some things to try.

Ever since I got dillon 9mm dies, that doesn't happen to me anymore.
I still use my FC die, and I still seat and crimp in different stages.

Oh, and I remember seeing a while back somebody that had this very problem, and it wound up that he had a 9mm roll crimp die.
Did you buy your dies NIB, or used?

 

[WayneConrad]

You can try miking bullets

I measured both the old and the new bullets. The new bullets are 0.357, as were the old ones.

belling more

Tried that last night. Even tried belling to the point of rediculousness. No joy.

crimping and seating in 2 different stages

I'm not using the taper part of my taper/crimp die, as just seating the bullet removes the bell completely. I did try crimping last night (as a separate step). Any amount of crimp I applied, from none through driving the case mouth into the bullet, did not make the cartridge chamber properly.

A quick and dirty fix for me was to mik the expander plug, and found it was slightly undersize, I used the one from my .357 mag (RCBS) die temporarily just for lead bullets and/or screw the 9mm sizing die up one turn to ease up on the taper.

I have a 38sp/357 mag expander die. I'll give it a try and report back.

Oh, and I remember seeing a while back somebody that had this very problem, and it wound up that he had a 9mm roll crimp die.

That was me . Changing to the taper crimp die fixed my problem with the old bullets. Now I got new bullets and a new problem.

Did you buy your dies NIB, or used?

Used. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but now I wonder.

 

[WayneConrad]

The 38 expander die didn't help.

I'm going to borrow dad's 9mm sizing die when I see him tomorrow. Maybe my sizing die is horked up. We'll see.

 

[Kamicosmos]

.357 bullets? Thought 9mm was .355? I know it's only 2 thousandsth of an inch, but...that'd be enough to bulge the case a bit.

 

[Mal H]

In general, lead bullets are slightly larger in diameter than jacketed bullets in most calibers. So 9mm lead bullets are usually swaged to .356". .357" is not the nominal 9mm lead bullet size. You might want to double check your caliper. Even so, I don't think .001" is going to cause a go/no go bulge in your rounds. I'd put my money on a crimping operation that may have gone too far while the bullet wasn't fully seated. That will almost always cause a bulge as you described.

Have you tried seating and crimping in separate stages?

 

[WayneConrad]

In general, lead bullets are slightly larger in diameter than jacketed bullets in most calibers. So 9mm lead bullets are usually swaged to .356". .357" is not the nominal 9mm lead bullet size. You might want to double check your caliper.

Yeah, the bullet box even says 0.356. I'll bring a few bullets over to dad's tomorrow and try his calipers. He has a micrometer we can use, too.

Have you tried seating and crimping in separate stages?

I'm not crimping at all: Just seating the bullet seems to remove all of the bell.

Just to see if crimping would help, I took one of my out-of-spec rounds and applied increasing amounts of crimp to it. I was able to crimp it to the point that the case mouth was driven into the bullet, but the round still failed to chamber.

 

[ReloaderFred]

If seating the bullet is removing the bell of the case mouth, then try backing the seating die out about 3/4 of a turn and then adjust the seating stem for the over all length you're loading to. It sounds like the crimping portion of the die is coming into contact with the case mouth and may be causing your problem, as the crimp may be starting before the bullet is fully seated.

I always back out the seating die to prevent the crimp from occuring during the seating process, and then use a separate crimping die.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[only1asterisk]

Maybe I should read better before I post!

 

[caz223]

Did you run your sizing die up a turn?
In conjunction with the expander plug from a .357, I just can't believe that it doesn't work.
Your expander plug from the 9mm die prolly mikes out at .353, if your bullets are .357, then that's just too much neck tension.
My .357 expander plug mikes out at .355, which would be fine with .357 bullets. (Which is what you have.)

My suggestion, adjust your size/decap die so that it contacts the shell plate/holder then a full turn up. This will move the taper up just a hair.

Use the expander plug from a .357 magnum/.38 spl.

Then adjust your crimp/seat die (With a belled round in it.) until it no longer removes all of the bell. Just some of it.
Then adjust your COL to what you were before with the seating stem, not by turning the die back down.

Check your bullet nose for deformation, if the seated bullets don't look like they have the same profile as an unloaded bullet, it's either STILL being crimped before it's fully seated, or you need a seating stem that better matches the bullet's profile.
Make sure that your seater doesn't get clogged up with lead shavings or 'rings' that will cause the bullet to seat unevenly.

If all that doesn't work, it may be time to either set aside those bullets for a rainy day, or go to midwayUSA.com and.....
A FC die will actually resize those lead bullets smaller and make them more uniform, as well as smoothing out the wrinkles, which sounds like a good thing, doesn't it?

Even if you get them to work without the FC die, they may be larger than nominal, which makes for unreliable feeding and chambering.
If your gun fires with a bullet that is oversize, and still chambers, at some point it MAY run into a bullet that is so oversize as to prevent the gun from locking up fully without tapping the slide forward.
If the gun happens to fire while not in full lockup, a lot of bad things can happen. Like case head failures, blown out extractors, etc.
I don't like lead bullets for that reason, they just aren't as uniform as good jacketed bullets. (At least *cheap* ones, esp. in 9mm, for some reason.)
If you have to *smack* the back of the slide to get it to fire, a FC die would be welcome peace of mind, at least to me.

 

[BruceB]

The quick-and-dirty fix for this problem is to remove the decapping assembly from the sizing die (if your particular die has such an assembly...some don't) and then back the die well out and start progressively sizing a LOADED ROUND until it will just chamber in the gauge or barrel. When that die setting is determined, size all 50 rounds.

Of course, this isn't a cure for the existing problem, but it should at least allow you to unload this batch of 50 "through the muzzle".

I've successfully used my own cast bullets as large as .358" in the three 9mms we currently own, and rounds so loaded will fit into my Wilson cartridge gauge. Mostly I prefer to size at .357, which works well in all three guns.

That bulge may be caused by two things: one is that a too-fat bullet is being seated to where it meets increasing thickness in the case wall, and the other, believe it or not, is excessive compression of powder or AIR in the case.

My first inclination would be to check that I'm using the longest-possible overall length that will function in my pistol. Note that some guns WILL accept rounds loaded to longer-than-SAAMI-spec OAL. The longer seating will both move the bullet base to where the case wall is thinner, and also reduce the compression referred to above.

Experimenting with a long-seated dummy round, trying first to fit it into the mag, and then ensuring that it will chamber, might help with the bulge problem. Again, this is a question of seat-and-try at a too-long length, and then seat a bit deeper, and try again, etc etc, until you reach a length that will just nicely work.

 

[caz223]

That's a great fix, but how is it any different than post-sizing with a FC die?
Other than not having to buy the die?

 

[WayneConrad]

Bullets too wide?

I took some of my brass and bullets over to dad's yesterday. We loaded one up using his dies, and got the same bad result. His sizing die is RCBS steel; mine is RCBS carbide. It doesn't look like the sizing or belling die is the problem.

We measured the diameter of these bullets I'm having trouble with (Laser Cast). They are 0.357 in diameter. According to the Speer #13, SAAMI max is 0.3555. For comparison, the jacketed speers that dad loads are 0.355. Dad and I now think that these bullets are just too wide. We wonder if their being hard-cast has something to do with my difficulities (would a soft bullet be more likely to give than to stretch the brass?).

It's time for me to order that Lee factory crimp die. I'm happy to use it now that I think I understand the problem. I just hate fixing problems without having some idea of what went wrong.

Oh, and I'm going to call Oregon Trail (the makers of LaserCast bullets) and find out what they know.

 

[caz223]

The .3555 diameter applies to jacketed bullets.
Lead are sized somewhat bigger, usually .356 or so.
They tend to be oversize, for some reason.
I read a very informative article on how the dimensions actully change once you pull the trigger.
I'm trying to find an article dealing with internal ballistics that explains why lead must be sized larger than jacketed.
I lack the articulation to properly explain it succinctly.

I rarely load lead, I can't say I don't, because I got about 2000 lead bullets left in various calibers. But it's been a while, however.

 

[WayneConrad]

My Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD) arrived, so I loaded up some test rounds, just brass and bullet. No sense wasting time with primer and powder. Here's the poop:

When I seat one of these 0.357 LaserCast bullets, it causes an out-of-spec bulge in the case, at the bullet base. The Lee FCD takes that bulge out and fixes the case. But the round still won't chamber. Although the FCD makes the case fit a SAAMI minimum chamber, the part of the bullet sticking out of the case is still too wide to fit in either my cartridge gauge or the chamber of my gun.

To figure this out, I ran a round through the FCD, and confirmed that it would not chamber. Then I pulled the bullet and confirmed that the case, sans bullet, would chamber. Well, it's got to be the bullet. So I took another post-FCD cartridge and hammered it into the cartridge gauge. When I hammered it back out, there was a ring of lead shaved off of the bullet where the bullet was too wide to fit in the cartridge gauge.

These bullets are just too danged wide.

I missed talking to the LaserCast tech last week: The LaserCast operator said that the tech is in on Thursday, and work got too busy for me to remember to call. I'll try again this week.

 

[caz223]

Sorry to hear about your frustrations, I stopped loading 9mm lead for that very same reason.

 

[WayneConrad]

caz, Thanks for your help so far (and thanks to everyone else who's been helping me figure this out). It may be frustrating, but I'm sure learning a lot. If it had just worked the first time, I wouldn't know jack about bullet sizing, SAAMI specs, and all that jazz.

I may try seating the bullets deeper so that I can get all of the bullet shank inside the case where the FCD will squish it down. If I do that, I will reduce the load a lot and work up in small increments, because I will have to go quite a bit deeper than my load books are telling me to go.

I'll add more when I know more.

 

[WayneConrad]

A quick update:

I tried seating the bullet deep enough that their entire base was inside the case where the FCD could fix it. That meant seating to 2.010" instead of 2.100", quite a bit deeper than what the load manual called for, so I worked up the loads carefully. Warning: Seating bullets deeper than the load book calls for increases pressure and may cause unhappy things to happen.

This worked.

After running the cartridges through the FCD, they all chambered fine in my max cartridge gauge, and all fired fine. None had problems feeding or cycling, and even the max load did not show signs of overpressure (which does not prove that there isn't overpressure; it only proves that there isn't extreme overpressure).