Changing stocks: Should I mess with a good thing?

[Bayourambler]

Well decision for now is to try to stiffen the forearm on this hogue stock some.It fits my kids well and that what really matters, Just playing around with it , the front of the stock touches the barrel about half of the time when setting up to shoot. I would guess bedding the forearm and free floating the barrel can’t hurt.

 

[Danoobie]

I can only think of two good practical reasons to change the stock. First, if the LOP is too short for you, and you can
find a better stock with a longer length-of -pull. Or, if the original stock is really flimsy and light, my experience with
Hogue is they generally don't make junky stuff. Maybe this stock is an exception, or just poorly engineered for this
model of rifle? Because I'm also in the school of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

 

[taliv]

Well decision for now is to try to stiffen the forearm on this hogue stock some.It fits my kids well and that what really matters, Just playing around with it , the front of the stock touches the barrel about half of the time when setting up to shoot. I would guess bedding the forearm and free floating the barrel can’t hurt.

touching about half the time is as bad as it gets.

"bedding" it won't help. "free floating" it means putting it in a mill and removing material until it won't flex far enough to touch the barrel. that may make the forearm weak enough to snap under pressure, but probably not. I have no idea how to "stiffen" it unless you want to drill a hole through it and insert a steel rod or something

finding a quality stock that fits kids is a challenge for sure. let us know how it turns out

 

[1stmarine]

Well decision for now is to try to stiffen the forearm on this hogue stock some.It fits my kids well and that what really matters, Just playing around with it , the front of the stock touches the barrel about half of the time when setting up to shoot. I would guess bedding the forearm and free floating the barrel can’t hurt.

I recall at the time we did some diy fixes/projects and folks spent 1/2 gallon in expensive bedding while others had very good results with rocktite just for the front area.
If you put a couple of long cements screws into the block and hollow all the plastic ribs that are useless anyway, rocktite will make that section as stiff as an iron bar.
Those cement screws are very hard steel too so the longer they are the more support will have and rocktite is cheap and it is for anchors in the first place.
Then for the rest you can do a proper bedding if you want. Basically you are making a cantilever support using a very hard alloy and anchoring compound.
Rocktite can also be used in the back in case you want to embed a couple of pvc pipes and fill them with lead shot for balance and tuning and that work like a dead blow hammer.
It depends on what you shoot but might make a difference in comfort for the kids.
These are simple enhancements to salvage the factory stock. I like the rubbery texture and positive grip of the hogge stock. Too bad they do not make the budget ones a bit stiffer.

just fyi of course..

 

[Bayourambler]

I recall at the time we did some diy fixes/projects and folks spent 1/2 gallon in expensive bedding while others had very good results with rocktite just for the front area.
If you put a couple of long cements screws into the block and hollow all the plastic ribs that are useless anyway, rocktite will make that section as stiff as an iron bar.
Those cement screws are very hard steel too so the longer they are the more support will have and rocktite is cheap and it is for anchors in the first place.
Then for the rest you can do a proper bedding if you want. Basically you are making a cantilever support using a very hard alloy and anchoring compound.
Rocktite can also be used in the back in case you want to embed a couple of pvc pipes and fill them with lead shot for balance and tuning and that work like a dead blow hammer.
It depends on what you shoot but might make a difference in comfort for the kids.
These are simple enhancements to salvage the factory stock. I like the rubbery texture and positive grip of the hogge stock. Too bad they do not make the budget ones a bit stiffer.

just fyi of course..

I never thought of putting screws through the ribs,it will act like anchor bolts in concrete. That's a good idea. I was just going to drill a bunch of holes through them to lock the job all together, but this should be better. I own a collison repair shop and though the years have learned to work with plastic everyday. (All of these cars are plastic now) I believe I can make this forarm stuff enough to stop all this flex. Thanks for the input!

 

[LoonWulf]

Its easier to just cut the ribs out with a sharp knife, or side cutter. I did a rem sps stock with carbon fiber arrow pieces and casting resin, and a savage 10 with just westsystems epoxy. Only thing is that you want a epoxy with little shrinkage, or you need tod work im smaller quantities.

 

[taliv]

Try not to turn it into a tuning fork

 

[Bayourambler]

Its easier to just cut the ribs out with a sharp knife, or side cutter. I did a rem sps stock with carbon fiber arrow pieces and casting resin, and a savage 10 with just westsystems epoxy. Only thing is that you want a epoxy with little shrinkage, or you need tod work im smaller quantities.[/QUOTE

Carbon arrows huh? I have some of those....

 

[1stmarine]

Other good ideas here. Many ways to skin a cat.
After you stiffen the hand-guard area you can do a proper bedding job in the back using a good epoxy. I don't think one wants to go too deep but since the block
is made of plastic I would make it reasonably deep and it will behave like a brand new stock inside. Perhaps the way it should be to start with, but you know factory stocks...
I forgot if they have pillar bushings but those are easily made too.
good luck.

 

[Bayourambler]

Other good ideas here. Many ways to skin a cat.
After you stiffen the hand-guard area you can do a proper bedding job in the back using a good epoxy. I don't think one wants to go too deep but since the block
is made of plastic I would make it reasonably deep and it will behave like a brand new stock inside. Perhaps the way it should be to start with, but you know factory stocks...
I forgot if they have pillar bushings but those are easily made too.
good luck.

Yes it does have pillar bushings. I might just do the recoil lug forward.

 

[LoonWulf]

Id go ahead and at least skim bed the whole thing, theres usually some side to side play in the stocks if nothing else.
What ill usually do (and this is how i bed all stocks now) is remove a square section around the front pillar, from just behind it all the way to the lug recess (i usually removed some material from the middle,back of the lug recess as well), and up the sides a ways, to make sort of an epoxy bedding block. Then remove a triangle shape chunk at the rear using the pillar as the rear most point of the triangle. That way youve got some thicker epoxy riding up the sides of the action.
I also like to relieve the bottom and fill the whole lug recess if i can as well, but ive only done that on 2 stocks, so i cant say if it really helps stiffen that junction or not.

Ive honestly got no idea of the extra work really helps, Ive never had a gun with a bad enough bedding job to see a huge difference, but it makes me feel better.....

 

[LoonWulf]

Try not to turn it into a tuning fork

Im still learning about all this stuff, but how would stiffening the forend effect barrel harmonics? unless its touching of course.

 

[1stmarine]

Im still learning about all this stuff, but how would stiffening the forend effect barrel harmonics? unless its touching of course.

Anything that touches the barrel might have an impact on harmonics so by stiffening the stock we are removing those we cannot control but we can still introduce methods
we can control in order to tune that barrel.
Initially the most popular way is to simply adjust the torque on the action screws and this will impact the tune of the entire group.
There are other methods like dampening devices, extra screws, adjustable muzzle brakes (boss), etc... all from simple to more exotic.
A 20" SPS is short enough that has many accuracy nodes so I would not be too worried about it, other than adjusting torque in the action screws.

In this case I would go a bit deeper than skim bedding and to give more strength on the lateral structure that is also plastic so all the way from the front
to the back and making sure one has good contact with the pillars. But it doesn't have to be super deep neither imo. I think the most important part
is in the lug area to make sure that whatever solution we implement to stiffen the front is one solid unit and one with the front block and also is not
affected by heat. That is also why we should never allow the barrel to touch the bedding under the shank ahead of the lug.
It should be a fun project and if @Bayourambler has a collision repair shop I am sure he has the tools and skills do a better job than most of us here.

 

[Varminterror]

"Tuning fork" problems, at least those I'm familiar with, are caused when you stiffen the forend, but can't stiffen the action junction or action inlet of the stock - so you have a stiff barrel and a stiff forend, with a relatively flexible relationship between them. In other words, stiffening the forend doesn't do you much good if the action portion of the stock remains flexible. A guy can take an action out of a stock and do some forced bending of the stock over your thigh, you'll be able to feel where exactly the stock wants to flex. Quite often, it's NOT the forend, you know that part where everybody on youtube pours a pound and a half of epoxy, which offers the most flex.

 

[Bayourambler]

"Tuning fork" problems, at least those I'm familiar with, are caused when you stiffen the forend, but can't stiffen the action junction or action inlet of the stock - so you have a stiff barrel and a stiff forend, with a relatively flexible relationship between them. In other words, stiffening the forend doesn't do you much good if the action portion of the stock remains flexible. A guy can take an action out of a stock and do some forced bending of the stock over your thigh, you'll be able to feel where exactly the stock wants to flex. Quite often, it's NOT the forend, you know that part where everybody on youtube pours a pound and a half of epoxy, which offers the most flex.

What if I put a few small screws into the block that the recoil lug sits into? That way the forearm and that block become one with the front area. That would be simple, and the screws would have the head and threads for tying it all in.

 

[Bayourambler]

Anything that touches the barrel might have an impact on harmonics so by stiffening the stock we are removing those we cannot control but we can still introduce methods
we can control in order to tune that barrel.
Initially the most popular way is to simply adjust the torque on the action screws and this will impact the tune of the entire group.
There are other methods like dampening devices, extra screws, adjustable muzzle brakes (boss), etc... all from simple to more exotic.
A 20" SPS is short enough that has many accuracy nodes so I would not be too worried about it, other than adjusting torque in the action screws.

In this case I would go a bit deeper than skim bedding and to give more strength on the lateral structure that is also plastic so all the way from the front
to the back and making sure one has good contact with the pillars. But it doesn't have to be super deep neither imo. I think the most important part
is in the lug area to make sure that whatever solution we implement to stiffen the front is one solid unit and one with the front block and also is not
affected by heat. That is also why we should never allow the barrel to touch the bedding under the shank ahead of the lug.
It should be a fun project and if @Bayourambler has a collision repair shop I am sure he has the tools and skills do a better job than most of us here.

I will figure out how to post pics and show how I do it. For good or worse! You never know, I might save some poor guy a lot of wasted time who was thinking of doing this . Lol

 

[1stmarine]

"Tuning fork" problems, at least those I'm familiar with, are caused when you stiffen the forend, but can't stiffen the action junction or action inlet of the stock - so you have a stiff barrel and a stiff forend, with a relatively flexible relationship between them. In other words, stiffening the forend doesn't do you much good if the action portion of the stock remains flexible. A guy can take an action out of a stock and do some forced bending of the stock over your thigh, you'll be able to feel where exactly the stock wants to flex. Quite often, it's NOT the forend, you know that part where everybody on youtube pours a pound and a half of epoxy, which offers the most flex.

The way I understand the tunning fork is in those chasis and rifles where things are so rigid and stiff that one can even feel the vibration going trough your arms
and w/o anything to help attenuate the vibration.
That is why I still prefer a warm chasis vs a cold one, not just a matter of comfort and personal preference but normally even with the full length aluminum bedding
and ribs the syntetic material has enough mass to absorve great deal of that vibration. And not that all vibration translates into changed harmonics but it actually
feels better.
If we were talking about motorcycles some might say they prefer a chasis with a bit of flex so they can feel the limits of the structure rather than somethig so rigid
that is not easy to make that differentiation.
So I think with a plastic hogue stock there is little to worry about on this regard. Plenty of mass in a soft material and that is also why of the reasons it needs fixing
in the first place. I like the way is finished with that rubbery texture and positive grip so too bad the budget models do not come out with a bit more rigidity and quality.
But we know this tupperware stock fashion is the norm with budget syntactic stocks so we either fix them, replace them or live with them.
At least the hogue is not like the 700 ADL Gander special that are total garbage. Even worse than the ruger or axis budget stocks.

 

[1stmarine]

I mean, it almost feels that if one is a handy person the stock is simply a template to get a proper bedding and structure done. Then the cosmetics who cares right if they do the job and get all used and banged up as they should.

 

[hdwhit]

My question is , why do I want to put another stock on it!?

I don't know. Why do you want to replace the stock?
If there's something wrong with the stock, then replace it.
If it interferes with the function of the rifle, replace it.
If you just need to replace the stock so it will seem like "your rifle" rather than someone else's cast-off, replace it.

But if the reason you're thinking about replacing the stock is simply because some anonymous person on a gun forum told you something magical would happen and all of sudden your gun would be like Queen Susan's arrows in the Narnia tales, then ignore them, take the money you would have otherwise spent on a stock and either invest it or spend it on your wife and/or children.

 

[Bayourambler]

I started messing with it this evening and decided to notch out a grove through the ribs and slide in this piece of aluminum channel I found. I will drill a few holes through and allow the compound to flow through and around the channel. Next, I will put a couple of screws through the first rib to connect the this whole forearm into the recoil lug block. I decided not to compromise the first rib in front of the recoil lug.

 

[LoonWulf]

NICE!

 

[1stmarine]

I started messing with it this evening and decided to notch out a grove through the ribs and slide in this piece of aluminum channel I found. I will drill a few holes through and allow the compound to flow through and around the channel. Next, I will put a couple of screws through the first rib to connect the this whole forearm into the recoil lug block. I decided not to compromise the first rib in front of the recoil lug.

Nice! ...I think if you take that bar and cut the top for like 2 inches and then split it like a V in one end then you can run those on the sides of the recoil lug and deep into the large block under the action.
This will make anchor that right under the action where the action screw goes. can also drill small holes to let the epoxy flow inside and bond everything really well. I would go to town to make
that thing a big block under there.
just thinking out loud here.

 

[Bayourambler]

Done. The aluminum channel bedded in nice and snug. I put 2 screws in from just each side of the channel at an angle into the sides that fit just on each side of the recoil lug to help a little with overall vertical flex. Also , I skim bedded the entire action. Filled the hollow plastic stock with 9 oz of seam sealer to balance things out. I haven’t shot it yet but will be surprised if it shoots any different to be honest. This is only the 2nd rifle I bed. I will say this, the rifle just feels better balanced all around. The thing felt front heavy before. I did the barrel float test with a dollar bill using all kind of rests and now it does not touch at all. Before you had to pay attention how you rested it because it was not consistant. Total cost 20 bucks. Even if it shoots the same , it feels better and surely more solid without that hollow stock.

 

[1stmarine]

Done. The aluminum channel bedded in nice and snug. I put 2 screws in from just each side of the channel at an angle into the sides that fit just on each side of the recoil lug to help a little with overall vertical flex. Also , I skim bedded the entire action. Filled the hollow plastic stock with 9 oz of seam sealer to balance things out. I haven’t shot it yet but will be surprised if it shoots any different to be honest. This is only the 2nd rifle I bed. I will say this, the rifle just feels better balanced all around. The thing felt front heavy before. I did the barrel float test with a dollar bill using all kind of rests and now it does not touch at all. Before you had to pay attention how you rested it because it was not consistant. Total cost 20 bucks. Even if it shoots the same , it feels better and surely more solid without that hollow stock.

It looks good from this end. Great job!

 

[LoonWulf]

Try flex testing it yet?