charg'n Grizzly wait...wait?

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16n69

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I am somewhat perplexed, amused & alarmed (mix of those 3) ...at the "accounts" of quite a few who HAVE been "charged" by a Grizz or Brown and have had the luxury of a bit of "time & distance"?
What I mean is....they did NOT shoot, but waited to determine if it was the allegedly common "bluff" charge.
ARE THEY SERIOUS???
Given the below ... copy of 2 posts from another forum that describe, (as do many others from other forums)...just how fast and how much ground a bear can cover with little time to react, EVEN in the case of decent yardage & open country at the onset of the "charge'....who, repeat WHO, in thier right mind is NOT going to shoot and wait and see if it is a "bluff"...and that so called "wait" or hesitation often brings that bear within precious few yards or feet with NO time left after that in which to react if it turns out not a bluff?

SEE THIS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMbnmLLnsfw

Uh, I don't think so...as for me...as they say int the world of dirtbag "perp" assaults..."I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"...YES, bring on the Dept. of Wildlife officers...said bear charges me especially with the luxuray of some distance & time...bear dies (hopefully, lol) no benefit of doubt here!

ALSO...If I am in Brown/Grizz country and NOT hunting them, I want as much gun/caliber with cartridges/bullets that offer a combination or balance of the most M.E. - S.D. & MEPLAT in the largest bore I can handle...quick handling & iron sights...say something like a Marlin 1895 SBL in 45-70 loaded with Garrett Hammerhead ammo...if I AM hunting them, then give me similar in a longer reaching flatter shooting hunting round but with similar "most M.E. - S.D. & MEPLAT in the largest bore I can handle".

QOUTE: "#9 Re: 300 win mag vs. grizz.......?
Posted
08/06/2008
08:53 AM
Yes you can but why? For grizz go for a 340 and a heavy for caliber premium bullet. Grizz are large powerful, heavly muscled, dense tissued, big boned, and very tough. An enraged grizz can cover 100 yards in about 5 seconds with his lungs full of blood and running dead on his feet. If you do not anchor him on the first shot he may go down, he may not. If he does go down when he gets back up he will be running in what ever direction his nose is pointing. If that direction is your direction you are now in deep kimchee my son. It will be at that precise moment in time that you will wish you had a bigger gun in your hand instead of your johnson. If he runs into the thick, now you got to have your marlbourgh moment and then go in and get em. You do not want to do that. This is where things get real intense real fast. It is now time to break out the automatic 12 guage shotguns loaded with magnum slugs with short rifled barrels. Scoped rifles are useless in the thick alder and devils club. Keep in mind if he is not dead he is back tracking you with one thought in mind, to kill you.
Cheers & Tighter Groups: Eaglesnester


#12 Re: 300 win mag vs. grizz.......?
Posted
08/12/2008
06:53 PM
I got charged twice yesterday by a sub-adult who was being,as they say, a "hooligan"! On the first charge the bear covered about 120 yds. in about 6-8 sec. They look like a small car coming at you! On the second charge it ran through some very heavy underbrush and over a lot of deadfall as if nothing was there at all. The first charge he stopped at about 20 yds., then came about 5 yds. closer in 3 bounds. The second charge he stopped about 10 ft.! away. He woofed,snorted and flaired his lips and nostrils. I was wishing I had a 12 gauge with 2 rds. of O buck and a magazine of slugs! All I had was a can of pepper spray and a trekking pole. This is my tenth and most aggressive encounter so far. They are huge, fast, agile creatures."
 
I am of the other mind - I intend to not be within miles of a grizzly. We have little black and brown bears out here, and they are enough for me. :) If I DO get attacked, I hope that whatever I may have at the time might do the trick, even if its just a 9mm pistol...in which case the coroner might have to identify me from my rings and wallet pulled out of his stomach! :)
 
I think the OP is suggesting that one should always shoot when charged by a bear and not wait until it gets close. That sounds overly simplistic to me and could get a lot of bears killed for no good reason. A more reasonable approach might be to have some threshold distance at which one shoots if the bear is still charging. I don't have it to hand but I think one book I read suggested 25 yards as the distance at which you shoot.
 
duns said:
I think the OP is suggesting that one should always shoot when charged by a bear and not wait until it gets close. That sounds overly simplistic to me and could get a lot of bears killed for no good reason. A more reasonable approach might be to have some threshold distance at which one shoots if the bear is still charging. I don't have it to hand but I think one book I read suggested 25 yards as the distance at which you shoot.
Click to expand...
No. let me clarify what I meant...at some reasonable point, not long range...but long enough so one could have several shots if the 1st critical shot is not perfect...it could require quite a few more to put down a committed bear...I am told by those who have.
 
The problem here is, at what point can you be completely clear that it isn't a bluff charge. Of the 2 Brown Bear charges where I had to put them down, the male had bluff charged me a couple of times. A full grown Brown can cover 25 yards in literally the blink of an eye. One crosses that 25 yard threshold and you are good to go on a LEGAL defense shoot. I've had many others bluff, huff, and fur up at me but an experienced outdoorsman with many encounters with Bears can usually tell a bluff from a charge.

Too many people worry about this stuff. The odds of a Brown Bear attacking someone is VERY high against it. The fact is, 99.9% of Bear attacks are caused from people surprising the Bear and not using simple common sense when in THEIR territory. Use a bit of common sense when walking in their territory and avoid walking through the thick stuff. Keep your eyes and nose open (yes you can easily smell a Bear) and make noise.
 
Good common sense advice...I know to do this, and will...but was thinking about the hesitation could prove fatal and would rather err on the side of caution and shoot early enough to give myself a fighting chance.
But as you say, of course, avoidance is the best defense.
 
charg'n Grizzly wait...wait?
Stupid is as stupid does. Puts me in mind of the TV show about the grizzly guy who thought these wild predators were his friends right up until one ate him and his girlfriend. Hopefully that idiot never reproduced and passed on the stupid gene.
 
Freedom_fighter_in_IL said:
The problem here is, at what point can you be completely clear that it isn't a bluff charge.
Click to expand...
See "Bear Encounter Survival Guide" by James Gary Shelton. On pages 122-123, he gives guidelines for when to shoot. Essentially, he says to ready yourself to shoot at 75 meters and to shoot at 25 meters IF ... and then he gives a list of five behaviors that would indicate it is NOT a bluff charge. He adds that it is your prerogative to increase these distances. He adds "But if you shoot a sow at 50 meters when the cubs have already started away from you, then you are not giving her much of a chance". I thoroughly recommend that book (paperback about $14 from Amazon).

I also recommend "A Kodiak Bear Mauling" by Keith Rogan (Kindle edition $4.99) for further insights into bear behavior and also a really good read with fascinating details of life on Kodiak island.
 
I guess this is one of those questions that to answer it "properly", you need to have been there...

DM
 
I have never been charged by a bear and not had a bear encounter since I was three years old and 3 feet away from a black bear with nothing but a tent between us.

Nevertheless, I have read a lot of books and seen so many discussions on this issue in addition to reading just about every bear attack that happens each year to know you have to be prepared in advance to have a successful defense against these creatures.

There were many things in medicine that I was trained for and hopefully would recognize during my career that I never once saw. Just because you have not had that direct face to face encounter yet does not mean you have to be ill prepared God forbid should it ever happen.
 
There's a fairly decent sized (best guess, around 400 lbs, maybe bigger) black bear that has been roaming my neighborhood knocking over trash cans and generally being a nuisance. We've found the remains of one of the neighbor's dogs that had been savaged (not eaten, just killed).

I've seen the bear from a distance only once, while sitting on my porch late at night smoking a cigarette. I watched him attempt to chase one of the stray cats from the neighborhood. (they're WAY too quick for him to catch them) This bear is FAST. He doesn't look like he's moving very quickly, especially the way he sort of "lumbers" around, but he covers an impressive distance in a shockingly short amount of time.

Even small bears are immensely powerful creatures. I believe that if I find myself facing down this bear, I'll probably unload my 1911 (FMJ, ~950fps) into its upper chest and/or face in hopes of giving myself enough time to get to my Mosin M44 loaded with heavy ball. If the bullet(s) don't stop the bear, at the least I can ground the butt of the rifle and spit it on the bayonet for one last contact distance shot.
 
I live in Polar/Brown/Black Bear country, and I have never been charged. I hunt the Arctic here year round and I simply practice "keep Bears outta camp" ways of avoiding such. Fact is , I do not know anyone, other than fly up tourists who have had Bear problems. Eskimo' have developed the "piss fence", loose dogs(they absolutely HATE each other), clean camping, playing music and not traveling thrugh dense country without singing a song loud and making lotsa noise.....seen many a Bear running up the hill outta creek beds ahead of where Im walking, so letting them know your comming is pretty effective in my observation.

Regardless, I and most everyone I know carrys a Rifle as their Bear pistol, though some do carry pistols,like when beery picking of Fishing, as well, most pistols are shot in the air as a warning to Bear and folks alike, immediatly apon seeing the Bear,even if its 1/2 a mile away, so there is no charge, just a bullet returning to Earth and a Bear running away.

Even with a chargeing Bear, placement is everything.
 
I've seen video of a bluff charge. Some guys were filming some stuff for youtube and as they were returning to base camp a grizz charged them. By the time they had the .44 mag drawn, the bear had stopped it's charge. The bear only charged for 2 seconds. By the time you were on target you would have seen that. So yeah, "time and distance" is more than plausible.
 
If that is the fishing guys returning with a bucket of salmon, they heard the bear before they saw him and the bear only ventured out of the woods for a quick rush at them and then right back into the woods.

Very fast and scary for sure. I would want more than a .44 magnum in my hands at that point, but better than nothing. The scary aspect is how dense the woods were right next to the trail they were walking. Very little time for warning before you could even see the critter.

Goes right along with, stay out of the thick stuff. One or two people in a group and dense brush with poor visibility were the two largest factors in bear attacks in a study from Alaska a couple of years back. Can't find that study online any longer but it is quite informative.

With 4 or more people, attacks are very rare as they are also in more open country.
 
Caribou has the correct program. Make noise, have dogs around and have fun. Do not sneak around in the alders like a fool, surprise a bear and you will be attacked.

Don't shoot a charging bear until it is close, you will just waste your ammo. They are unbelievably fast, but they make plenty of noise at full steam too. If you are in brush they like to get close to where they think you are and stand up to try and see you, if it is open area they will just come full tilt. If you are in the brush with a wounded one they will be sneakier than a bobcat and just as quiet, they will lie in wait under cover or circle and stalk you.

30-06 and up is ok for any bear, I would much rather have a Mosin with a bayonet than any handgun. If you use a levergun the bullets must be capable of penetration, I have seen several animals shot with round nose ammo that didn't penetrate 3 inches. All that said a 12 gauge with slugs or slugs and buckshot is the absolute best, period.
 
I've backpacked and camped within grizzley country of Wyoming armed with only a single shot 16 gauge shotgun and did not feel afraid at all. Nope, never faced a charging animal, yet.

TR
 
My "bear" gun is my .444 with Buffalo Bore 335 gr bullets at 2025 fps with muzzle energy over 3000 ft-pds. That is better than a .500 S&W and I am much more accurate with rifle by far compared to a revolver.
 
I'd probably carry a mares leg for that reason. Better sight radius, rifle power, relatively light.
 
I have allways given bears a wide birth, especially in the spring, but I did witness 1 charge on my cousin who was looking through a camera at the time, by the time he realized the bear was serious it was all he could do to jump in the back of the truck he was standing a few feet from. The bear relented once he was out of sight. Even if he could have drawn a weapon, judging by the way he was shaking, the chance of a well placed shot would have been little to none.
 
I believe I read once where Master Guide Park Munsey who held Alaskan Master Guide Lic. #1 opted for his Win. Model 12 with a cut down barrel and staggered loads of 12ga. slugs and 00 buckshot when tracking wounded bear in the Alder thickets..... over his .375 H&H.
 
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