Cheaper Than Dirt won't ship legal "assault weapon gear" to CA

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Money is the answer to the, "Why live in the prk ? Threads.

But I am wishing more and more everyday that I lived in Stateline, or reno .

in Just a couple more years. I will sell my properties and escape. I dont want my little girl to end up at Berkly, reading the Koran in Spanish.


I had a nightmare about that. I always thought, if we tried hard enough, we could reverse some of this madness.

I am not saying all is lost. But it is close. I buy ammo from CTD once amonth. I might re-think this and go to Double tap.
 
Cheaper Than Dirt won't ship legal "assault weapon gear" to CA

Lots of a**holes out there, CTD, Bloss, Century. They all obey laws that don't exist. Lots of other places to spend your money.
 
I try to send money when Californians are tilting at windmills - like the .50BMG ban. My thanks to all who stay and fight to reclaim the state.

That said(c), I was just digging through my copy of the BATFE provided "State Laws and Published Ordinances - Firearms" 26th edition. Something that even us 03 FFLs get.

You may be familiar with it: 458 pages. Kinda small font size, arranged in 3 columns.

Pages 1 through 16 include Alabama, Alaska, American Samoa, Arizona and Arkansas.

California starts on page 16 and concludes on page 84. This includes codes for Anaheim, Bakersfield, Fremont, Fresno, Glendale, Huntington Beach, Long Beach, Los Angeles (county), Los Angeles (municipal), Oakland, Riverside, Sacremento, San Diego (county), San Diego (municipal), San Francisco, San Jose, Santa Ana and Stockton.

By itself, San Francisco takes up 6 pages: 50% more than the entire state of Texas.

Don't take it personally, guys. But I can see where people without full time legal departments would be circumspect about shipping into that legislative sinkhole. Feel free not to buy from those nervous about shipping to CA. No hard feelings here.

In fact, were I to find myself in CA, my inclination would be to support any reasonable local business that could survive in that atmosphere.
 
My best wishes to you Californians... I was fortunate to get out right after high school.

I remember how cool it was walking into the local Nevada gun shop and walking out with a Romanian AK47, 500rds of ammo and a 30rd mag. Wow! Drove directly out to the desert and had the funnest time of my life.

It's nearly been a decade since I left California and every time I visit family in Southern California it seems to resemble Mexico more and more.

I feel sorry for Californian's, but then again it's happening in Southern Nevada and Arizona as well.
 
First thing: don't buy a thing from CtD or SG. They have nothing you need that can't be bought from other places, often for less money.

We've done this before; retail businesses have a duty to their investors, and choose what they will sell and to whom they will sell based on criteria that are satisfactory to themselves. How can we argue with that? We expect no outside interference with our choices, right?

On the other hand, customers who think the policies are idiotic, inappropriate, or just inconvenient have the right to choose whether to give money to those businesses. "Right" will be established by whether those businesses survive and prosper.

Do your part to be sure CtD and SG do not thrive. Write them and tell them that is what you are doing. Send them copies of sales receipts for products they sell in other places than where you live, that you were able to get from merchants with more acceptable policies.

If enough business goes to competitors, and the 'bad' businesses know about it, the 'bad' businesses will be unable to meet their corporate goals.

If they cannot meet corporate goals, they will either change their goals, change their business policies to recover lost business, or go out of business.
 
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If I was mail order selling stuff (gun stuff), I would not sell to anybody in CA, IL, WI, or Ny just on principle.

I especially think CA sucks.

Hey, If I go out of business, I will be where I am now.

That does not ameleriate the fact that CA sucks.
 
Expanding and fragmenting ammo has been illegal a long time in San Francisco, but CTD never had ammo sale restrictions to S.F.

It may have changed, but at one time the "ammo" CTD was a legally and managerially separate company, but marketed and sold through the CTD channel. It would explain the different policies.

But to back up, trying to make my way through CA Penal Code 12020, etc., I can see why they would believe it illegal -- or at least risky -- to ship most of those into California:

Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to
convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C),
inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in
subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if
those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same
person.

This type of language, "designed and intended to convert", shows up in several areas, particularly around the "forbidden features" and shotguns. I can see why their attorney might advise them to stay away from shipping those items into the state. Note, please, that they don't need to be convicted, just involved in a legal dispute, for it to be a bad business decision.

So, they have a belief that the law does not allow them to ship these items into California. A conservative interpretation, perhaps. And they explicitly invite you to take it up with the lawmakers on their website. I can't fault them for it, myself.

That said, I find Midway and Brownells better, cheaper and faster.
 
Guns and Labs

Let me expand your quotation:

E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.
(2) As used in this section, a "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:
(A) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(B) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(C) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

I'm not talking about short barrels, which CTD doesn't even sell, I'm talking about things like vertical foregrips, collapsing stocks, etc., which are legal on non-SB23 rifles.
 
No need to complain, private business can do as they please. Let your money do your talking.
 
So CI, are you in need of any of these items CTD won't ship to CA, or are you just complaining to make a point? Until you want to buy something they won't sell you, then you have no complaint. Even if you do want to buy something they won't sell you, you still may not have a valid complaint.

I can blame Cheaper Than Dirt, because they are going beyond the law to further restict the RKBA of Californians

Get over the whole martyr thing. This is not a valid complaint. CTD is NOT restricting your right to keep and bear arms. I don't even know how you can suggest such a thing. What arms are they restricting you from keeping and bearing? NONE

You are talking about parts, not arms. They simply aren't selling accessories to arms you can have or can't have.

CTD is very pro gun. They even teach gun classes on site in Ft. Worth. You would best spend your time fighting for your rights in California than fighting a fellow pro gun organization who has had to back out of making sales to CA on some items out of fear of legal consequences. You will have to trust me on this, but CTD is a FOR PROFIT company and they would much rather be able to sell anything in their inventory to CA than to restrict sales on the advice of their lawyer, resulting in lost sales, lost profits, and more expenses by having to pay the lawyer.
 
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Lots of a**holes out there, CTD, Bloss, Century. They all obey laws that don't exist. Lots of other places to spend your money.
--------------------

This is too harsh a judgement on the businesses. Look at it from their point of view: California has lots of crazy laws, and they're passing new ones all the time. If I am a business owner, and I have to hire a huge staff of lawyers to figure out what's legal in California this week, and I run the risk of facing expensive legal action if I send something "banned" to California, then I stand to lose money every time I do business in California.

How much profit do you think they make on your AR foregrip? Not enough to compensate for even one legal tangle with the state of CA, or even enough to spend the time and effort trying to figure out if the darned thing is legal in CA this week.

The anti gun politicians in California know that this is happening, and it's part of their plan. They want to make it prohibitively expensive/difficult for gun/accessory dealers to do business in California, and it's working.

The vendors are not perpetrators of this wickedness; they're as much victims of it as CA residents are. Don't blame the victim, blame the perps - your own politicians. Have you been working to get these clowns unelected?
 
CTD sucks anyway--

One of their people (on THR as "mchgnmike") occasionally canvases THR for new hire employees.

I wrote him about a recent experience with CTD and never did hear back from him... I guess they're doing pretty well without responding to customer grievances--

My email:

Hello Mike-- I'm a High Road member and a frustrated (ex)CTD customer.

I had let this issue go with a vow to not do business with CTD in the future. But when I saw you were a fellow THR member I thought I'd give CTD one more chance.

I received an order from CTD a few weeks ago, mailed to me in Alaska. The numbers went something like this (these are estimates as I no longer have the invoice in front of me... but they are accurate within a dollar or two):
Merchandise: ~$80
S+H: ~$38

I'm realistic about the price of living in Alaska... I know it costs a little more to live here and I feel it's worth every extra penny. But $38 dollars seemed high for a package smaller than a shoe box and so light that I could bobble it around on one hand like a beach ball. The UPS store was a handy stop so I took it in and asked them to quote me a price to send that package from my address to yours via Priority Mail (that's how it was sent to me). They measured it, weighed it, ran it through their system, and said it would be (a little less than) $21. If you're doing the math, that leaves ~$17 for "handling". About 25% the cost of the merchandise! About this time I'm thinking, "anyone can advertise prices that are "cheaper than dirt" if they only have to sneak in the back door and boost the price by 25% at the last minute! That's pretty crumby, man.

I wanted to give CTD a chance to explain themselves (a great favor to them, actually, as most customers wouldn't.. they'd just quit patronizing and grumble to their friends). As friendly as I was to the "customer service" lady... she didn't take my call as a great favor. We went around and AROUND with me questioning the $17 and her responding that "it costs more to ship to Alaska". Well, I happen to KNOW what it costs to ship to Alaska... it's about $21. I'm talking about the remaining $17!

"Well sir, it costs more to ship to Alaska" And around and around we go.

At one point I thought she was really dumb to not understand what I was saying.. then it occurred to me that she wasn't dumb. She was just playing dumb because she didn't know what else to say.

The extra $17(in my case) is nothing more than a PUNITIVE CHARGE for living outside the contiguous states. I can't figure how it's any harder or more time consuming for CTD's shippers to write "AK" on a shipping label than it is to write "CO", "MI", or "VT". Just fill out the label and charge actual shipping... it's as easy as that! Tack on a NOMINAL "handling" fee if you must... but I must say, it's a little dishonest to do that. Be up front and work that into your catalog prices. It's sneaky, and a little dishonest, to advertise a price, then tack on a percentage as it goes out the door. In my business, I quote a price for a job and that's it. I don't go to my customer later and say, "By the way, here's my bill for my gas to and from the job, the time I spent servicing my tools after hours, etc". I'm aware of these costs and I work it into my UP FRONT price. My price may not be "cheaper than dirt", but it's honest. My customers respect that.

I hope I've made my case clear.. it seems simple to me but after it so befuddled the customer service lady, I wonder if I may not be explaining myself well.
Unless CTD changes their policy of gouging Alaskans, I can not do further business with them. My friends will be warned as well.

Thanks for your time, Mike.
Josh

Never did get at response:(
 
Double Naught Spy said:
CTD is NOT restricting your right to keep and bear arms. I don't even know how you can suggest such a thing. What arms are they restricting you from keeping and bearing? NONE

You would best spend your time fighting for your rights in California than fighting a fellow pro gun organization who has had to back out of making sales to CA on some items out of fear of legal consequences. You will have to trust me on this, but CTD is a FOR PROFIT company and they would much rather be able to sell anything in their inventory to CA than to restrict sales on the advice of their lawyer, resulting in lost sales, lost profits, and more expenses by having to pay the lawyer.

I never read your response until just now when I stubled upon it during a search.

I'm not saying that CTD is restricting my rights the same as the State of California, but everytime a seller of firearms/firearms related stuff chickens out, it goes a little bit towards being the same thing. Like when S&W briefly cut that deal with the Clinton administration.

There are some guys that stand up, whom I respect a lot, some that hold off a little while because of direct gov't action, whose actions I sympathize with, and then there are the people that go completely out of their way to avoid something despite it being obviously legal to anyone who can read, and there being no gov't pressure regarding it whatsoever. They don't even need to hire a lawyer to know that the items I refer to are legal--just ask the DOJ, and they will tell you, for free. That is what irks me--it is either cowardice or ignorance on the part of CTD. Or maybe just plain laziness.

Sure CTD is there to make a profit. Everyone is. But others stand up while doing it, and those are the ones who get my money now. And for your information, I do spend most of my time fighting for my rights in California, I just felt like posting this back in June when I discovered what CTD wouldn't sell some items to Californians.
 
CA laws and you still live there? No offense but I voted with my feet 20 years ago from MA. You stay by Your OWN CHOICE.

CA laws are so complex no wonder companies in the free world don't ship there the profit is not WORTH the loss that can occur when YOUR politicians complain to the AG. Blame your State not out of State companies.
 
I can't find any reason to blame companies that refuse to ship to lawsuit-happy anti-2A states like MA and CA. They're just covering their aft section in legal terms. It can destroy a business to get hit with a state lawsuit, so they're cutting their losses.

Solution, if you want to order from that company, you need to live in a place with more freedoms.
 
I don't live in San Francisco.

I can blame Cheaper Than Dirt, because they are going beyond the law to further restict the RKBA of Californians, and they should be on our side. Everyone else I've tried (I know enough to avoid Sportsman's Guide) will ship this stuff to California. And the assault weapon law is not complicated regarding these products. If they know what to list, then they have already read the part where it says these products are only illegal when attached to a centerfire, detachable-mag, auto-loader that isn't registered as an AW. This is not complicated!

Take a few business classes (I don't this as an insult). There is something called "opertunity cost." When multiple people show interest in a finite supply of items some people have to lose out on purchasing those items.

The goal of business is to make the choices that best maximize profit. This profit maximization level is (where marginal revenue is equal to marginal cost) where the company is producing at the output level (number of units) that would yield maximum profit. Any additional output would only result is profit loss. This means company's have to pick and choose where to send their finite number of output. Naturally, a company is going to choose to supply to market segments that best serves them. And for gun companies, this is means serving gun friendly locations first.
 
How many times have we been over the fact that "move to America or be brainwashed into a red pinko left wing gun grabber msm hollywierd tactikewl commie socialist fascist gang banger" is NOT productive?

It makes no sense to abandon the country's most populous state and a huge part of the national economy. California will set legislative and legal precedent on a national level if left to its devices. How about all you COWARDS stop cutting and running, and verbally sniping at us here fighting back?

And my post is as about as high road as the rest of you put together.
 
I used to empathize with the people that stayed in California and wanted some help fighting the bad laws there, but I read an article recently on decentralized government (states rights) in America. The point was that the Founders intended to let states and counties have most of the control so that people could "vote with their feet" if they encountered laws they didn't agree with. It's like the invisible hand for politics.

I guess it's almost moot at this point since we have such a centralized government, but I think it is productive to talk about moving out of states you don't like. It gets people thinking about making choices, controling their own destiny, and also moving toward a system where most of the decisions occur on the state and local level. We can always use a healthy reminder about those things.
 
How many times have we been over the fact that "move to America or be brainwashed into a red pinko left wing gun grabber msm hollywierd tactikewl commie socialist fascist gang banger" is NOT productive?

It makes no sense to abandon the country's most populous state and a huge part of the national economy. California will set legislative and legal precedent on a national level if left to its devices. How about all you COWARDS stop cutting and running, and verbally sniping at us here fighting back?

And my post is as about as high road as the rest of you put together.

Wow, want some cheese to go with that wine? Here in Florida we don’t have a White Castle hamburger establishmengt so I guess I should pound my fists and demand White Castle open establishments here to give us the little hamburgers we deserve. As I said before, when companies serve one market segment others have to do without. It is extremely niece to think a company can serve every market. So, the question is which segment to serve, one friendly to your product or one hostile to your product. As a business owner/manager would it be better to send products to markets that are (currently and most likely will remain) friendly to your product or would you rather serve a hostile market in which you product is barely legal by technicality and subject to change at any time? This isn’t rocket science its capitalism. It’s not a private companies responsibility to sacrifice profits by championing a cause, even it is a cause we all deeply believe in.
 
I can believe it. Too risky to try to keep up with the anti-gun law de jure in California.

Who would believe that it would be a crime to sell a holster for a .380 in Los Angeles? Well...

LAPD's Crack Down On
Legitimate City Gun Dealers
Nets Harmless Leathersmith

Law Enforcement Priorities Misplaced

In an outlandish enforcement action, Detectives from the LAPD Gun Unit, working with a new City Attorney Task Force, recently performed a plain clothes undercover "sting" on a leather smith Omar Pineda's family business: Alfonso's of Hollywood Leather Company. Pineda, in business in North Hollywood for 43 years, makes custom holsters and other leather goods. In fact, he has been servicing LAPD officers for many years. But he does not sell guns, nor possess a firearm dealer's license - which isn't necessary for his leather business. Pineda's "crime?" He unwittingly sold two leather holsters for .380 ACP handguns to the undercover officers, not realizing that the recently enacted Municipal Code section that bans the sale of "ultracompact" handguns (under either 6 3/4" long or 4 3/4" tall) also bans the sale of holsters for these guns.

And when was this dangerous leather smith "criminal" detected? On September 11th no less! As the country, under the heightened alert declared by the federal government, held its breath that we wouldn't suffer another terrorist attack the LAPD was spending federal dollars to arrest a holster maker!

The sting was part of a new misguided effort to crack down on gun dealers in the city. Using federal "Project Safe Neighborhoods" dollars, the L.A. city Attorney's Office has formed a gun prosecutor "task force," and, working with the LAPD "Gun Unit," is performing regulatory "inspectors" on the roughly 200 FFLS in the City of LA. Dealers fear the effort is a pretext to put them out of business.

The federal money, some $360,000.00 per year for five years, is supposed to be used to fund special prosecutor positions to crack down on violent gun crime. Instead, large and small retailers, ranges, collectors, and ammo sellers have been "inspected" and cited by LAPD, mostly for violating relatively new and obscure city ordinances - of which the dealers were never made aware! Even the anti-gun California Attorney General at least notifies FFLs to advise them as the increasingly complex firearms laws change, but not LA. Misdemeanor criminal charges are pending in several cases.

CRPA's 70,000 plus members include law enforcement officers, prosecutors, professionals, firearm experts, the general public, and loving parents. CRPA recognizes that firearm ownership has tremendous social value. It causes dramatic reductions in, and serves as a tremendous deterrent to, crime and violence. No less than 16 separate studies confirm that firearms are used five times more often to thwart crime than to commit one. The FBI has confirmed that over 99% of firearms in the United States are never misused. CRPA instructors have been teaching safe and responsible firearms ownership to those who choose to own a gun for sport or self-defense for over 125 years, CRPA has a variety of effective crime prevention and gun safety programs available. These include informational brochures such as CRPA's Know Your California Gun Laws, safety guidelines, civilian gun safety and firearm education classes; the award-winning Eddie Eagle GunSafeprogram, which teaches kids to stay away from guns (www.eaglepak.org); Project HomeSafe (www.projecthomesafe.org), which distributes free gun safety locks; "Don't Lie for the Other Guy," which enlists firearm dealers to fight illegal gun purchases and "straw purchases" (www.nafr.org); "Refuse To Be A Victim," which teaches a variety of personal safety techniques (www.nrahq.org/safety/rtbav); Operation Ceasefire, a strategic crime fighting alliance between police and gun dealers; and a host of other programs. These efforts have proven successful across the nation, including many cities in California where they are currently used.

###

Source: http://www.crpa.org/pressrls101802.html
 
I don't want cheese or wine. I want some support from people who are supposed to be on my side.

This is how we lose, we destroy ourselves with in-fighting. There will be no cohesive front if we continue like this. "My state is better than your state", red state vs blue state, "snipers" (high power shooters) vs "those machine gun nuts" vs "50 cal terrorists" vs "no honest man should have a magazine over 10 rounds" vs "snotty shotgunners" vs hunters vs olympic shooters vs handgunners ends up with pointy sticks outlawed.

Frankly, this thread has made me incredibly disgusted with the lack of support. We do a far better job of tearing each other apart than the Brady center or VPC ever will. You want to convert an anti, well here's a state full of them. Get to work. I wasn't planning on buying from CTD, but I don't appreciate the "move, your state is suffocating under immigrant scum/gun grabbers/liberals/insert group of choice" sentiment I see on almost every single post. Guns aren't as important as my family, or my education. I'm not moving. Send lawyers, guns, and money, or even nothing. Don't you dare tell me to give up on my home.
 
Your statement shows where your priorities lie. Get used to not having firearms and accesories mail ordered to you. You made the choice.
 
As a fellow Californian facing these issues, I have to say:

I do want some cheese, if he's passing on it- thanks.

(Hey, just lightening up the mood- as a Californian, I'm allowed.)
 
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