cheaper way to shoot my .50 cal

[cowmeateater]

Been thinking about taking my Hawkens .50 cal out but when i looked at sabots they were over a dollar a piece. Srry im fairly new to bp and dont know the terms , is a sabot the plastic jacket thing or the bullet? Anyway i bought some that are a combination, there is a plastic ring on the bottom that is supposed to work and the guy in the store said they were his most popular. Anyway seems as if i read about people using just normal bullets in their muzzleoaders which seems a lot cheaper if its possible. Was hoping someone could explain or provide a link. Much thanks

 

[scrat]

the cheapest way is to cast your own. Same time sabots are made for inlines not sayint that they can not work for a hawkens.
Just a hawkens work better with ball and patch. or one of the best ways is to use your own cast bullets.
take the lee real bullet. its design is great in that it will work for both inlines and traditional.
Now all you have to do is lube the bullet this is where good old bore buter comes in place.
going with a .490 round ball with a .10 or .15 cloth is probably the best bet at around 8-12 for 100 round balls. even cheaper if you cast your own.


http://leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1243990971.3517=/html/catalog/blackpow.html

 

[arcticap]

Here's the link to MMP sabots, the largest and most popular sabot maker.
It usually better to shoot medium weight bullets in the sabots when shooting a barrel with a 1 in 48" twist. Medium size .50 caliber bullets are usually around 240 grains, but some guns will shoot heavier saboted bullets pretty good too. The only way to find out is by experimenting with different bullets and powder charges out of a clean barrel.
MMP makes some sabots that are easier to load so read the descriptions.
Then you can buy which ever kind of bulk bullets that you'd like in the right diameter to fit inside of the sabots.

http://www.mmpsabots.com/

 

[moooose102]

i buy sabots separate and use cast 45 acp bullets in them. i have been using dardas bullets, but i am going to start casting my own soon. i will still use sabots, they are pretty inexpensive, and it is what i will hunt with, only with different bullets ( tc shockwaves). you can also buy sabots that shoot 44 caliber bullets. if you have one of the two pistols, and have bullets laying around, that is the way to go. straight cast bullets are fine, but they are heavier than i want to shoot.

 

[mothernatureson]

sabots

why would you shoot sabots out of a hawken rifle? Use a cloth patch and round ball, thats what they were meant to shoot. Even in the store a hundred balls would cost you less than ten dollars, and you can use some of the Mrs. sheets, underwear or hankies(cotton or linen). find some info about your rifle, what brand is it? contact the manufacturer for a shooters manual etc. Lots of books published , and sites such as this are a good start. As someone else stated, casting your own will allow much cheaper and more shooting. have fun and be safe

mothernatureson

 

[mykeal]

sa·bot n.
1. A wooden shoe worn in some European countries.
2. A sandal or shoe having a band of leather or other material across the instep.
3. A lightweight carrier in which a projectile of a smaller caliber is centered so as to permit firing the projectile within a larger-caliber weapon. The carrier fills the bore of the weapon from which the projectile is fired; it is normally discarded a short distance from the muzzle.

Your Hawken has a rifling twist rate of 1 complete turn in 48 inches, expressed as 1:48. This is a moderate rate of twist, capable of getting good performance from a wide range of projectiles. You have the choice of patched round balls, lubricated conical bullets or smaller caliber bullets carried in plastic carriers called sabots. With such a wide range of choices it's often difficult to know what to choose. The only real practical way is to experiment with different designs to see what works best in your gun.

If cost is a major concern, learning to cast your own round balls will give you the most 'bang' for your money. You can also purchase ready made round balls for less than most, if not all, sabot rounds and conicals. I suggest 0.490 balls with 0.010 or 0.015 thick lubed patches to start.

 

[arcticap]

Anyway i bought some that are a combination, there is a plastic ring on the bottom that is supposed to work and the guy in the store said they were his most popular.

Those sound like "Powerbelts" which are a bullet with a plastic skirt attached for easier loading.

Do they look like the bullets on the following page?

http://www.powerbeltbullets.com/

Powerbelts are not like regular saboted bullets, but are described as:

Far from advanced, the Powerbelt is merely a pure lead conical. It is old wine in a new bottle, doing very little that the Minie balls of the Civil War did not do. The lighter versions do less.

Pure lead can be scratched with your fingernail; drop a Powerbelt and it easily dents. Powerbelts, like all lead conicals, shorten and belly out upon firing. Powerbelts shoot exactly the same whether the green hula hoop skirt is attached or detached.

They are simply slip fit conicals. Their sole benefit being that they need no messy lubrication of Crisco or other bullet lube, as the copper plating takes care of that. Unfortunately the better selling, lighter Powerbelts (245 and 295 grain) are the worst performers on game. The 348, 405, and 444 grain bullets are far more effective.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/powerbelt_bullets.htm

The lighter ones are said to perform well enough on game if 80 grains or less of powder is loaded behind them. If they are driven too fast then they lose some effectiveness and won't penetrate as well.

 

[cowmeateater]

Yep those are the bullets, 215 gr are pretty heavy, its gonna kick like a mule. I also thought about round balls but i want to hunt with this gun too.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

a .50 with patched round ball over around 70-80 grs 3F is plenty for deer out to 100 yds with good placement.

 

[MCgunner]

In my experience, a sabot needs a 1:32 or less twist to stabilize it. My Hawken Hunter Carbine has a 1:24 twist and is really accurate with sabots, though I shoot mostly heavy Minies in it, a 360 grain Lee cast minie or a Hornady great plains 385 grain Minie ball. The gun with that fast a twist doesn't do well at all with lighter conicals or patch round ball. I bought a 250 grain Lee REAL mold, wasn't worth a toot in that gun. It would probably work pretty well in a 1:48 twist, though.

Anyway, with a 1:48, forget the sabots. I don't think you'll be able to hit paper at 100 yards with 'em. For range fun, patched round ball doesn't require the constant bore scrubbing between shots that conicals do. I'd just pick up some patching and round ball of appropriate under bore size. That'll give you cheap shooting. If you wanna hunt with it, round ball CAN hunt, but I would prefer a light conical, myself, if you can find one that stabilizes for you.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well your .490 round ball from a .50 caliber is roughly 180 grains, and if you used about 70 grains of 3Fg you'd probably get about 1500 fps muzzle velocity. That's about what a .357 magnum will give you from a lever action rifle. So why couldn't you use it for hunting?

I use my .54 with a 225 gr .530 ball and 70 grains of powder, shoot at 50 yards or less with iron sights, and no worries, the whitetails fall down quick.

I have tried conical bullets, Maxi-Balls, Maxi-Hunters, Buffalo Bullets. They work fine, but I like to be able to raise my right arm when I'm done shooting at the range

Maybe you're going for larger game than I am though.

LD

 

[arcticap]

Some 1 in 48" barrels just won't shoot patched round balls accurately with the heavy powder charges most often needed for deer hunting.
Round ball trajectory can be inconsistent beyond 60-65 yards with some barrels on a good day. A slow twist barrel is usually more consistent shooting high velocity PRB's, especially with a cold barrel. So why not try to get better accuracy and increased 1st shot performance with concials whether they're modern style or pure lead?
Conicals help allow rifles with shorter/medium length barrels to more closely equal the performance of the much longer "traditional long rifles" without needing to carry such a heavy and long rifle through the woods. Conicals can be an equalizing factor for many of the medium twist guns which often do not master any particular style of projectile.

 

[Zeke/PA]

Actually, Thompson recommends that you do NOT shoot Sabots out of the Hawkin style rifles.
I shoot home cast patched round balls in my T/C Hawkin for plinking and a Maxi- Ball for hunting.

 

[arcticap]

Actually, Thompson recommends that you do NOT shoot Sabots out of the Hawkin style rifles.

Actually, the above appears to be an inaccurate and misleading statement.
As a matter of fact, TC expressly endorses the use of factory saboted bullets in their sidelock rifles as stated on page 25 of the TC sidelock manual which is quoted below [bold emphasis added].
What the TC manual warns against is using a plastic patch or sabot together with a round ball because they could separate.

Warning
Do not use any type of plastic patch or sabot with a ROUND BALL in any Thompson/Center firearm. When such patches or sabots are used, it is possible, even under optimum tolerance conditions, for the ball and patch or sabot to disengage themselves from each other. This results in the ball moving forward (leaving air space between the patch or sabot andthe ball). UNDER SUCH CONDITIONS, THE BALL WILL ACT AS A BARREL OBSTRUCTION AND FIRING CAN RESULT IN INJURY AND/OR DEATH TO THE SHOOTER OR BYSTANDERS AND DAMAGE TO PROPERTY.

Warning
Various manufacturers have introduced plastic sabots which are used with pistol bullets in muzzleloading firearms. Thompson/Center Arms and others have tested these sabots. Satisfactory results have been obtained when following the instructions as provided by the manufacturer of the sabots. It is important to note that only those bullets recommended by the manufacturer of the sabot should be used. Sabots must not be used with round balls.

For specific loading information on Thompson/Center's Sabots see the Loading Section in this manual.

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/Shooting_TC_Side_Lock_Black_Powder_Guns.pdf

TC then goes on to list a variety of their own brand of sabots on Page 70 of their sidelock manual.
And on Pages 80 -87, the TC manual decribes the proper assembly, loading procedure and powder charges to use with the various TC brand of saboted bullets in their sidelock rifles.

 

[aprayinbear]

Patched round ball is the way to go



Depending on which Hawkin you have, there's a good chance it will shoot most accurately with a patched round ball. And Accuracy is what's most important when hunting. I can promise you that 80+% of large animals ever taken with a Hawkin during their heyday, were done so with a simple ball and patch.

Make them yourself, or buy them on sale, but a box of 100 .50s will run you between $8 and $15. That's a lot of bang for your buck! Besides it's a Hawkin style, not some modern inline designed to shoot conicals or sabots.

Enjoy the smoke, enjoy the thunder, enjoy the history. Round balls are the way to go!

Happy Shooting!

 

[Jimfern]

sabots

I've had good luck with separately purchased sabots and 44 and 45 caliber bullets (with the appropriate sized sabot) and cast and jacketed bullets. I have a T/C Hawken flint lock. I use GOEX blackpowder.

I recently bought a T/C caplock too, but haven't had a chance to try it out yet.

 

[Paraplegic Racehorse]

why would you shoot sabots out of a hawken rifle? Use a cloth patch and round ball, thats what they were meant to shoot.

An historical footnote:
The Hawken Rifle was introduced right around 1823. A proper Hawken is one which was produced by Samuel Hawken in his shop in St. Louis. However, this general class of large-bore, short barrel rifle was popular on the plains because it could handle the larger more dangerous animals than were common fare in the south-east. The general class is what we now refer to as a 'Hawken style' rife, not necessarily the Hawken Rifle. They came in a variety of calibers from .50 to .72. Most were rifled in 1:47 through 1:66, growing faster as the conical bullet gained in popularity. Also, like their predecessors - the .32-.45 Kentucky and Pennsylvania style rifles - many had magnifying scopes, particularly the percussion models.

The round ball + fabric patch had largely been eclipsed by the increased penetrating power and greater accuracy of the conical bullet by 1840. Most Hawken style guns will shoot roundball or conical bullets with equal aplomb, though the tightness of the rifling favors conicals for range and accuracy.


cowmeateater:
I highly recommend getting your own swaging equipment. Swaged balls and bullets are harder, heavier and more consistent than cast. (Google 'bullet swage' for history, how-tos and equipment.) This is by far the most economical way to shoot your rifle, even if the initial capital cost is higher. The same theory as your rifle cost holds sway: pay more now to save later.

Failing that, I'd look towards the Hornady 'Great Plains' (385gr sized for .50), the Thompson/Center 'Maxi-Ball' (370gr in .50) or 'Maxi-Hunter' (275gr sized for .50) or the Parker 'Traditional Hunter' or 'Hydra-Con' bullets (both 440gr in .50). All of these bullets are about $1.00 per shot + powder. The Hornady and T/C bullets are pre-lubed while the Parker bullets will need to be lubed. You can use pretty much any non-petroleum lube of your choosing but wax-based lubes have been favored due to easy cleaning and lower risk of contaminating your loaded powder charge.

 

[Shultzhaus]

Trivia time - Sabots were worn in France. When the industrial revolution began in Europe, people were being put out of work by these machines. Disgruntled workers would throw their wooden shoes into the machines to wreck the works. This is the origin of our word "Sabotage"

 

[kanook]

one of the reasons why I cast my own is I got tired of my local store not carrying my ball size in stock. now that I cast my own and can't find lead, I can melt down some of the extra's that I made for a different gun.

 

[Zeke/PA]

I must agree, the cheapest way to go, is shooting a patched round ball.
With some expiremation with load/ patch thickness, the rifle has real accuracy potential.
Home cast verses commercial swaged stuff?
It's even MORE fun when you cast your own.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

Cast yer own to cut down on the overhead for shootin' so you can save money to buy more BP Guns ... Hey normal boolits are round balls them sabotage' have ya puttin' plastic where a flame will melt it and blow it all down yer barrel... what the 'ell kind a boolit is that? Plastic&explosive equal C4 ...HeeHeeHee!