Check out this Colt.

[Crawdad1]

While searching for the long history of the Colt's revolver, dating way back to the 1840s and then some and way way way before 1858, got to rub it in on the Remmy guys and its impact on the Ole West, again a long long time before 1858 came around, check out this 3rd Model Dragoon.

http://www.nwponyexpress.com/firearms/colt-3/colt---3rd-model-dragoon/

 

[kBob]

What point are you trying to make?

Looks like a 3rd model Dragoon so from 1854 or so. They normally had a three leaf rear sight and this one appears to have a single rear sight or the leafs are broken off.

Not sure what this has to do with an "1858".

I might be concerned over buying that gun as it says it was recovered from an "Indian Mound" and one tribe or another might try to have it seized as stolen grave goods.

Thanks for the neat link.

-kBob

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

I think the fact that it's plunder stolen by grave robbers kind of taints its class & character though.

 

[Tommygunn]

Look how the barrel is "continued" over the plunger area; it looks as if the cylindrical barrel was "sitting" on top of the arbor area rather than being an integral part of it, though I believe it still actually is.
Is this anything anyone here has seen before? I haven't. Doesn't look like any 3rd Dragoon I've seen.
Can someone enlighten me?
-Or- is this a "hallmark" of a fake?
"Inquiring minds want to know."

 

[Fingers McGee]

Barrel is all wrong to be an original.

 

[tpelle]

I noticed that with the barrel as well. Weren't all the dragoons made with hex barrels?

 

[Crawdad1]

That's what I figured, the barrel looks all wrong. Looks like it was from another revolver and somehow fitted.

 

[Fingers McGee]

I noticed that with the barrel as well. Weren't all the dragoons made with hex barrels?

Dragoons had round 8" barrels. But there was no parting line between the barrel and barrel lug. Here's an authentic 1858 vintage 3rd model dragoon w/shoulder stock

 

[Willie Sutton]

So, Fingers: What do you figure it to be?


Willie

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[Snaggletooth]

Barrel looks to long. The barrel might be from a Walker To my distorted vision the barrel is long.

 

[Jim K]

Buried in an Indian burial mound or buried in BS?

Jim

 

[Jim Watson]

It would be an awfully ignorant fake of a configuration not made by Colt.
I wonder if it is a replacement barrel kind of "monobloc" installed on the original bottom lump. It would be nice to be able to examine it for signs of fabrication like screws, solder, or braze holding the tube to the lug.

 

[TheRodDoc]

Looks to me like someone has used a piece of a rifle barrel to either replace a damaged original or just to have a longer one. (said 11" ) Could very well been done in the 1800's or later. You can see where something has been filled a little in front of the ram latch. Like a dovetail which might have been to fasten the rifle stock to it. The fill material is coming loose so I would guess it was done long ago. Barrel also looks to be tapered as a rifle barrel might have been.

 

[Fingers McGee]

I'll agree with RodDoc. It probably started life as a Dragoon; but somewhere along the line it got lost/damaged/destroyed and got gunsmithed back to life with a cobbled together barrel assembly. Since the claim is that it was found wrapped up in a burial mound; some local indigenous people got hold of it after the 'repairs' were made ....... or made the repairs themselves. It's also possible that it got gunsmithed south of the Rio Grande or during the late unpleasantness.

How ever it got that way; it is not an original - in it's entirety - made by Colt's - 3rd Model Dragoon.

 

[ivankerley]

too long for a walker barrel
Gene

 

[Willie Sutton]

"Buried in an Indian burial mound or buried in BS?"

Be interesting to see the old newspaper article for provinence.

In any event, it seems like an interesting piece, albeit one not "As it left Colt". Interesting example of frontier smithin' perhaps.


I wanted to hear what Pard Fingers thought, but I agree with him. And if someone were to try to counterfeit something, they wouldn't likely go outta their way to make it "wrong".

Willie

.

 

[DaveP (UK)]

Shooter?
Looks as though there can't be much more than a soldered joint holding that barrel on. Wouldn't fancy it myself!
I do like the rear sight on the original. Would I be correct in thinking that this is to be used with the shoulder stock? Is there a hammer groove for one handed use?
I notice that repro guns don't seem to have this sight, but they all seem to be cut for shoulder stock attachment. So much for historical accuracy...

 

[desidog]

Yeah, that barrel would launch forward on the first shot.

It looks like a prop- or toy gun made from some original parts and some non-original parts. The barrel appears to have a faint knurling at the muzzle for 1/16" or so.

Looks like something a smart kid might cobble together after finding a gun with a blown barrel...

 

[Willie Sutton]

"Looks as though there can't be much more than a soldered joint holding that barrel on"


If it were silver brazed, which is likely, it would be perfectly safe.

That sort of repair would not be at all outside the skill level of any decent frontier gunsmith.

It's an interesting piece, I'd like to handle it to see what it really is.


Willie

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[DaveP (UK)]

Apologies for my laziness, I should have specified "silver solder" which is, or has been, the everyday term for silver brazing here in the UK.
I've never been much good at it, so stressed joints that rely only on the braze to stay together worry me a bit. If I was a better workman...
Its just a personal thing. It would never have occurred to me that a simple brazed joint with no mechanical support would bear up under the shock of firing. The guy who did it obviously knew better - this gun has almost certainly been fired as it is, so I guess I was wondering if he "got away with it" or if it is truly an appropriate repair.

I'm happy to read your opinion. I like a good repair

 

[TheRodDoc]

I would think that barrel is furnace brazed to the lug the same as most all early shotguns had the barrel lug welded on. (brass brazing)

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^

Ditto double rifle ribs, etc.

It's a very strong method of joining metal, assuming a good mechanical fit to begin with.



"I've never been much good at it, so stressed joints that rely only on the braze to stay together worry me a bit. If I was a better workman..."

We used to use silver solder (the common term here as well, with 'silver brazing' being a technically more accurate term) to solder high pressure gas fittings to stainless steel tubing. By high pressure I mean 4500 PSI working pressure, proof tested to 6000 PSI. It's darned strong stuff. The technique is a good metal to metal fit, lots of flux, and correct heat. The braze material flows in by capillary action when the solder is applied. It's actually quite easy to do. Enough heat and good flux are key elements.




Willie

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