TenMillimaster
Member
oops. Double tap.
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Chiappa adding RFID chips to their guns
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ConstitutionCowboy
member
hso said:
Yeah it does! It means there's a gun on a hip somewhere close! While the "reader" may not be able to cite make and model, it knows you've got something!
Yet.
...for now...
We bought a new washer and drier combo about a year ago. I walked past them with an AM radio tuned to 1000 shortly thereafter and couldn't believe the loud and perfectly clear signal emanating from each machine. WHY?
We've got 2, 1999 Suburbans. One is a Chevy and the other a GMC, both relatively low miles and we'll keep them 'till we die. Everything newer has that "OnStar" installed that can be used to shut you down from space whether you subscribe or not. Don't be surprised when you find out some of your guns won't work when you drive through some high-powered EMP and a fusible link melts...
Ignore this crap at your own risk.
Woody
USAF_Vet
Member
Yes, but it doesn't know you've got a gun. 'Something' covers quite a bit of real estate.
Of the somethings I have, it could be my boots or my belt buckle. The alpha numeric code recieved by the RFID scanners means nothing without the database. As has been pointed out, millions of products carry RFID tags. Finding out which of those million products is your gun is like finding a specific needle in a stack of needles.
Based on what you heard from your appliances, were you able to figure out what they were, who they belonged to, what model they were? Or was it just very clear white noise?
What, like a bait car?
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Dnaltrop
Member
M-Cam.. their "public" press release is an Italian language one, IN Italy.
The only reason we know about this is because of a savvy gun-blogger running their news through Google translation.
More folks need to attend The Black Hat conference, or at least watch it remotely on the web. It might open their eyes to how many people devote their lives just to testing these exploits, even if they have no intention of using them to some sinister end.
http://www.securitynewsdaily.com/flying-drone-steals-wi-fi-passwords-hacks-cellphones-1007/
Mike Tassey and Richard Perkins are the proud creators of the Wireless Aerial Surveillance Platform (WASP), a drone specially rigged with hacking tools capable of capturing home wireless network passwords.
Tassey and Perkins built in a feature that impersonates the GSM cell phone towers used by AT&T and T-Mobile. When the WASP flies close enough to a person's cellphone, the phone connects to the antenna on the WASP instead of the phone's legitimate cell tower.
As a result, the WASP, if used in this devious way, could record a person's conversations and text messages, and, as Tassey said, "the target won't even know he's being spied on."
(mods, cut this down if it's too much of the included article)
Edit... the Forbes version of the story as well
http://blogs.forbes.com/andygreenbe...can-crack-wifi-networks-snoop-on-cell-phones/
~~
All done without violating FCC standards.
The only reason we know about this is because of a savvy gun-blogger running their news through Google translation.
More folks need to attend The Black Hat conference, or at least watch it remotely on the web. It might open their eyes to how many people devote their lives just to testing these exploits, even if they have no intention of using them to some sinister end.
http://www.securitynewsdaily.com/flying-drone-steals-wi-fi-passwords-hacks-cellphones-1007/
Mike Tassey and Richard Perkins are the proud creators of the Wireless Aerial Surveillance Platform (WASP), a drone specially rigged with hacking tools capable of capturing home wireless network passwords.
Tassey and Perkins built in a feature that impersonates the GSM cell phone towers used by AT&T and T-Mobile. When the WASP flies close enough to a person's cellphone, the phone connects to the antenna on the WASP instead of the phone's legitimate cell tower.
As a result, the WASP, if used in this devious way, could record a person's conversations and text messages, and, as Tassey said, "the target won't even know he's being spied on."
(mods, cut this down if it's too much of the included article)
Edit... the Forbes version of the story as well
http://blogs.forbes.com/andygreenbe...can-crack-wifi-networks-snoop-on-cell-phones/
~~
All done without violating FCC standards.
because they are electrical devices........everything that has a current flowing through it, especially electronics with large heating elements...... emits some form of electromagnetic radiation.....which is what you were picking up in the radio.
its not from the RFID tags
ive done the same thing with the electrical wiring in my house.......and last i checked....my house isnt bugged.
so now weve jumped from "trackable RFID tags"......to "computer chips that render your gun useless".......?
yes, i suppose its technically possible one day.......so is skynet......but im not building my bomb shelter just yet.....
so they havent yet released an english press release....for something thats over a year away........so they must be up to something devious....?
man, they sure dropped the stack in hoping no english speakers know italian......
rscalzo
Member
So now they know what I'm having for dinner....Diabolical !!!!!
Dnaltrop
Member
You're the one who said they announced it...
I just pointed out that they released the statement to a minute fraction of their market.
I just pointed out that they released the statement to a minute fraction of their market.
I work with RFID chips on a daily basis. My company is big into lean manufacturing, ie. eliminating wasted movement, unnecessary steps, etc. I'm in the shipping department of my company, and we use them for inventory management. We produce networking components like servers, rack systems, and IT products. We mount our RFID chips to the actual product itself. Why, you ask? Because if the RFID chip is mounted in or on our product, that means our product is there, in that packaging. If the RFIDs were mounted attached to the packing materials, that means we could ship out empty cartons and containers that supposedly have product inside it. Or someone could be stealing product, and according to the box, it's still in there.
With that said, as far as I know, there is no way of disabling any of our products via the RFIDs mounted inside of them. We produce electronic equipment, most of which is ESD sensitive. If we can't zap our products into not working via the RFIDs inside them, I don't think it's physically possible to disable a gun from firing with one. Just a thought.
With that said, as far as I know, there is no way of disabling any of our products via the RFIDs mounted inside of them. We produce electronic equipment, most of which is ESD sensitive. If we can't zap our products into not working via the RFIDs inside them, I don't think it's physically possible to disable a gun from firing with one. Just a thought.
they did announce it.........it was made public.........they are an Italian company......so it only makes sense that their initial press release is to be in Italian.....
so your theory is that they only wanted the italian people to be in on their devious plot......and if not for the brave efforts of on blogger.....we would all be blind to govt control, and our houses open to heroine addicts?
perhaps you should get on every gun manufacturer because they are plotting against the blind for not releasing their press releases in braille....?
usually translations in other languages come a bit after their initial release.
USAF_Vet
Member
You really expect Chiappa to release a worldwide press release in dozens of languages over the news that they will be using RFID tags to track inventory in the manufacturing facilities? I mean, this isn't shocking news, nor is it some diabolical scheme to make guns easier for the global government to confiscate. Because of course there will be global government, and Chippa will have a seat at the head table, right?
Don't like RFID tags in your gun, don't buy it. Or take it off. This is not some massive conspiracy plot to end civilian gun ownership worldwide by some shadow government.
Don't like RFID tags in your gun, don't buy it. Or take it off. This is not some massive conspiracy plot to end civilian gun ownership worldwide by some shadow government.
Dnaltrop
Member
Humor aside Rscalzo... I'm glad that you are comfortable with the thought of having someone not a party to your conversation listening to you.
I don't care if all they hear is my giving my wife a list of groceries, Third parties have no business listening to my phone conversations, or ( given the topic) scanning me, my car, or my home for RFID signals.
Those who would give up liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both.... where have we heard that before....
I don't care if all they hear is my giving my wife a list of groceries, Third parties have no business listening to my phone conversations, or ( given the topic) scanning me, my car, or my home for RFID signals.
Those who would give up liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both.... where have we heard that before....
Dnaltrop
Member
Let us go back to our dear friend Douglas Adams and the world of Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy...
(for those who have not read this series, Mr Arthur Dent is laying in front of a bulldozer, arguing with the foreman, having just discovered his house is to be demolished for a Bypass)
"But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."
"Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."
"But the plans were on display ..."
"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."
"That's the display department."
"With a flashlight."
"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."
"So had the stairs."
"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"
"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."
Edit... M-Cam... Since you say they're just late to announce this in the US
http://www.chiappafirearms.com/news-events let us know when their press release pops up
(for those who have not read this series, Mr Arthur Dent is laying in front of a bulldozer, arguing with the foreman, having just discovered his house is to be demolished for a Bypass)
"But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."
"Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."
"But the plans were on display ..."
"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."
"That's the display department."
"With a flashlight."
"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."
"So had the stairs."
"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"
"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."
Edit... M-Cam... Since you say they're just late to announce this in the US
http://www.chiappafirearms.com/news-events let us know when their press release pops up
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ConstitutionCowboy
member
USAF Vet said:
Oh, It won't take long for the data bases to become available if they are not already available.
USAF Vet said:
It ain't me knowing what the signals mean that worries me. It's those who do know what the signals mean that worries me.
USAF Vet said:
No, like ANY OnStar vehicle.
Dnaltrop said:
I'm concerned about those waiting for the development to mature so they can use them toward some sinister end.
Woody
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Dnaltrop
Member
http://www.tiropratico.com/Cinzia_Pinzoni/RFID_chiappa.pdf
The original PDF , no date stamp on it. Lets see how long until an English version pops out.
http://www.tiropratico.com the front page of this announcement. such large text.
The original PDF , no date stamp on it. Lets see how long until an English version pops out.
http://www.tiropratico.com the front page of this announcement. such large text.
so let me see if i get this straight......
you were able to pick up and unknown radio signal from your washing machine using an AM radio......so now you are worried that some Govt agency, or some advanced heroine addicted hacker will be able to detect the signature from the passive RFID tags, placed in your gun with means to deceit by the manufacturer who only felt the need to inform the Italian people.....with technology that will someday in the future be readily available....?
ive literally talked to Schizophrenics that are less paranoid.
Nushif
Member
I really don't see how that quote works here ... RFID tags don't make the world more secure? Who's been saying that? In this thread?
All people are saying is that it's not a shadow conspiracy.
Dnaltrop
Member
The ease of a surreptitious electronic inventory of ones possessions Nushif.
As this advances and becomes cheaply and widely available, the loss of your right to privacy at a distance. It's not big brother, it's Little bastard you have to fear.
Edit- from the original blog. and think of how many layers of cement and metal are here...
"Last year a hacker at DEFCON was able to detect if an individual standing on the ground floor parking lot of the Las Vegas Riviera Hotel was carrying a certain brand of RFID chip from as far away as the 29th floor of the hotel."
Further Edit- As stated in the Supreme Court Kyllo vs US dissent, It's possible that as RFID readers filter their way into every home... such searches COULD become permissible.
(lets say from shopping carts that detect and tally your groceries as you shop, saving you the effort of an extended checkout)
Stevens' Kyllo dissent. http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/pdf/99-8508P.ZD
As this advances and becomes cheaply and widely available, the loss of your right to privacy at a distance. It's not big brother, it's Little bastard you have to fear.
Edit- from the original blog. and think of how many layers of cement and metal are here...
"Last year a hacker at DEFCON was able to detect if an individual standing on the ground floor parking lot of the Las Vegas Riviera Hotel was carrying a certain brand of RFID chip from as far away as the 29th floor of the hotel."
Further Edit- As stated in the Supreme Court Kyllo vs US dissent, It's possible that as RFID readers filter their way into every home... such searches COULD become permissible.
(lets say from shopping carts that detect and tally your groceries as you shop, saving you the effort of an extended checkout)
Stevens' Kyllo dissent. http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/pdf/99-8508P.ZD
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Nushif
Member
Most of the lowlife types I have dealt with, which there hasn't been many of, don't even know how to work a computer.
Believe me. I am all for privacy, especially electronic privacy, (one of my pet peeves) but an RFID chip, especially a passive one in any given device requires a lot of hardware. And a lot of software both on the bad guys part and the actual software end.
What we sometimes fail to do here is categorize crime. We think all criminals will use all means to achieve all criminality. I guess that comes from us wanting to simplify their behavior in case we ever do have to do what we have to do.
But let's don our criminal hats for a second.
I am a highly qualified hacker. the kind with the access to this sort of hardware required to read RFID chips remotely. I have tons of great gadgets. Potentially I can rip off banks, big businesses, etc.
Why on earth am I going through my neighbor's trash, for a quick meth fix? Where is this coming from?
I could steal all the social security numbers in the world ... or ten million dollars. I'd go for the money. Sorry. Let's face it. The kinds of people who do this, in any kind of foreseeable future are not the one's who are interested in your guns. They're not even interested in you! They have bigger fish to fry!
When dealing with high tech criminals you do have to be aware that they're not the same ones as the guys picking fights in bars, gangbangers, or meth heads who are rifling through your trash. If you wanna defend against them, I'd recommend you learn to program instead of shooting. Or go off the grid. In a heavily wooded area.
Not all criminals are the same, and it would be a grave error to slap these hacking types into the same behavior pattern as some gangbanger, meth head or financial whiz.
Variety, folks. Differences. It's for more than just ballistics.
Believe me. I am all for privacy, especially electronic privacy, (one of my pet peeves) but an RFID chip, especially a passive one in any given device requires a lot of hardware. And a lot of software both on the bad guys part and the actual software end.
What we sometimes fail to do here is categorize crime. We think all criminals will use all means to achieve all criminality. I guess that comes from us wanting to simplify their behavior in case we ever do have to do what we have to do.
But let's don our criminal hats for a second.
I am a highly qualified hacker. the kind with the access to this sort of hardware required to read RFID chips remotely. I have tons of great gadgets. Potentially I can rip off banks, big businesses, etc.
Why on earth am I going through my neighbor's trash, for a quick meth fix? Where is this coming from?
I could steal all the social security numbers in the world ... or ten million dollars. I'd go for the money. Sorry. Let's face it. The kinds of people who do this, in any kind of foreseeable future are not the one's who are interested in your guns. They're not even interested in you! They have bigger fish to fry!
When dealing with high tech criminals you do have to be aware that they're not the same ones as the guys picking fights in bars, gangbangers, or meth heads who are rifling through your trash. If you wanna defend against them, I'd recommend you learn to program instead of shooting. Or go off the grid. In a heavily wooded area.
Not all criminals are the same, and it would be a grave error to slap these hacking types into the same behavior pattern as some gangbanger, meth head or financial whiz.
Variety, folks. Differences. It's for more than just ballistics.
ConstitutionCowboy
member
M-Cameron said:
I'm not talking static or hash, here. I'm talking clear and precise purposefully generated radio signals.
M-Cameron said:
And what makes you think a bomb shelter will be of any use?
seanie! said:
If an RFID chip can set off an alarm at an exit, surely it can trigger a fusible link - especially one that contains its own fuel.
USAF Vet said:
Yet.
M-Cameron said:
Wow, that didn't take long!
Nushif said:
I'm not.
Nushif said:
It just takes one.
Woody
Nushif
Member
That line of reasoning is a very, very slippery slope. Next we're gonna be actively keeping our eyes out for pie throwing monkeys, because one pie throwing monkey sitting next to a freeway could possibly cause a pile-up.
There has to be a reasonability element to preparation. And some hacker who has the hardware to make tons of money off unarmed institutions isn't going to be robbing me of my proverbial Glock and trying to steal my washer.
TenMillimaster said:
And that is part of the reason it is a problem.
Chiappa is not involved in some big conspiracy to track you, they are doing something out of convenience.
But that must be stopped, because there is a clear progression in such things.
Manufacturers didn't originally add serial numbers to help government track guns or make it easy to register your guns either. Now it is against the law to even remove them.
The intent in adding such things does not have to be bad for it to have bad consequences.
The danger is allowing other gun manufacturers to adopt similar measures for convenience and then once they are already being used by one or more big firearm manufacturers a law being put in place requiring them and making it illegal to remove or damage them.
At which point the info required on those RFID tags will be standardized, for example per ATF specifications, which means anyone will have the means to scan for RFID tags using that format. It will become easy to scan for firearm RFID tags, and law abiding citizens will not have removed, tampered, disabled, or otherwise broken the law to interfere with them.
Such progression does not happen immediately, it is a process.
At that point any corporation, employer, retail chain, etc can use RFID readers throughout buildings to determine and track who has firearms.
In essence reducing everyone's concealed carry to open carry.
It does not even have to be the primary purpose of such RFID readers in many places, just a convenient secondary use that uses the readers already put in place to track merchandise and similar things, requiring nothing but the software to also look for the firearm format.
A chain that does not like firearms can call the police or have security ask you to leave when you enter with an RFID firearm tag. Concealed won't mean unknown.
Those that work in places they currently carry concealed may lose that ability as well, when most employers with inexpensive technology can determine who is carrying in violation of company policies.
Not only on person, but in cars in the parking lot, long guns, hand guns, etc
It is not a conspiracy, it is how such technology and law progresses. The way to stop it is to cause manufacturers to not use them because it reduces sales.
Nipping the problem in the bud, long before it can develop into one you actually have to worry about.
People with experience with such technology know the direction it is heading.
It will be an abused tool if allowed to be placed into firearms. That does not require the intent of those placing them into firearms to be anything but one of convenience.
And that is part of the reason it is a problem.
Chiappa is not involved in some big conspiracy to track you, they are doing something out of convenience.
But that must be stopped, because there is a clear progression in such things.
Manufacturers didn't originally add serial numbers to help government track guns or make it easy to register your guns either. Now it is against the law to even remove them.
The intent in adding such things does not have to be bad for it to have bad consequences.
The danger is allowing other gun manufacturers to adopt similar measures for convenience and then once they are already being used by one or more big firearm manufacturers a law being put in place requiring them and making it illegal to remove or damage them.
At which point the info required on those RFID tags will be standardized, for example per ATF specifications, which means anyone will have the means to scan for RFID tags using that format. It will become easy to scan for firearm RFID tags, and law abiding citizens will not have removed, tampered, disabled, or otherwise broken the law to interfere with them.
Such progression does not happen immediately, it is a process.
At that point any corporation, employer, retail chain, etc can use RFID readers throughout buildings to determine and track who has firearms.
In essence reducing everyone's concealed carry to open carry.
It does not even have to be the primary purpose of such RFID readers in many places, just a convenient secondary use that uses the readers already put in place to track merchandise and similar things, requiring nothing but the software to also look for the firearm format.
A chain that does not like firearms can call the police or have security ask you to leave when you enter with an RFID firearm tag. Concealed won't mean unknown.
Those that work in places they currently carry concealed may lose that ability as well, when most employers with inexpensive technology can determine who is carrying in violation of company policies.
Not only on person, but in cars in the parking lot, long guns, hand guns, etc
It is not a conspiracy, it is how such technology and law progresses. The way to stop it is to cause manufacturers to not use them because it reduces sales.
Nipping the problem in the bud, long before it can develop into one you actually have to worry about.
People with experience with such technology know the direction it is heading.
It will be an abused tool if allowed to be placed into firearms. That does not require the intent of those placing them into firearms to be anything but one of convenience.
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N003k
Member
Question for those with a decent amount of experience with RFID chips...how sensitive are they? What sort of things could cause them to fail? Would enough heat off a gun for instance cause them to be damaged beyond use?
Some people are saying it might eventually be law to require them in guns, but no one's asking if that's even feasible, if they could hold up to prolonged use on a gun, or if there might be something that could just cause them to fail, like maybe a bit of copper solvent you're using to clean your gun getting on it.
Serial numbers are just a lack of metal in the frame. RFID scanners are chips that, well, would be a bit more sensitive I imagine.
Some people are saying it might eventually be law to require them in guns, but no one's asking if that's even feasible, if they could hold up to prolonged use on a gun, or if there might be something that could just cause them to fail, like maybe a bit of copper solvent you're using to clean your gun getting on it.
Serial numbers are just a lack of metal in the frame. RFID scanners are chips that, well, would be a bit more sensitive I imagine.
Geckgo
Member
Just finished reading this beligerant post, and I agree with nook. If these things had been around before someone got the clever idea of stamping a number into a frame, we might not have serial numbers. I never knew those little tags on items were RFID tags, I always thought they were just magnetized ferromagnetic pieces of crap and the "scanners" picked up the magnetic signature, but then I haven't bought many magnets from walmart. If they can be deactivated by a magnet, I would venture to say that they are too easy to destroy to ever think about using them as a replacement for serial numbers, or some similar victim of a govt probing device. N003k just got to this before I could, 
in the environment a firearm lives in.....they are not robust at all.....
for starters, they are mostly comprised of copper wire........well, guess what happens when you are a little to liberal with the copper solvent.........yup, theyll dissolve.
secondly....they are not built with durability in mind......a few firing sessions might not break it......but after a year or two of regular use, especially on a high power rifle......its not out of the realm of possibility that one would fail.
as for heat though....unless they are on the barrel....chances are they wont be effected.
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