Choices on what to do M1 Garand

That too. These days, for what they seem to be bringing, you probably wont lose money. I wouldnt say it was from the CMP though, case or not.

That rifle really doesn't look all that bad. The stock shows some use, but would probably clean up OK. The stock and metal on my first DCM Garand back in the early 80's looked a lot worse than that.
 
Try getting some pictures of the chamber.
I would brush the crap out of it and try polishing.
 
Commercial .30-06 intended for bolt action rifles may have too much pressure at the gas piston level. By all reviews "PPU Rifle Line Ammunition, .30-06 Springfield for Rifle M1 Garand", should have the correct pressure.

It may be an optical illusion but it looks like something raised inside the chamber is pressing pits into that brass and grippng it tight. Raised rust or corrosion? Or even some old preservative that has oxidized and hardened into varnish? If it were me I'd soak that chamber in cleaner for awhile and get aggressive with a chamber brush the right size before trying any thing else.

After thought: Was that muzzle already counter sunk? It swallowed a whole bullet!
 
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The government rebarrelled these things all the time. I would rebarrell it and see what other parts need replaced, refinish the stock and go from there. It's a shooter, not a collector piece, so do what you have to, to make it work well.
 
It may be an optical illusion but it looks like something raised inside the chamber is pressing pits into that brass and grippng it tight. Raised rust or corrosion? Or even some old preservative that has oxidized and hardened into varnish? If it were me I'd soak that chamber in cleaner for awhile and get aggressive with a chamber brush the right size before trying any thing else.

I looked down the tube of all the surplus rifles I purchased. If the chamber is uniformly pitted, and I think it is, trying to cut or polish them out, will likely lead to case body splits. Military chambers are generous to begin with.

The funny thing is, those pits actually cause the case to "reduce bolt thrust". And many in the shooting community argue against lubricated cases, because they want the case to carry load, to "reduce bolt thrust". Well here, the case is obviously carrying load by virtue of high case to chamber friction. And these same individuals see no contradiction in their beliefs, even though the OP had to use a cleaning rod to get the fired case out of the chamber. And the rim got ripped off, which will lead to a broken extractor in time.

I claim that high case to chamber friction is bad. I do not want to crunch fit the case to the chamber, I want as little case to chamber friction as is physically possible, and I want the fired case to drop out of the chamber.
 
The guy that used to work on my Garand is no longer in business or I would tell you to contact him. This company gets good reviews, but I know nothing about them.
https://www.m1garand.com/

I wouldn’t just assume this is a barrel only issue. I would have it assessed at CMP or somewhere like the link above.

I bought a Korean lend/lease Garand back in ‘91 for $239. It was not pretty at all. The barrel actually had these weird rings inside the bore. The rifling looked like the surface of the moon. The stock was hideous.
Anyway, I had it redone. New stock, bedded receiver, new barrel in .308, accurizing job done to take pressure off the barrel, Nat’l Match front sight. I left the rear sight mil-spec.
I wish I had a photo to post of the way it looked years ago but here it is now. I will never sell this gun. Some folks get their panties in a bunch over my laminate stock, but I really don’t care. It’s my gun and it’s a keeper.

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Once you determine it is definitely a chamber issue, I would send it to the CMP for a .308 Criterion rebarrel. No way I would trade a Garand, even with a bad barrel, for any Mosin- unless there was a $2000 bill laying on top anyway.....

I did exactly what Nightlord40K recommended. My M1 was an ex-Korean Blue Sky imported back in the 1980s that I bought off a friend. The barrel wasn't bad (in fact, you can have it for the cost of postage) but finding 30-06 M2 ball ammo here in the People's Republic is both difficult and expensive, while 7.62 M80 has been plentiful.

Total cost for the CMP rebarrel job (including a new 7.62 Criterion barrel I bought from SARCO -- I bought the new Italian walnut stock at the same time) with postage was under $400, not counting the $25 membership in the Garand Collectors Association to qualify for CMP Custom Shop services. I paid a little extra to fix a rear sight problem at the same time.

US M1 Garand.jpg

It doesn't appear that prices have risen since I had my rifle converted back in 2019.

https://thecmp.org/sales-and-service/services-for-the-m1-garand/
 
I will pile on. It looks like a Blue Sky import with a bad barrel to me. I recognize it because I have one. I am not a Garand mechanic but I know them reasonably well and shoot mine quite a bit. Put another barrel on that rascal and I bet you will see it work much better.
 
I took my my overpriced 1943 Garand back to the range today and used modern PPU to see in it would even cycle. Well that was a negative. Case heads are bulged a little, was smart to bring a long cleaning rod this time. Ripped the rims off. So I guess my choices are A:Make it a wall hanger B: Rebarrel it, C: Sell it. Any other choices I'm missing out on? 3/4 shot out barrels are on ebay for under $100 but I'd have to get someone else to change it, and the barrel on it is original to the rifle. I saw a fresh Criterion for $200, and NOS 1950s barrels for over $300. For what I paid then a rebarrel I could have had a expert grade from CMP. I do have another choice and trade a friend for his 1944 Mosin. Attached is photos of the cases

View attachment 1147797 View attachment 1147798
your barrel is toast.

Send it to me and I'll fix it up and have it back most riki-tik... rates are fair and fast turnaround.

It will get a full tech inspection before I do anything so we can see how bad it is first.
 
Rebarrel it with a good aftermarket barrel. The original barrel means nothing... the rifle is a shooter, not a collector.

I have a very early (6 digit) May'42 FedOrd rebuild... it's not as bad as a BlueSky, but it's not a CMP rifle, either. I joke that there is more putty in the stock than a '73 Pinto, and they reparked it so heavy I can't really read the SN. But... it's got a new (USGI) barrel, and all the parts work, and it's a heck of a lot of fun.
 
A .308 barrel would be fun for a shooter but looks like I'm probably looking at $400 with shipping to rebarrel thru CMP. If I could find a cheap used barrel I'd probably grab it and hold on to it and see if I can get someone local to do it. I guess as of now I'll let it sit since I have 2 other Garands. If I buy anymore I want an International Harvester or some special version of a SA. How can one tell a rifle is a blue sky vs a CMP? Does CMP keep records of all the rifles they've done?
 
I built up a NM version of a Garand in 308 Win. It is a wonderfully accurate rifle, given that I use iron sights, and it is not really a service rifle anymore.

I think it is better to keep the Garand in 30-06. I built a match competitive Garand in 308 Win

aaWCzLr.jpg


There were lots of brass shaving in front of the chamber, I managed to reduce this by adding an insert.

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The insert reduces the amount of shavings, does not eliminate them, the shavings must be due to slight cartridge misalignment.

This is what a Gene Barnett barrel looks like

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And the thing that bothers me most was the fact this rifle tosses its brass cases right in my forehead. If the brim of my cap lifted, exposing my forehead, I would finish rapid fire sequences with all sorts of half moons, full moon cuts on my forehead. The blood would leak throughout the night, staining my pillow.

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The rifle shot well in matches

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but it is impossible to say one way or another, it shoots better than the 30-06 in the Garand

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In fact, might hurt its re sale value if it is 308 Win, as those seeking Garands, want the rifle used in WW2. Which is a 30-06. The Garand was a curiosity when I shot NRA highpower, the M1a had taken over the firing line, one reason is that it maintains its match tune longer. And I do prefer loading my rapid fire rounds with a magazine.
 
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I built up a NM version of a Garand in 308 Win. It is a wonderfully accurate rifle, given that I use iron sights, and it not really a service rifle anymore.

I think it is better to keep the Garand in 30-06. I built a match competitive Garand in 308 Win

View attachment 1147949


There were lots of brass shaving in front of the chamber, I managed to reduce this by adding an insert.

View attachment 1147950

The insert reduces the amount of shavings, does not eliminate them, the shavings must be due to slight cartridge misalignment.

This is what a Gene Barnett barrel looks like

View attachment 1147951

And the thing that bothers me most was the fact this rifle tosses its brass cases right in my forehead. If the brim of my cap lifted, exposing my forehead, I would finish rapid fire sequences with all sorts of half moons, full moon cuts on my forehead. The blood would leak throughout the night, staining my pillow.

View attachment 1147952

The rifle shot well in matches

View attachment 1147953

but it is impossible to say one way or another, it shoots better than the 30-06 in the Garand

View attachment 1147954

View attachment 1147955

In fact, might hurt its re sale value if it is 308 Win, as those seeking Garands, want the rifle used in WW2. Which is a 30-06. The Garand was a curiosity when I shot NRA highpower, the M1a had taken over the firing line, one reason is that it maintains its match tune longer. And I do prefer loading my rapid fire rounds with a magazine.

Amazing match rifle. I believe this one has a soul, and it thirsts for blood.
 
A .308 barrel would be fun for a shooter but looks like I'm probably looking at $400 with shipping to rebarrel thru CMP. If I could find a cheap used barrel I'd probably grab it and hold on to it and see if I can get someone local to do it. I guess as of now I'll let it sit since I have 2 other Garands. If I buy anymore I want an International Harvester or some special version of a SA. How can one tell a rifle is a blue sky vs a CMP? Does CMP keep records of all the rifles they've done?
Blue Skys have an import mark under the front of the barrel that actually says "Blue Sky Imports" or somesuch.
 
Blue Skys have an import mark under the front of the barrel that actually says "Blue Sky Imports" or somesuch.
Can't find any import marks at all. And I forgot but it does look like the Op rod, rear barrel band and trigger group have been changed as they are a nicer gray color vs the old patina the rest of the metal
 
I looked down the tube of all the surplus rifles I purchased. If the chamber is uniformly pitted, and I think it is, trying to cut or polish them out, will likely lead to case body splits. Military chambers are generous to begin with.

The funny thing is, those pits actually cause the case to "reduce bolt thrust". And many in the shooting community argue against lubricated cases, because they want the case to carry load, to "reduce bolt thrust". Well here, the case is obviously carrying load by virtue of high case to chamber friction. And these same individuals see no contradiction in their beliefs, even though the OP had to use a cleaning rod to get the fired case out of the chamber. And the rim got ripped off, which will lead to a broken extractor in time.

I claim that high case to chamber friction is bad. I do not want to crunch fit the case to the chamber, I want as little case to chamber friction as is physically possible, and I want the fired case to drop out of the chamber.


There's a difference between obturation of a clean case to a smooth chamber that releases when the pressure drops, and a case being friction welded into a rough chamber and then having the rim ripped off because it won't release. In a properly operating rifle with a smooth chamber, case to chamber friction does reduce loading of the bolt lugs but does not increase the force necessary to extract the case when pressure drops.
 
By the looks of the brass the chamber is dirty/pitted/rusted. Brush the daylights out of the chamber. If it turned out to be toasts barrel is a cheap investment on a Garand, barring any other issues. You can get a a used USGI barrel to spin on and very good chance you will get good headspace with it.
 
There's a difference between obturation of a clean case to a smooth chamber that releases when the pressure drops, and a case being friction welded into a rough chamber and then having the rim ripped off because it won't release. In a properly operating rifle with a smooth chamber, case to chamber friction does reduce loading of the bolt lugs but does not increase the force necessary to extract the case when pressure drops.

this is a time/pressure/movement diagram of a Government 308 Garand barrel with the Garand gas cylinder. The system unlocks when there still is pressure in the barrel. This is why dry cases get stretched in dry Garand chambers. Not only does the case get stretched when the bolt is closed, it get further stretched on extraction. The recommendation for Garands and M1a's was to shoot the case five times and scrap them before case head separations ruined your score.

oMRSvid.jpg


When I lubricated my cases and fired them in an M1a, I took a set 22 firings before the primer pockets got loosey goosey. Never had a case head separated when the cases were externally lubricated. They did not stick to the chamber during combustion, or during extraction.

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this is a time/pressure/movement diagram of a Government 308 Garand barrel with the Garand gas cylinder. The system unlocks when there still is pressure in the barrel.
View attachment 1148005
That pressure curve is NOT the chamber or barrel pressure, but the pressure inside the gas cylinder.

Bullet exit occurs almost at 0 on that graph so, during that entire 1.4 millisecond interval the barrel pressure is blowing down.

Oh, and by the way, you know what loose primer pockets is an indication of, don't you? Excessive bolt thrust, exceeding the yield strength of the brass . . .
 
Oh, and by the way, you know what loose primer pockets is an indication of, don't you? Excessive bolt thrust, exceeding the yield strength of the brass . . .

Well Ordnance Employee, how many times was brass intended to be reloaded? I think I got my money's worth out of my LC66 brass. Now the 223 Federal Match brass I picked up at Camp Perry, the stuff the Service Rifle Teams fired, I dumped that around three reloads because the pockets would open. And that was without lubricating them
 
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I did not wade through all of the what ifs. Did it come from CMP? If it did contact them and they will take it back and fix it or make it right with you. The CMP does not send out junk like some say they do. They may be beat up but they will run. If it did not come from CMP you can still send it to their shop and have it fixed. New barrel or whatever it needs.
 
this is a time/pressure/movement diagram of a Government 308 Garand barrel with the Garand gas cylinder. The system unlocks when there still is pressure in the barrel. This is why dry cases get stretched in dry Garand chambers. Not only does the case get stretched when the bolt is closed, it get further stretched on extraction. The recommendation for Garands and M1a's was to shoot the case five times and scrap them before case head separations ruined your score.

View attachment 1148005


When I lubricated my cases and fired them in an M1a, I took a set 22 firings before the primer pockets got loosey goosey. Never had a case head separated when the cases were externally lubricated. They did not stick to the chamber during combustion, or during extraction.

View attachment 1148006


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That is some fantastic information that I was not aware of. I learned something new today, many thanks.
 
@Slamfire how does brass get stretched as the bolt closes?

You are correct, the case does not get stretched on chambering, that is a misstatement by me. It will be stretched during firing if there is clearance between the case shoulder and chamber. This is inevitable at some level. The firing pin hits the primer, shoves the case a bit forward, the primer comes out of the pocket and positively pushes the case forward. Then as pressure increases, if the case shoulder grips the chamber front, the side wall has to stretch for the case to touch the bolt face. That is, if there is enough pressure to stretch the case sidewalls. Professor Boatwright estimated the pressures to stretch the thicker, near case head sidewalls of a 243 case was around 25,000 psia. Incidentally, this is how the "famous P.O Ackley" lug less 30-30 trick worked. P.O Ackely removed the locking lugs from a 30-30 and fired one of this Ackley Improved 30-30 cartridges, and the bolt stayed put. If anyone cares to notice, P.O Ackely never ran that same slight of hand with an AI 30-06 where the pressures are above 65 K psia. He could have milled off the lugs of a 30-06 bolt gun, fired a full power Ackley Improved 30-06, and at those pressures, the case would have separated and the bolt would have blown out.

Ackely did not pressure test this test, nor did he ever release any of the bolt thrust data he had. In the first issue of Handloader, Vol 1 1966, Ackley writes an article titled “Wildcat Pressures” .And in it is a picture of bolt thrust test fixture that Ackley made. Whatever data he collected Ackley never released, obviously because Ackley's straight walled cases did not "reduce bolt thrust".

You can look at Varmit Al's page, he calculates bolt load for various case frictions.

http://www.varmintal.com/a243z.htm

at an extremely high case to chamber friction, and "low pressures" in a fixed breech gun you can get the case to lock in and not stretch.

Increasing the Coefficient of Friction to 0.55 the brass case head never does contact the bolt face for the 35,000 peak chamber pressure load. This condition would have the primer protruding slightly.

Varmit Al also shows that a high case to chamber friction actually increases the stress through the case head. As he says:

For a very rough chamber with a 0.55 Coefficient of Friction the movie shows the case stretching and thinning where case head separations usually occurs.

The one part of the case you do not want to stress is the case head. It sticks out of the chamber. You can tear the sidewalls off, and all that will happen is a jam. But if the case head ruptures and gas gets into the action, these sort of failures happen

IHE2FvS.jpg

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A high case to chamber friction will result in ripped rims with gas guns, and in fact, with most of the mechanisms on the market. @lysanderxiii is correct, the pressure curve I posted for the Garand timing only shows the pressure inside the gas cylinder against time. Springfield Armory was unable to get the chamber pressure system to work during the test. However, to make my point about gas gun cases stretching, I will show a "generic" 308 Win pressure curve.

The gas cylinder pressure curve

oMRSvid.jpg

generic 308 Win pressure curve from an AMCP pamphlet

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notice the time at unlock for the Garand gas system, 2.3 milliseconds, and notice the pressure at 2.3 milliseconds in the inset of figure 4-5. That pressure is under 500 psia. So when the Garand unlocks, there is around 500 psia pressure in the chamber, and that will fix the front of the cartridge to the chamber at the time the bolt unlocks and moves to the rear.

It is worth going to Chinn's Machine Gun Book Vol IV, take your pick of where you want to download it

http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=347-The-Machine-Gun-(by-George-M.-Chinn)

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/MG/

and look at the blow back section, and the gas gun section. Chinn clearly shows that unlock occurs while there is still pressure in the chamber. The pressure is below the rupture limit of the brass case, and it is there to help "pop the case out" of the chamber. Chinn calls it the residual blowback effect.

Chinn provides these images in Vol IV

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This residual blow back effect is why gas guns stretch brass badly if there is high case to chamber friction. Such as the stretching that occurred with these cases extracted from a fellow competitor's rifle. These were fired in a M1a. Bud fired dry, unlubricated cases in his rifle and tossed the brass at the fifth firing . It was not wise to continue shooting ammunition just at the point of case head separation in matches, as malfunctions ruin scores.

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I did a crude measurement of my lubricated cases to see what dimensional changes occurred.

prior to being fired these cases were all sized down to the minimum "Go" dimension.

TqQrriR.jpg

All of these cases were fired lubricated. I rubbed Johnson paste wax on these cases, under the temperatures and pressures of combustion, the wax melts and becomes a lubricant. Just as the ammunition in the Pedersen rifle. Pedersen used a wax lubricant on his 276 Pedersen cases. https://www.forgottenweapons.com/m1-garand-development/us-pedersen-276-rifle/

tqELLsU.jpg

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In his patent, Pedersen clearly claims its to be a lubricant.

Process of coating cartridges
Patented Nov. 4, 1930 JOHN DOUGLAS PEDERSEN, OF SPRINGFIELD, MASSACHUSETTS

http://www.google.com/patents/US1780566

In the present invention, the material for said coating has been so chosen as to perform the additional function of acting as a lubricant for the case of the cartridge, both for facilitating introduction into the chamber of the gun and the extraction thereof after firing.

What you can see from my gauge measurements, is my lubricated cases are longer by about 0.0045 ish after firing. This growth in length is not from side wall stretch, it is from the shoulder moving as the case is withdrawn. I would have had sidewall stretch if the case neck and shoulder were stuck to the chamber, but since I lubricated them they did not adhere. Instead, the shoulder was deformed, moved I am going to say, during extraction. The pressure had to be high enough to cause the shoulder to change shape during extraction, in order to cause that psuedo case length growth.

Anyway, given the cost of 308 Win and 30-06 cases, running about fifty cents to a dollar a case, I think it makes economic sense to lubricate Garand cases to make them last longer. Any bug a bears about lubricated cases increasing bolt thrust and causing catastrophic damage to the weapon are clearly over stated scare tactics



And they all go back to an Army Ordnance Bureau coverup of their defective low number M1903 rifles. These rifles were made in Arsenals where temperature gauges did not exist in the forge shop, nor heat treatment furnaces. Temperatures were judged by eye. Easily a third of all low number M1903's have burnt receivers and bolts, and at the time they were exploding on the firing line. Instead of admitting that their rifles were defective, Army Ordnance created a coverup, claiming grease and greased bullets were unpredictably raising pressures to catastrophic levels.

Greased bullets never bothered Swiss rifles.

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Captain Crossman demonized greased bullets as dangerous in his Grease article in the 15 April 1921 Arms and the Man article. He knew that the Swiss were greasing their bullets, and dismissed it as something the Swiss did to shoot holes in cheese!

Some nations still flirt with it. The Swiss cartridge, with its boat-tail bullet, all neatly packed in the cardboard clip, has a little grease-or soft wax, to be correct-where bullet joins case’ but we do not know whether this is regular issue stuff for the Swiss private soldier or whether it is extra special stuff for shooting holes in the Swiss variety of cheese.
 
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