Chronograph Dilema

[Doublehelix]

Ugh! I know this topic has been discussed to death here and on other forums, but I am pretty frustrated right now as I wrestle with the question of which chronograph to buy.

You can get a standard shoot-through chronograph for between $100 and $200 that will get the job done for the serious hobbyist. I realize that those that are more advanced can spend several times more.

The downside to these types of shoot-through devices are many, including needing a cold range to setup, the possibility of shooting your own chronograph, and of course weather and light issues, just to name a few. In the winter, I shoot at an indoor course where you cannot setup anything beyond the firing line, PERIOD.

The next step up (in my mind) is something like the Magnetospeed, which solves some of the shoot-through design issues listed above, but is almost $400, and has the potential to affect the POI. Even with the rail adapter, it still will not work on all of my guns. (small pistols, etc.)

This brings me to the Labradar, which solves all of those technical issues, but costs $560 plus mounting plate and carrying case, so well over $600 for the package. There are some reported issues with the Labradar as well, but honestly, this is by far the best solution that I can find, but... did I mention that it is over $600?

I can buy a lot of stuff for $600 that will last me for a long, long time, like *two* Forster Co-Ax presses or a Dillon XL650. Maybe even a Remington 700 in .308...

The Labradar will see *some* work, but not enough to justify the $600 ticket even though it is perfect in pretty much every way.

How are other folks reconciling this???

 

[Qball16]

I went with competition electronics ProCrono. Price was right, I guess I can't know how accurate it is but my rounds are commonly within 20 fps of what Quickload predicts. My favorite part is the optional Bluetooth adaptor that sends shot info and gives group statistics on you phone or tablet. I like the magnetospeed idea but have heard too much about POI changes. I like to chrono and shoot groups at the same time. My club has an auxillary 100 yard range with just a few benches. I go here when using the chrony for no cold range issues.

http://www.competitionelectronics.com/product/bluetooth-adapter/

 

[FROGO207]

The Labradar is only $559.95 at midway. I have a couple shooting Crony's, one I actually managed to shoot. But for the price they are the best option. BUT I shoot at my home range and can set it up where ever whenever. I would get one of those if the budget was a wee bit bigger though.

 

[Varminterror]

All you need is a buddy with a lab radar and a box of something he enjoys, whether that's candy bars, cigars, or a case of coors.

I started with a prochrony, bought a few others on the way, have a Shooting Chrony Alpha and a Pact Mark IV timer/chrony, just picked up a used magnetospeed last year and I just bough half of a Lab Radar with a buddy who wanted one a few months ago to split between his archery shop and my business. I'm tempted to sell everything but the lab radar and the pact (since it's a shot timer too) after using the lab radar.

Does the average Joe need anything more than a ProChrony for $100? Nope. But I chrony something at least once a week. Being able to write it off as biz expense is nice too.

 

[cfullgraf]

I'm a gadget kind of guy and have tried a number of chronographs and shot a couple of them. With optical sensor chronographs, reliable sensing of the bullet was always a bit of a crap shoot. For my CED M2, I bought the infrared lights and it improved things a fair amount. But, the position of the sun in the sky still caused problems at times.

I have a Magnetospeed V2 and it works great on rifles. I have not tried it on handguns. I found that while the point of aim shifted a bit with the bayonet attached, the group sizes remained fairly consistent. Good enough to make some educated decisions on good loads to be sighted in at a later time.

Even so, with optical sensor chronographs, I always found it a PIA to shoot a target for groups while shooting through the sensor rig. Too much futzing to get things lined up. Not an issue with the Magnetospeed.

I recently got a LabRadar. While expensive, it has been the best of the chronographs that I have had experience with at getting good data reliably. Following the directions is important and hard for some men to do. There are lots of settings to be set at the start but many do not need to be changed once set. Some settings like bullet weight need to be adjusted when the subject round changes. An external battery is useful and runs the unit for a long time.The LabRadar uses a USB external power system so buying the external battery from LabRadar is not a necessity. Aiming the unit to the target is important. I've found no problems using the rudimentary sights on the unit but some folks do. There are several work arounds posted on the internet.

I bought the table mounting plate but have yet to use it. I set the LabRadar up on a camera tripod that I already had.

I have not had problems with errant reflected signals with my LabRadar but I have read that it can happen.

The only mis-read that I have had with the LabRadar was operator error.

I shoot at my home range.

Cost can be an issue as noted by the OP.

 

[springer99]

FWIW, how often do you really think that you'll use a chronograph, and weight that against your purchase$$$. The accuracy of them all is about the same, and the biggest difference is in the ease of setup and use. Definately get one with a remote read-out and reset and you should be set.
I've used a $75 Chrono mounted on an old camera tripod now for over 15yrs and it's still going strong. It's worked well for me for everything from HP rifle, pistols and even air pistols. It goes to the range with me once or twice a year and with fresh batteries is still ticking.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I have an original shooting chrony. It finally died from getting tagged by a gascheck.
Guts and case are still good but Chrony long ago quit fixing them for half price.
My older brother once loaned his, got it back in pieces, with a .30cal hole through it. Loanee bought a new one!

I replaced mine with a Caldwell Engineering chrono. $80 when they had their first sale at MidwayUSA.
I'm very satisfied with it, but then I don't get deep into statistical analysis of individual loads.
I suggest you get a basic unit, then decide if you need more.
re:setup. There are a few tricks that make it relatively simple and avoid shooting the chrono.

1. Don't allow someone else to use it unsupervised or shoot through it!
2. Set up target first, set firearm on bench On bags, ect aimed at target. With either action open (scoped) or bolt removed (iron sights), with chrono mounted on tripod, sight back through scope or bore to ensure you are shooting through screens...
3. Check for alignment before shooting.
4. Get a piece of plexiglass cut to cover the screen. I used to have/use one on my chrony. I got complacent after a couple of decades and then tagged mine with an errant gascheck. I once had a shotgun wad knock down the chrono but the small 4" square piece scotch taped to case saved the face display. I won't talk about knocking down with muzzle blast from .300RUM, but it survived all that. I was on my third set of homemade baffles.

 

[Qball16]

I do this too. I set targets, aim at lowest one. Use lowest mag on scope to make sure I'm in the meat of the reading area. Then I remove my bolt and make sure there isn't a chronograph between my muzzle and the target. But, setting up on a busy range can be a drag for sure.

 

[kcofohio]

Doublehelix, is it really a requirement that you are able to chrony in the winter.

If you can develope your loads in fair weather, I would opt for the Pro-Digital with Bluetooth. Once you set it up, the data is controlled by the receiving device.

 

[Load Master]

I've had my LabRadar for almost a year now. Yes, you will want an external battery pack. This doesn't have to be the one LabRadar sells, any good USB battery pack will fit the bill. I use Unifun 10400mAh Watt Waterproof External Battery that cost $17 from Amazon. It will run the LabRadar all day long.

As far as stands, If you have a camera tripod you can use it for mounting the LabRadar. The LabRadar uses a standard camera mount. This gives plenty of low cost mounting options.

Aiming the LabRadar to accomplish the farthest down range tracking is the biggest challenge I've ran into. It takes a few tries to achieve the best. For those that are not familiar, the most unique feature of the LabRadar compared to most any other unit on the market, it will track your bullet down range giving you the velocity change with distance. For data junkies like myself, this gives you a lot of data to play with and to do a number of calculations with post range time.

I would recommend the LabRadar. It cost more than the other, it does way more than any others and the best part, it holds its value if you should desire to sell it.

 

[rfwobbly]

Then it's probably time to join a small local private gun club that will allow your own range and allow you to place a chrono anytime or any place you choose. A gun club membership lasts a lot longer than a chrono and comes with free brass !!

 

[Bart B.]

While many think a chrony is mandatory for best load development, I've never did that. Never owned one. Borrowed one to see the average velocity difference in holding rifles loose and firm plus seeing where shots at long range struck vertically versus muzzle velocity. I just used the same loads the match winners and record holders used. My hand loads tested as accurate or precise as theirs.

Never cared if my bullets left 100 fps different than data says it should or did. I know how to adjust sights to compensate.

 

[Offfhand]

Mr. Load Master’s comments (above in this thread) about the Labradar unit are worth reading again as he offers useful insights based on actual experience rather than the unsupported opinions often seen in similar discussions. The Labradar’s operation and convenience puts it in a class by itself and the collateral data it provides is fascinating, as he points out. His experiences, both pro and con, mirror my own, especially difficulty in positioning. And his advice about a power pac is also to be noted. To his comments I would add that Labradar accessories are overpriced and unnecessary. Their base plate for example is too light and flimsy. Better to use a standard camera tripod, or make your own bench mount as I did with heavy metal plate and unit mounted on Wilton power arm, making positioning fast and secure, as shown in attached photo.

 

[Varminterror]

I would tend to agree, within known distance square range shooting, especially on matches allowing sighters and in a format where we can call and catalog our shots even within a string, or equally, when hunting whitetails at 250yrds or less where external ballistics rarely matter, having accurate "at range" velocities, and knowing the impact of temperature affects upon your velocity really doesn't matter much. The smallest groups I ever shot were with provided ammo and a single shot Annie where I had no idea of my MV, but that was a very specific competition format - what happened between my muzzle and the target didn't matter, just had to find the center with the sights on the sighting targets and then shoot for score.

But for guys hunting and shooting longer unknown distances in variant conditions where a first shot impact makes a difference, having accurate muzzle velocity and ballistic coefficient info is pretty critical.

But on the topic of Lab Radar - What I have NOT tried yet - could a guy shoot PAST a lab radar and pick up down range velocities beyond 100yrds? Given that ability, a guy could REALLY hone in on his true BC for a given bullet.

 

[wally]

But on the topic of Lab Radar - What I have NOT tried yet - could a guy shoot PAST a lab radar and pick up down range velocities beyond 100yrds? Given that ability, a guy could REALLY hone in on his true BC for a given bullet.

What would be the point of duplicating all the good hard work done by people like Bryan Litz and the folks working at the bullet companies who publish tables of the BCs for their bullets?

Trying to do it for a non-match grade bullet not in the tables already, would seem to be a total waste of time and effort.

 

[Load Master]

To address a couple of questions and view points. Yes, many people have developed their personal loads never having and or using a chronograph. The truth is it can be done without one. However, if you know how to use one it can provide data that greatly improves getting to that perfect recipe faster.

My personal favorite information is standard deviation. This will tell you how consistent you are at loading, how much variance primers are causing and much more. Like I said earlier, I'm a data junkie. I love using it to tell what is happening with my rounds. There is much more to look at and make use of than just velocity.

To the question of data past 100 yards, I have read where sometime in the future LabRadar could link multiple units in a chain fashion. The units have Bluetooth and wifi, but currently (as far as I know) not end user accessible.

 

[Reloadron]

I would sit down with a fresh clean sheet of paper and a sharp pencil. Make a list of features you want in a chronograph and approximately what you want to spend. That is how I would start. There are chronographs ranging from $100 to over $500 out there and all of them tell you how fast a bullet is traveling so it is a matter of other features and which features you want. A chronograph is a nice to have so keep that in mind.

Ron

 

[wally]

The units have Bluetooth and wifi

You can forget about Bluetooth at 100 yards, WiFi will be borderline without directional antennas and use lots of battery. Again, while intriguing for a techie, I question the rationale of duplicating the work of the experts at the bullet makers using inferior equipment to determine a BC.

I'm in agreement that the standard deviation is the second most important thing you can get from a chronograph.

 

[Bart B.]

Unless you chronograph your loads with the barreled action hard-mounted so it doesn't recoil, or shoot the rifle totally free recoil, any SD number derived by hand held, shouldered rifles will be skewed by human inability to hold the rifle consistently. Average and extreme spreads will also be skewed.

All of which is why I never cared what my bullets' velocity numbers be. They must have been ok else accuracy wouldn't be very good. Sierra uses the same load for different component lots used testing bullets for accuracy. The get as good of accuracy with their bullets as anyone.

 

[Jim Watson]

With all that slop in human holding, I wonder how we manage to get single digit SD and even single digit ES from black powder

 

[Bart B.]

My personal favorite information is standard deviation. This will tell you how consistent you are at loading, how much variance primers are causing and much more.

Well, tiny groups on paper are better. If someone else shoots your rifle and ammo, the velocity numbers will probably be different; sometimes worse, other times better. Rarely the same.

 

[Bart B.]

With all that slop in human holding, I wonder how we manage to get single digit SD and even single digit ES from black powder

Easy answer. Some people hold rifles more repeatable than others. And the right components are used.

If your barrel whip parameters vertically let the bullets leave on its upswing at midpoint, you may get better accuracy with a bigger ES and SD numbers

 

[Jim Watson]

Well we can eliminate the variable people part, MY BPCR velocity is more uniform than MY Smokeless.

 

[Reloadron]

Well, tiny groups on paper are better. If someone else shoots your rifle and ammo, the velocity numbers will probably be different; sometimes worse, other times better. Rarely the same.

Which brings us to how much does it really matter? While the numbers can be interesting the majority are looking for a good group size. While the chronograph is a fun tool and getting that SD number down can be a challenge and interesting the final measure of a load is generally how well we get it to group. When I can get a small SD combined with a nice sub MOA group is sweet it is really about how small the group is.

Ron

 

[Load Master]

Unless you chronograph your loads with the barreled action hard-mounted so it doesn't recoil, or shoot the rifle totally free recoil, any SD number derived by hand held, shouldered rifles will be skewed by human inability to hold the rifle consistently. Average and extreme spreads will also be skewed.

All of which is why I never cared what my bullets' velocity numbers be. They must have been ok else accuracy wouldn't be very good. Sierra uses the same load for different component lots used testing bullets for accuracy. The get as good of accuracy with their bullets as anyone.

I shoot from bench using a bi-pod. When dealing with an event that last less than 470 micro seconds in an 18 inch barrel, it doesn't matter who or what is holding it, the velocity and standard deviation will not change enough to be able to measure. The point of impact on a target does based on how the gun is held, but not the velocity or SD.