Church security

[Steve Raacke]

Just to add to the conversation, Louisiana bans Conceal Carry in churches unless the carrier has 1-A valid La CHP, 2-attends 8 hours of tactical training per year, 3-is part of his church's recognized security team.
Source- http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0710/39466.html

Louisiana GOP Gov. Bobby Jindal has signed a law allowing holders of concealed-weapons permits to carry guns into houses of worship.

The bill, signed Tuesday night, allows permit holders who take an additional eight hours of tactical training each year to bring a gun into “any church, synagogue, mosque or other similar place of worship.”

The bill, sponsored by GOP state Rep. Henry Burns, also requires that the head of the house of worship announce either verbally or in a weekly newsletter to the congregation that its members may be carrying weapons.

 

[Loosedhorse]

no one open carries

I appreciate your clarification. But it unless the third person isn't carrying at all, then you are still bringing a gun to an acknowledged volatile situation, one that you have chosen to arrange. Of course, if the third person isn't armed, how do you make sure that batterer isn't carrying?

The general rule for non-LE is not, "If it's going to be dangerous, bring a gun." It's "If it's going to be dangerous, don't go." This appears to be a dangerous situation into which the team member is voluntarily entering armed. Not an emergency in which he didn't have a choice but to be involved.

An no, one cannot presume that the average gun owner is level-headed enought to deal with the specific situations that may arise in a church.

I think by this you may mean that it is important that "team" members have some additional training--maybe as a group--and that they are all on the "same page" regarding what they would do if... I absolutely agree.

But, I'm not sure what exactly you are doing to exclude your supposed "non-level-headed" gun-owner from carrying during services, and from responding as a "free agent" during a sudden emergency.

Perhaps, for example, you've made a general announcement to the congregation that any person (other than a team member) who shows a weapon during an active-shooter emergency will be engaged as hostile.

For some a little authority goes to theri head, and other not. Some can be discrete and some not.

Maybe a case for the old saying: "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." To the extent there are loose cannon about, one strategy would be to fit them into the regime.

I know that all situations are unique, but there are probably some common things to learn from. I do appreciate your helping me think through these issues. Reading about dry policies on paper is different than asking someone who has implemented them in the flesh. So, thanks.

 

[rdsmith3]

I think any church security plan should include mandatory background checks for all church workers, including volunteers. This is especially true for those who are working with, or near, children. There are predators even in churches.

Our church has a security plan. Since we are in NJ, there is effectively no CCW. The security plan was initiated by someone who is a current member of the NJSP. We have a number of current and ex LEO's and military in our church.

 

[theicemanmpls]

I think any church security plan should include mandatory background checks for all church workers, including volunteers. This is especially true for those who are working with, or near, children. There are predators even in churches.

Our church has a security plan. Since we are in NJ, there is effectively no CCW. The security plan was initiated by someone who is a current member of the NJSP. We have a number of current and ex LEO's and military in our church.

There are predators even in churches.

Churches have been hunting grounds for predators for hundreds of years.

IMHO, a more serious threat comes from within, not from outside. Thats a whole other topic in a whole different forum.

It is a must to have a plan at a church. All those people packed in one room. A perfect target of opportunity for that armed mentally disturbed individual.

To many of these senseless massacres have occurred in places other then churches. When crowds gather, a defense plan should be part of the agenda. Having armed body guards, is only an option and should be utilized only after a great deal of planning and thought.

Federal air Marshal's attend several weeks of training. How many hours does the average church usher train? Taking out a bad guy in a crowded church is not much different then taking out one in a commercial aircraft. The whole idea is not to hit any of the sheep.

 

[Riz58]

Loosedhorse: Glen Evans at Church Security Alliance has excellent on-line resources, and among those he discusses what type of people tend to have the right make-up for security team personnel. Call it profiling, pre-judging, or whatever, but life experience, personality types, etc. all go into the equation. People may be called upon to make life and death situations on behalf of the church and its members, and we don't want people who cannot make good decisions with limited information, who are hesitant to act, or who think of its as a game. Not every guntoter, who may be perfectly competent in making decisions to defend himself and his family, is a good choice to serve on a security team.

Why do we go with the pastor to a meeting in the church building? Because it is less dangerous for the pastor to set up the time and place for meeting rather than have the upset person waiting to catch him unexpectedly somewhere else. We understand there is risk (we accepted that when we signed on), but one of our primary responsibilities is the protection of the pastor. In those circumstances, we seek to control the environment to the best of our ability, and we are prepared to deal with any difficulties that might arise.

The CCW hero in the crowd is an added factor to be considered in any armed response situation. This is not a laboratory and we cannot control all the varibles. That is why you need the right personality types who, with additional training, can react correctly and quickly as things pop-up around them, not panic, and can handle stressful situations. They also need to have a command authority presence and be able to give clear, concise directions to a crowd.

In our congregation, we have a fair degree of confidence that we know most of the "gun guys". Those gun guys also know that we have established a safety team that has armed members. These individuals will be a great asset in protecting their Bible Study class in the event of an active shooter lockdown, for instance. In an attack during worship service, based upon our experience with human nature, they may get involved if the shooter were right next to them; otherwise, they will lie low. The New Life incident tends to confirm that it was their security team personnel that ran to the gunfire while other CCWers (and in a church that large there were bound to be some there) either evacuated or choose to hold their ground.

I am sorry, but a bunch of good ol' boys saying we got it covered is not good enough. Brave people may act, but brave people acting in a coordinated manner pursuant to a plan is much more effective.

 

[conw]

We understand there is risk (we accepted that when we signed on), but one of our primary responsibilities is the protection of the pastor.

VIP protection type service for pastor is a significantly different goal from generally keeping the congregation safe from a variety of threats. It's not totally incompatible... just a different goal and an interesting choice.

I personally would think that a general plan to communicate early and often and spot threats at a distance (figuratively and literally), focus primarily on threats to the congregation before, during, and after service hours, while still allowing an emphasis on personal safety (much like police officers are sometimes told "Your job is protecting yourself so you can go home and see your family, in addition to fulfilling your obligations within that constraint" - obviously some type of police units will have a higher risk tolerance), would be a superior model in general for what most people want out of this, to something that focuses on pastor protection using a VIP protection model.

There could be overlap, commonality, congruence, but also potential trade offs and the "team" would have to review those trade offs and be aware of them in light of goals, risk tolerance, etc.

 

[Ryanxia]

My Church doesn't have a security plan to my knowledge but I carry and think 1 or 2 others do as well. The important thing is to let your congregation know that you support and encourage their carrying to defend themselves. We have several older members at our Church and I couldn't see them protecting themselves or others (like the children) without a tool to help do that.

Glad you're taking a proactive stance on security. I wish I knew the King James version of this verse because that's what I read but I'm reminded of this.

Luke 22:36 NIV
New International Version
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

 

[Loosedhorse]

We understand there is risk (we accepted that when we signed on)

What I am concerned about is whether in accepting risk, you may be creating it.

You have implied that the situation between the pastor and the batterer is such that there is reasonable fear that the batterer may lie in wait for the pastor, to do him harm. Do you make the police "officially" aware of your concerns (I understand that some police officers are on your team)?

I would be concerned, given a meeting arranged under such circumstances, that if it goes south, there will be the question of preclusion. Arranging the meeting may perhaps not be seen as taking reasonable precautions to avoid violence, but instead as putting spark together with gasoline, and then being "surprised" that a fire resulted.

That is, surprised that you had to use deadly force. The question may arise in that case: if this was foreseeable, why was it fostered instead of prevented? I'm sure you know your congregation, and the "mood of the court" in your area, better than I can.

Just as I know me and my congregation. If I'm asked to join a group "just in case" something bad happens during services, I'd be happy to help. If instead I'm asked, "We're bringing in a guy who's really steamed at Pastor, and we want you there to do whatever it takes if he gets rough"--well, I'll pass. Just me.

Glen Evans at Church Security Alliance has excellent on-line resources

I'll read them. Thanks.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I think any church security plan should include mandatory background checks for all church workers, including volunteers. This is especially true for those who are working with, or near, children. There are predators even in churches.

Don't quote me on this but I believe Colorado requires it. I do know that every church I've ever attended did

 

[dfsixstring]

You all have broadened this topic considerably for me - thank you. As one of the original posters to this thread, my "intent" for getting permission to CC at church was for personal protection and family protection. I never considered this to be anything different than carrying at WM. I am part of a small church in a "not so good" part of town. I am not a part of an elite security force - just a concerned parent.

 

[ccsniper]

Unfortunately Arkansas specifically denies carrying a weapon in a place of worship. I tried to get my pastor to sign a petition asking the state to revise its church carry law but he said "we always have someone armed in the services" or in other words they always have someone break the law. He refuses to sign the petition to make what those armed men do legal.

 

[dfsixstring]

I believe GA has a statute prohibiting it too.

 

[Texan Scott]

OP, consider reaching out 'ecumenically'... by which I mean, ask a rabbi or two. (Surprisingly enough, a lot of their congregations have been giving thought to these things a lot longer than, say, Methodists). A family member's rabbi in Dallas has such a policy... it goes like this: "You think none of these people have guns?!?"
The synagogue allows it. He bears no burden of knowledge or responsibility... some carry, some don't. He doesn't know or need to know who, or how many, or where they sit... AND NEITHER DOES ANYONE ELSE.

 

[kingcheese]

At my church it involves knowing who's carrying where they are, keeping key people in certain areas and blending in, most people don't know where or who we are

 

[Texan Scott]

WWJD?

hmmm... purely an isolated anecdote... but the only account I recall of him ever actually being involved in a place of worship altercation, he was armed with something made of braided leather, upending furniture, and there were sheep involved. However, it is my understanding that he started the altercation, being somewhat unhappy with members of the clergy. I'm not sure how much help that is here.
The fundamental difficulty here is that some people both inside and outside the church, will want to treat the setting as somehow immune from the possibility of criminal violence. If you're not prepared to protect yourself or your congregation, consider NOT reaching out to that recently-divorced young mother of two... you'll be inviting her to spend a known, set time in a place where her ex-husband can find her and expect no resistance.
But here I am, "preaching to the choir" again...

 

[justice06rr]

If I could carry my rifles to church, I would...

 

[Jason_G]

In Co Springs First Presbyterian uses Wackenhut

Did anyone else find it at least a little amusing that Wackenhut phonetically resembles "whack a nut"? Very apropos.

You may have to sell some cloaks first to pay for the overhead.

Boy, this thread is full of them


I'm Roman Catholic, and a bad one at that. I tend to follow priests that I like around from one parish to another instead of staying at one church. Kind of rules out church security detail for me. Silly that there even needs to be such a thing. Silly on several levels, but I think that's another thread.

Jason

 

[Skribs]

The biggest part of any church security plan is having the support of the elders/deacons, admin staff, and pastoral staff. I'm not just saying that you have the go ahead, but they need to actively contribute to the security as well. If they are not willing to follow the security rules, your church won't have security.

 

[Browns Fan]

Quote:
"What exactly are your churches preaching that you have so many "miscreants" that you need armed guards?"

The gospel is offensive to some. I have been to services where I felt that the preacher was talking directly to me. If some nutcase were to have the same feeling, he may resort to violence.

 

[Esoxchaser]

In Michigan it is assumed that whatever happens in church is Gods will.
People cannot carry firearms to intervene.

 

[beatledog7]

In Michigan it is assumed that whatever happens in church is Gods will.
People cannot carry firearms to intervene.

Well, if that ain't a giant can o' worms!

I'll go first -- God's will happens only in church? Or God decides where firearms should be disallowed so his will can be carried out there without some gun-toting mortal interfering?

Which?

 

[Coop45]

I dug a few holes in Vietnam, if you folks need any advise. Always try to channelize the enemy into your machine-guns. LOL!! Can you spell paranoid?

 

[Deaf Smith]

Meanwhile..

Shooting at Sikh temple in Wisconsin leaves at least 7 dead, including gunman

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/05/possible-injuries-after-shooting-at-sikh-temple-in-wisconsin/

I presume no security or CCW.

Deaf

 

[Ric_in_OR]

Practice your plan.

Having had plans for various emergencies - high winds, earthquake, fire, lost child, ect
I and others found it frustrating when there is no commitment to practice by the leadership.

The music and worship will practice. But not safety, what is up with that?

You can see the break down if you have someone go down and an ambulance is required - see who is in the way - who does what.
We had a fire ( toaster ) and the pastor kept on going ... really, smell smoke, fire alarms are going off and you wont stop?!

I like table top practices - buy a couple of games of Risk at garage sales
Don't have a large plan of facilities - use some painters tape, or some paper and a marker
Roll some dice to set the time
- is the event happen before, at the beginning, during communion, after, between?
- Where are the children - in the pews or in their classrooms? (often set by time)
- Where is the pastor - is this when someone else has the mic on the platform? (time)
What if you have a guest speaker - is this common in your church?
What this also buys you is the chance to roll play with plastic parts on a table.

Don't forget the parking lot - in our facility it is easy for people to leave and block access to the buildings by emergency services.


If you can get the leadership to practice a real event, Sing Praises!


Don't forget the building needs a plan for 168 hours a week, not just during worship.

Before you have firearms - have a plan (several) and have practiced those plans.
That is my recommendation.

 

[shep854]

At the church I attend, we have hired off-duty officers to be present, both uniformed and plain-clothes. Due to the large amount of traffic for services, there are also a number of on-duty officers for traffic assistance.