Cirillo On Point Shooting.

[Matthew Temkin]

Many anti point shooters talk about Cirillo's first gunfight with the Stakeout Squad, which involved some incredible rapid fire aimed shooting skills.
Naturally they use this to knock point shooting.
So I found this paragraph from the newly published book, JIM CIRILLO'S Tales Of The Stakeout Squad most interesting...

.."and when (Jeff) Cooper heard that I was in the Stakeout Squad, that I was in all of these gunfights, that was it--I became HIS hero.
Cooper started dragging me all over the place to give lectures and it was very odd. We were lecturing at a Western Montana police science college, he;s telling them, "Front sight front sight, sight, sight, sight..and I actually had to refute him. I'd say, "Of course if you are in the military and you are shooting beyond fifty yards, you'd better use your sights. But toe to toe, I don't know if you should use your sights. In law enforcement your problem isn't your front sight, it's your background. if you're looking at your front sight you can't see that some poor black guy is pulling a black wallet out of his back pocket, and you think he's pulling out a gun. This has happened time and time again."
Hmmmm..very interesting.
And Jim makes a great point on another benefit of focusing on the threat rather than the sights---visibility of the suspect.
Which is why a lot of my mentors taught me to focus on the BG's navel area when challenging or shooting either with or without the sights.

 

[contenderman]

There is no single correct way in close quarters. As separation increases the need for sighted fire increases.

Jim Cirillo was a natural shooter that only got better with training and practice. He also had the mental capabilities to prevail in a fight.

One should learn and practice both methods until they are instinctive to the situation at hand.

 

[csmkersh]

This old man think both point and aimed fire should be in everyone's repeater. Most shootings take place at 7 yards are less. At distances of 3 to 5 yards there is little reason to not use point shooting. It worked for Cirillo, Applegate and Fairbain. With practice, it can work for you.

​

 

[Pilgrim]

I remember another account of one of Cirillo's shootings where he took on three bandits in a crowded store. He took down all three with just his revolver.

When asked what he attributed to his amazing feat, he answered, "There are XXX number of horizontal striations on my front sight."

Pilgrim

 

[Rexster]

The shooting involving the three bandits was at quite long range, at least some of whom were hiding behind the clerk. Yes, you use your sights for that.

In all the debate about point shooting and sighted shooting, many lose sight of the fact that ALL shooting IS point shooting, it is just that sometimes it is a very good idea to focus on the sights, for various reasons, and sometimes it is a very good idea to focus on something else.

 

[Claude Clay]

practice point shooting till you are as good as your comfortable being and add that skill to your stratagy tool box.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

I met Jim at a police training conference a few years back where he was doing a presentation on the use of lasers.
He drew small circles on a wall and had us back off about 20 feet and "shoot" the laser from his nose point position.
We were all amazed how often the laser went right into that little circle!!
I also hunt in the same lodge as Jim's partner, Bill Allard, who also feels that both point and aimed fire are important skills to learn.

 

[06]

At last springs gathering we took a lady who had never shot a handgun and taught her to point shoot. We used 22's to cut costs. In about 20 minutes of shooting she was hitting consistantly at @ 20 feet while running back and forth. We then had her swap hands and start all over. We got rained out but she was doing good. This weekend we will do it again at the gathering. Hope to have her firing off hand and from behind her back and from different positions. Some people scoff at point shooting but I have seen folks hit quarters tossed into the air. I can really appreciate aimed fire for I used to fire competitively but point shooting abilities will probably get you by in most situations much better, wc

 

[Loosedhorse]

Jeff Cooper (may he rest) was not born looking at a front sight. There are some old pictures of him (which I cannot find on the internet) in the standard FBI crouch/Western shoot-from-the-hip stance (okay, okay--with a 1911; maybe he was born with that.)

Jeff Cooper, of course, organized the Leatherslap competitions at Big Bear Lake. It was a young guy named Jack Weaver who started winning the competiton regularly by using the sights on his revolver (whoodathunkit) who eventualy caused Cooper to concede that Weaver's technique was better.

(Sorry for the tiny photo--that's Weaver in the foreground; his shirtless--and hapless--opponent is using a no-sights technique. Cooper's head is visible, between the shooters.)

Likely apples and oranges, Cirillo and Cooper. Maybe Cirillo was just an excellent point shooter, by dint of gobs of practice or simple gift (it is said that Bill Jordan could regularly point-shoot an aspirin at a distance of a few feet, having practiced it a few thousand times). Or maybe the close-quarters shoot-outs of the Stake-Out Squad were cozy compared to the bobbing-balloon distances at Big Bear.

The usual recommendations of protected hold shooting at contact distances, point shooting out to 6 (?) ft, and some sort of sight picture beyond that seem fine to me.

 

[csmkersh]

LTC Cooper had to unlearn the standard Army and Marine Corp drill with the 1911. He was taught to keep the pistol, chamber empty in a flap holster, with loaded mag in the butt. Draw with right hand, rack the slide with the left and engage the target one handed.


​

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

IMO you need to learn both pointed and aimed fire, not one at the expense of the other.

 

[Old Fuff]

LTC Cooper had to unlearn the standard Army and Marine Corp drill with the 1911. He was taught to keep the pistol, chamber empty in a flap holster, with loaded mag in the butt. Draw with right hand, rack the slide with the left and engage the target one handed.

He had done that long before he retired from the Marines. At that time he carried cocked & locked, often in a half-breed shoulder holster. But the development of what he called the "modern technique" lay in the future.

 

[brownie0486]

Loosedhorse,

If you have software to expand and sharpen that photo, you'll see Weaver is not at line of sight and is looking over the gun. As he has more of the pistol in his peripheral vision, he's certainly going to be more accurate than his opponent at 30 feet, which is the distance those matches were held at.

Hip shooting at 30 feet is at the furthest distances one might use it normally. Weaver beat the hip shooters because he brought the gun further up into the visual plane which would automatically give him an advantage at 30 feet most of the time with most people.

If the matches had been at 10-15 feet, Weaver would have likely lost to the hip shooters like Thell Reed [ who may be the guy he's shooting against in that photo ]. I've actually had the honor of having Thell drive out from California to watch the "Sightless in Tucson" event Matt, 7677 and myself put on in Oct 05. He'd heard about the skills we were training others in from a long time friend of his who'd taken the training and was impressed enough to have Thell come out and watch what we were about.

Brownie

 

[David N]

You make some good points again.

Matthew,

Thanks for an interesting post.

As you may recall I taught myself point shooting from Col. Applegate's book BULLSEYES DON'T SHOOT BACK. Many don't realize that Applegate himself reccomended using the sights when the threat level, time, and distance allowed. He used 21 feet as a rule of thumb.

After checking to make sure I was holding my pistol in line with my forearm, keeping my eyes on the target, and raising my arm straight to my line of sight as Applegate taught I am often amazed to find the sights are automatically lined up, even though I hadn't been looking at them.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Brownie--

Not sure if that's Thell Reed, but I'm almost sure the white shirt and black hat that JW almost obscures belong to Eldon Carl.

Thank you for the clarification re: Mr. Weaver's use of sights. Still, it fits with my "some sort of sight picture" versus hip shooters.

My 6 ft may be too conservative for hip shooting distance, but 30 ft is certainly longer than I'd want to depend on. Could be that I'd get better with lots of practice, or maybe I'm just not that talented. But I do okay at 30 ft with a flash sight picture, and that's where I put my practice time.

Wish I'd been there to see your match!

LH

 

[brownie0486]

Loosedhorse,

Eastern Mass? I just moved to Az from that area after being there since 71. Should be back in your AO around May 09 to run the line at the annual machine gun shoot in Hanson [ used to be my duty till I moved ].

Thank you for the clarification re: Mr. Weaver's use of sights. Still, it fits with my "some sort of sight picture" versus hip shooters.

Everything is going to be situationally dependant on how much time I have to make the shot/s at any distance including 30 feet. I might use Fairbairn/Sykes 3/4 hip or Fairbairn/Sykes point shoulder, or maybe what Applegate taught if being reactive and times in short supply. I might also use Quick Kill one or two handed if I have the time to go proactive, or may start with the reactive skills and go proactive using a few different skills along the way while moving in some direction or another.

My 6 ft may be too conservative for hip shooting distance, but 30 ft is certainly longer than I'd want to depend on.

I agree with that thought process if I have a choice and time allows something else that would be a little more reliable at 30 feet for me. I know guys like Matt here can take that 1/2 hip out quite some distance much more reliably than myself so again, it's going to depend on ones skills, practice and ability to make the hits which determines what one should use if the time is short.

Brownie

 

[Matthew Temkin]

What Cooper is showing in that book is actually hip shooting.
Or what Fairbairn called half hip.
I too would be very uncomfortable trying that at 30 feet.
Fairbairn wrote that it should be used up to about 9 feet or so.