Class III firearms, NFA, AOW's, Destructive Devices

[deadly50bmg]

I have been looking into getting a Class III firearm pretty soon and have came across a few hurdles in the past that led me to believe that I could not own one of these. First, I went to my local Class III dealer here in Fort Worth and inquired about purchasing a Class III weapon. They informed me that it was impossible to do for the fact that I live in Tarrant County, they said that the chief law enforcement officer wouldn't sign for anyone. I thought this was absolutely absurd. I mean its our right to bear arms; shouldn't matter what kind. To clarify this issue for me I would like some info from you experienced guys about Class III's. Can a chief law enforcement officer turn you down if you meet the qualifications? Also what is a post sample? Dealer sample? Is it legal for a Class II manufacturer to assemble a new semi-auto weapon and convert it to full auto, then transfer it to us? does that weapon have to be pre-ban? What about destructive devices? what is the process on acquiring one of these? Also, I'm thinking that having explosive devices is pretty much impossible huh? i.e. H.E. Grenades for M203.

Thanks for the input guys.

Chris

 

[444]

" Can a chief law enforcement officer turn you down if you meet the qualifications? "
Yes. However, you can get around this by going the corporate route. You form a corporation and the corporation owns the weapons. No sign-off needed.

"Also what is a post sample? Dealer sample? "
A dealer sample is a non-transferable gun that is just what the name implies: a dealer sample. Since it is non-transferable, it is cheap: what the gun would cost if it wasn't for government interference in the free market. A law was passed in 1986 saying that from that point on, no new machine guns may be manufactured for sale to the general public. You can still buy the ones made before that, but not after that. I am not a dealer so I may be wrong, but I believe the dealer has to get a letter from a potentially eligible customer that they are interested in buying the weapon. The dealer can then buy the dealer sample. This is how dealers can have all the cool toys: they pay a tiny fraction of what we pay to own these samples.

"Is it legal for a Class II manufacturer to assemble a new semi-auto weapon and convert it to full auto, then transfer it to us?
Yes, No
He can make one, but not transfer it to the general public: see above.

"It is theoretically possible to get HE rounds for a M203. Each round would be considered a destructive device, a form 4 would be done for each round and a seperate $200 tax stamp would be required for each grenade. If you fired them, I believe you would have to advise ATFE that this registered DD was destroyed.

 

[RRTX]

Who told you that? Unless something has changed recently, the Tarrant County sheriff will sign and I've heard of people getting signoffs from the Fort Worth police if you live in FW city limits.

 

[deadly50bmg]

The guys up at Cheaper than dirt told me that. I spoke with a guy in Fairfield and he informed me that they are not allowed to do that. You can go around them??? I'm really not sure

 

[Chipperman]

If your local CLEO will not sign, many people will opt to go the corporate route, as explained above.

In some localities, you can get around the CLEO by going to the district attorney or a local Judge.

 

[deadly50bmg]

Thanks for the info guys, anyone else have anything that might help further my knowledge before I jump into this?

 

[Farnham]

This brought a question up for me.

Is there any NFA website that lists what counties/municipalities will or won't sign the Form 4 (it's Form 4 right?).

Anyone know if the Sheriff of Wilson County, TX will sign? (Long shot, but what the hell)

S/F

Farnham

 

[VirgilCaine]

I read on an NFA FAQ (can't remember whose, but it was a plain text thing) that other prominent authorities are acceptable instead of the Chief of Police/Sheriff. A judge of some sort was one, and I believe an FBI official was another.

It was also mentioned that you could call the state FBI office and ask them some questions, because they are supposed to know the state laws and are impartial and so will know their stuff.

 

[wdlsguy]

Thanks for the info guys, anyone else have anything that might help further my knowledge before I jump into this?

http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=14
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt

 

[CleverNickname]

Is there any NFA website that lists what counties/municipalities will or won't sign the Form 4 (it's Form 4 right?).

Anyone know if the Sheriff of Wilson County, TX will sign? (Long shot, but what the hell)

No such list exists that I know of, but I don't think it would be a great idea. Some CLEOs who might be hesitant to sign might decide to not sign at all if they knew their name was plastered all over the internet as someone who lets people have evil machine guns/sawn off shotguns/silencers for assassins.

Just call your Sheriff's office up and ask. If you get blown off, just start up an LLC and forego the signature/picture/fingerprint requirements. It's easy here in Texas.

 

[444]

Agreed
Just call an ask them. This isn't some deep dark mystery.

 

[-C4-]

I read on an NFA FAQ (can't remember whose, but it was a plain text thing) that other prominent authorities are acceptable instead of the Chief of Police/Sheriff. A judge of some sort was one, and I believe an FBI official was another.

It was also mentioned that you could call the state FBI office and ask them some questions, because they are supposed to know the state laws and are impartial and so will know their stuff.

In theory. Although if I recall many officials claimed that the AWB from '94 was going to make full-autos legal again.

-C4-

 

[gogetumnow]

Don't even ask the CLEO beforehand. Just go drop the form off as matter of business. On the form they are just signing to the fact that they have no info that your are a criminal. Don't make it into the issue of permission to have class 3 toys, but rather signing to the fact that you are not a criminal as the form reads.

When I had the county CLEO sign mine I just dropped it off to his secretary and told them I needed a signature on this application of the CLEO. She said she would give it to him. A week later I called her back and asked her if the sheriff had a chance to sign it. She said no, but she'd make sure he'd see it today and to come by tomorrow. I stopped by the next day and wala, signature.

Don't make it into a bigger deal than it needs to be.

 

[sigstroker]

That doesn't mean anything. If the CLEO is a guy that's made the decision not to sign off on Class III stuff, he won't sign.

BTW you can get HE 40mm grenades but they're a pain to deal with. You need an ordnance expert with you when you fire them because a lot of them don't go off and you can't leave live duds out there.

 

[oneshooter]

Many manufacturers got around the 1986 law by presenting the BATF with a list of serial numbers for weapons that they haven't built yet! They are building these guns, slowly, and enjoying the profits brought about by the high prices.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

 

[TexasRifleman]

I live in Tarrant County, Mansfield to be exact. Both my local PD chief and the Tarrant County sheriff have signed Form 1's and Form 4's for me in the past with no problems, so I'm not sure your dealer is with it.

 

[CleverNickname]

Many manufacturers got around the 1986 law by presenting the BATF with a list of serial numbers for weapons that they haven't built yet! They are building these guns, slowly, and enjoying the profits brought about by the high prices.

Then they would be idiots, because the next time they have a compliance inspection, the non-existant gun would be papered but they'd have no actual gun to show the agent doing the inspection. That doesn't go over too well with the ATF. I find it hard to believe that there are C2s that have gone almost 20 years without a compliance inspection.

Now mind you, some people TRIED to do this, and some of those no doubt succeeded, but any who did succeed would have long since manufactured the gun, because of the forementioned "problem" of inspections.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Many manufacturers got around the 1986 law by presenting the BATF with a list of serial numbers for weapons that they haven't built yet! They are building these guns, slowly, and enjoying the profits brought about by the high prices.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

That's not exactly how that worked. What a lot of folks did was manufacture a bare receiver, and register that. Then come back later and do the finish machining. That's why you see so many Vector Uzi's etc "NIB".

A blank receiver, unmachined, could have been registered, and that's what happened. So somewhere there is a large stack of stamped steel with numbers on it. Someday they will be MACs or Uzis.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I read somewhere long ago that ATF looked closely at manufactures after the ban started and ruled there had to be an actual firearm made before the ban to be legal. A serial number of a piece of flat steel wouldn't cut it.

What the manufactures did do once it became obvious the ban was coming was to start making registered auto sears 24/7. Since ATF considers the sear to be a machinegun by itself, they got caught by their own red tape. That is why ATF came out with another wonderful ruling. You cannot take a semi-auto receiver and make any changes to it in order for it to accept registered machinegun parts. They claim that while your sear may be a machinegun by itself, drilling wholes into a receiver to make it fit constitutes "making a new" machinegun.

 

[CleverNickname]

You cannot take a semi-auto receiver and make any changes to it in order for it to accept registered machinegun parts. They claim that while your sear may be a machinegun by itself, drilling wholes into a receiver to make it fit constitutes "making a new" machinegun.

Milling a semi-auto AR lower so that it can fit an RDIAS is kosher. So is drilling an FNC receiver for a registered S&H FNC sear.

 

[sigstroker]

Many manufacturers got around the 1986 law by presenting the BATF with a list of serial numbers for weapons that they haven't built yet! They are building these guns, slowly, and enjoying the profits brought about by the high prices.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

Yeah right. Urban legend BS.

After the 86 law was passed, there was understandably a flood of new registrations in order to beat the deadline. The ATF set out to verify them all to prevent any funny business. There had been a bunch of M-11/9's registered that weren't yet built. The factory worked 24x7 getting the flats stamped and numbered. By the time ATF got through checking registrations, all those receivers did exist. They were long since made into guns and sold. The Uzi's were made by Group Industries who folded up and they were eventually bought by Vector, who completed them and sold them all. At most, they have some Mini Uzi's left. There is no secret stash of unfinished MAC or Uzi receivers hidden in a warehouse waiting to be built into guns.

 

[VirgilCaine]

BTW you can get HE 40mm grenades but they're a pain to deal with. You need an ordnance expert with you when you fire them because a lot of them don't go off and you can't leave live duds out there.

It's not enough that they're so expensive, there's a signficant percentage of DUDS?

 

[Werewolf]

Many manufacturers got around the 1986 law by presenting the BATF with a list of serial numbers for weapons that they haven't built yet! They are building these guns, slowly, and enjoying the profits brought about by the high prices.

Me'thinks that someone put a little too much credence in what they read in Unintended Consequences by John Ross...

Good Book.
Great Read.

But much of the history in it must be taken with a grain of salt. The seeds of truth are there for sure but much poetic license was taken in their cultivation.

 

[sigstroker]

It's not enough that they're so expensive, there's a signficant percentage of DUDS?

Unless you can guarantee you won't hit soft dirt or a bush with one.

 

[Kenneth Lew]

Milling a semi-auto AR lower so that it can fit an RDIAS is kosher. So is drilling an FNC receiver for a registered S&H FNC sear.

Drilling a semi-auto AR lower now for a RDIAS is so illegal. Not familiar with the FNCs though.