ctdonath
Member
I obtained an AOW - nothing about "inspection on demand sans warrant". While not a MG, it is in the same category with same paperwork.
Class III MG's - Your thoughts?
- Thread starter Nick1911
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Notch
Member
If you have the BATF even slightly interested in you, you have bigger things to worry about than a NFA inspection! If "they" wanted to come into your house, its going to happen regardless of whether or not you have firearm that needs a tax stamp. They are expensive to shoot... But so is everything else, if ya shoot it AS MUCH as ya want to
They are great fun and a good investment too. Ya.. ATF could suddenly cease the whole Auto scene, or the Laws could be knocked down... But maybe an alien will land on earth someday and teach us how to turn lead into gold.... Or the stock market could crash...
Or rent reform...
...(sorry!) Anyways, the fact that you CAN own one is good 'nuf reason to go for it in my book.....I cant afford to shoot my .44 everytime I go to the range...But when I do, I'm sure glad I have it!
Exercize your rights, or lose them!
They are great fun and a good investment too. Ya.. ATF could suddenly cease the whole Auto scene, or the Laws could be knocked down... But maybe an alien will land on earth someday and teach us how to turn lead into gold.... Or the stock market could crash... Or rent reform... ...(sorry!) Anyways, the fact that you CAN own one is good 'nuf reason to go for it in my book.....I cant afford to shoot my .44 everytime I go to the range...But when I do, I'm sure glad I have it!Exercize your rights, or lose them!
rock jock
Member
I've shot several FA weapons and I can tell you that the thrill lasts only as long as the bullets are going down range. After that, you realize rather quickly that you have just blown through about $6 in about 3 seconds. Woohoo! I would rahter spend that money on making some really awesome SA ARs. Personally, I wouldn't own a NFA FA gun unless '86 ban ended, and even then I doubt I would shoot it much.
I have a buddy who is a pretty serious collector of Class III weapons. He shoots them regularly, but not a lot. Wants to preserve their value.
He says they have out-performed every other investment he has.
HOWEVER, he says there is a very real risk that they may wind up being worth zero at some point, either because:
-Class IIIs are made illegal and must be turned in. Or
-Class III regulations are loosened, and new ones can be manufactured/imported.
Either scenario reduces their value a lot. So, ya pays your money and ya takes your chances.
He says they have out-performed every other investment he has.
HOWEVER, he says there is a very real risk that they may wind up being worth zero at some point, either because:
-Class IIIs are made illegal and must be turned in. Or
-Class III regulations are loosened, and new ones can be manufactured/imported.
Either scenario reduces their value a lot. So, ya pays your money and ya takes your chances.
"I understand that the paperwork is pretty intrusive."
Why guess ? Here is an Adobe Acrobat file of a Form 4. Download it and see what it is. It is two pages and is basically like the 4473 you fill out everytime you buy any gun from a dealer. If you were buying a machine gun, you would just fill in the blanks on your computer and print it out. You could be done in 5-10 minutes. However, one little detail. You have to have the gun to fill out the form 4 since you need it's serial number.
http://www.titleii.com/pdf/032804Form4.pdf
Why guess ? Here is an Adobe Acrobat file of a Form 4. Download it and see what it is. It is two pages and is basically like the 4473 you fill out everytime you buy any gun from a dealer. If you were buying a machine gun, you would just fill in the blanks on your computer and print it out. You could be done in 5-10 minutes. However, one little detail. You have to have the gun to fill out the form 4 since you need it's serial number.
http://www.titleii.com/pdf/032804Form4.pdf
DrDremel
Member
When you own a machinegun you do not give up any rights to your privacy. I own one and it is not that big of a deal. If I had to pay what they are going for now, I would probably pass to tell you the truth.
MeekandMild
Member
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2002
- Messages
- 1,877
To tell the truth, FA is just like SA, just more expensive. Best fun shooting I ever had was with a single shot .22.
There is no Federal requirement for the owner/purchaser of a machinegun or other NFA item to comply with any special storage provisions or to submit to any warrantless "inspection" of anything. Most people owning valuable guns would have a safe, but I knew one farmer who kept a Thompson M1928A1 behind the kitchen door, loaded 50 round drum in place. Said he just wanted it handy.
No NFA item owner I know has ever been harassed, bothered, visited or even called by any federal agency. The only time that could happen is if a gun registered to that person turned up in the wrong place at the wrong time.
State laws differ; some states require yearly re-registration, others ban machineguns and/or other items altogether.
Jim
No NFA item owner I know has ever been harassed, bothered, visited or even called by any federal agency. The only time that could happen is if a gun registered to that person turned up in the wrong place at the wrong time.
State laws differ; some states require yearly re-registration, others ban machineguns and/or other items altogether.
Jim
MrPink
Member
I own a few class 3 weapons and generally they are a hoot:
Norrell 10/22 auto sear - turns a stock Ruger 10/22 into a 1300RPM machine gun. Big grins, cheap to shoot. Given all the accessories for the 10/22 you can make a "race gun" or keep it looking like a stock sleeper. My favorite setup is using a Volquartsen carbon fiber THM barrel with the muzzle brake, Aimpoint M2 optic. This gun easily sees 15-20k rounds down range each year. John Norrell is releasing NOS conversions for $6,500.
Colt M16A2 - set it up with a commando shorty and M4 uppers. Add on as much cool M16/AR15 accessories you want: optics, rails, stocks, slings, BUIS, whatever. 100 round CMAG dumps are a thing of glory. Running a shorty is fun: LOUD, FLASHY and FAST.
Federal 55grain ammo runs about $200/1000. Problem is an M16 will start around $11k (RR conversion) to $16k (Colt A2).
Ruger AC556 - I have a shorty folder so it is almost as fun as the M16 commando. Runs a little slower, but flashy and loud. Accessory options are more limited than the M16, but I use an Ultimak fore-rail with an Aimpoint M2. Ashley ghost ring sight to open up the picture. Only problem is it runs a little hot. 3 30 round mag dumps and you'll need to set it aside.
Major bonus is price: AC556s run $4,500-6,500 depending on grade and configuration. And as anti-gun as Ruger is they will still provide factory service and refurbishment of your gun. Try that with your Colt.
Vector Arms UZI - OK, I bought when they first came out for $2,700 and its OK for that price. But for $5,500-6,000 I'd rather have the Ruger. Heavy open bolt gun, little 9mm pop. However add a Gemtech Mossad suppressor and you have a very quiet and integral setup.
Norrell 10/22 auto sear - turns a stock Ruger 10/22 into a 1300RPM machine gun. Big grins, cheap to shoot. Given all the accessories for the 10/22 you can make a "race gun" or keep it looking like a stock sleeper. My favorite setup is using a Volquartsen carbon fiber THM barrel with the muzzle brake, Aimpoint M2 optic. This gun easily sees 15-20k rounds down range each year. John Norrell is releasing NOS conversions for $6,500.
Colt M16A2 - set it up with a commando shorty and M4 uppers. Add on as much cool M16/AR15 accessories you want: optics, rails, stocks, slings, BUIS, whatever. 100 round CMAG dumps are a thing of glory. Running a shorty is fun: LOUD, FLASHY and FAST.
Federal 55grain ammo runs about $200/1000. Problem is an M16 will start around $11k (RR conversion) to $16k (Colt A2).
Ruger AC556 - I have a shorty folder so it is almost as fun as the M16 commando. Runs a little slower, but flashy and loud. Accessory options are more limited than the M16, but I use an Ultimak fore-rail with an Aimpoint M2. Ashley ghost ring sight to open up the picture. Only problem is it runs a little hot. 3 30 round mag dumps and you'll need to set it aside.
Major bonus is price: AC556s run $4,500-6,500 depending on grade and configuration. And as anti-gun as Ruger is they will still provide factory service and refurbishment of your gun. Try that with your Colt.
Vector Arms UZI - OK, I bought when they first came out for $2,700 and its OK for that price. But for $5,500-6,000 I'd rather have the Ruger. Heavy open bolt gun, little 9mm pop. However add a Gemtech Mossad suppressor and you have a very quiet and integral setup.
LeadPumper
Member
Worth it?
Very personnal and subjective question. Is a Rolex worth it? Is a Porsche?
How far up the ladder do you go before something 'isn't worth it'. Everyone's going to jump off at a different place. I've got friends on both ends, one fellow has a new yellow Porsche Boxter in the garage for 'play', and a new Toyota Land Cruiser in the drive for 'everyday use', another friend who is quite content with his '86 Chevy Monte Carlo.
Machine Guns are very much like this.
Do I own one? Yup. An IMI 9mm UZI converted to FA, a drop in closed bolt (D&D Sales @ 1100 RPM), and a Cienar can.
Is it fun? Abso-friggin-lutley! Nothing puts asmile on your face like full-auto!
Was it expensive? And how, 4K for the gun & can + sales tax, 2X Fed tax ($400), mags, ammo...
Is it worth it? It's a toy. An expensive toy, but only to be considered if you have extra $$$ to throw around.
I'm not sorry I bought it, but I won't be buying any more.
-LeadPumper
Very personnal and subjective question. Is a Rolex worth it? Is a Porsche?
How far up the ladder do you go before something 'isn't worth it'. Everyone's going to jump off at a different place. I've got friends on both ends, one fellow has a new yellow Porsche Boxter in the garage for 'play', and a new Toyota Land Cruiser in the drive for 'everyday use', another friend who is quite content with his '86 Chevy Monte Carlo.
Machine Guns are very much like this.
Do I own one? Yup. An IMI 9mm UZI converted to FA, a drop in closed bolt (D&D Sales @ 1100 RPM), and a Cienar can.
Is it fun? Abso-friggin-lutley! Nothing puts asmile on your face like full-auto!
Was it expensive? And how, 4K for the gun & can + sales tax, 2X Fed tax ($400), mags, ammo...
Is it worth it? It's a toy. An expensive toy, but only to be considered if you have extra $$$ to throw around.
I'm not sorry I bought it, but I won't be buying any more.
-LeadPumper
Carl N. Brown
Member
NFA pluses and minuses
I passed up a Reising M50 for $150 + $200 tax in 1985.
I think I could buy it now for $3000 + $200 tax today.
If the 19 May 1986 Hughes Amendment to the FOPA is ever
repealed, you better bet the folks who have invested in NFA
weapons will insist that post-Hughes weapons will be stamped
like the M1 carbine re-imports to reduce their collectors value
to preserve the pre-Hughes guns' worth.
The ATF has a form that you must file if you travel across
a state line with a NFA gun to a show or shoot meet.
I wonder if anyone has checked to see if the sponsors of
legislation that raises the value or interest in "black guns"
are invested in someway. Did Al Capone give kickback to
Carrie Nation?
I passed up a Reising M50 for $150 + $200 tax in 1985.
I think I could buy it now for $3000 + $200 tax today.
If the 19 May 1986 Hughes Amendment to the FOPA is ever
repealed, you better bet the folks who have invested in NFA
weapons will insist that post-Hughes weapons will be stamped
like the M1 carbine re-imports to reduce their collectors value
to preserve the pre-Hughes guns' worth.
The ATF has a form that you must file if you travel across
a state line with a NFA gun to a show or shoot meet.
I wonder if anyone has checked to see if the sponsors of
legislation that raises the value or interest in "black guns"
are invested in someway. Did Al Capone give kickback to
Carrie Nation?
SavageDoc45
Member
Why thinking so small? The true value of automatic weapons is in crew served, the reapers of the battlefield. An FA AR-15 is a toy, a MAG-58 is a killing tool. We need M2-HBs, MINIMIs, DhsKs, 1919s, M-60s, MG-42s, M242s, Brens, Lewis, etc...
Once we have those squared away, then we need mortars, rockets, guided missiles, howitzers...
Ok, so I wouldn't kick an FA thompson out of the safe, but the purpose of the 2A is to guarantee the other ammendments, not to mention the constituton itself. No offense to the hunters and collectors, but ya'lls missin' the point.
Once we get the sporting clause removed, we gotta get to work on the NFA, 'cause I don't wanna pay too much for a machinegun
Once we have those squared away, then we need mortars, rockets, guided missiles, howitzers...
Ok, so I wouldn't kick an FA thompson out of the safe, but the purpose of the 2A is to guarantee the other ammendments, not to mention the constituton itself. No offense to the hunters and collectors, but ya'lls missin' the point.
Once we get the sporting clause removed, we gotta get to work on the NFA, 'cause I don't wanna pay too much for a machinegun
B
boofus
Guest
I felt it was worth it. The artificially inflated prices from FOPA sucks. Loading magazines all the time is tedious. The transfer process is frustrating...
But defying sarah brady & michael moore with my full auto deathray spitting hip-spraying baby killing machinegun that gets even more 'thrusts per squeeze' than 'assault weapons'... that's priceless.
Since my corporation owns my NFA weapons the transfer/background check process wasn't very intrusive at all. Just sent in copies of the Articles of Organization from the TX Sec of State and my $200 and that's it.
But defying sarah brady & michael moore with my full auto deathray spitting hip-spraying baby killing machinegun that gets even more 'thrusts per squeeze' than 'assault weapons'... that's priceless.
Since my corporation owns my NFA weapons the transfer/background check process wasn't very intrusive at all. Just sent in copies of the Articles of Organization from the TX Sec of State and my $200 and that's it.
And if you can't pay to play with the full auto stuff, suppresors are a whole lot of fun, and are relatively inexpensive. An excellent .22 can will not set you back that much, and it is a blast to shoot with out ear plugs. A good .223 or pistol can be had for a reasonable amount as well.
I love FA, but for me the funnest NFA stuff has to be suppresors.
There is a lot of internet heresay floating around about warrentless searches for NFA holders, but I've never heard a reliable first hand account of one.
I love FA, but for me the funnest NFA stuff has to be suppresors.
There is a lot of internet heresay floating around about warrentless searches for NFA holders, but I've never heard a reliable first hand account of one.
"And if you can't pay to play with the full auto stuff, suppresors are a whole lot of fun...."
Suppressors are a whole lot of fun anyway. To me, they are a heck of a lot more fun than FA. I bought four suppressors so far this year and would like at least three more. I bought a integrally suppressed Ruger MK.II .22 pistol, and a integrally suppressed Ruger 10/22 .22 Rifle (AAC Phoniex pistol and rifle). Then I bought an AAC M4-2000 suppressor; which is a quick detach .223 suppressor. I am going to use it on my AR15s but you could use it on any .223. And finally I bought the LRM M-169 Suppressed 9mm AR15 Upper. I dont have any of them yet: they are all pending with ATF.
I am considering a 9mm handgun can, a .308 rifle can, and a .22LR muzzle can for the rest of my .22s.
Suppressors are a whole lot of fun anyway. To me, they are a heck of a lot more fun than FA. I bought four suppressors so far this year and would like at least three more. I bought a integrally suppressed Ruger MK.II .22 pistol, and a integrally suppressed Ruger 10/22 .22 Rifle (AAC Phoniex pistol and rifle). Then I bought an AAC M4-2000 suppressor; which is a quick detach .223 suppressor. I am going to use it on my AR15s but you could use it on any .223. And finally I bought the LRM M-169 Suppressed 9mm AR15 Upper. I dont have any of them yet: they are all pending with ATF.
I am considering a 9mm handgun can, a .308 rifle can, and a .22LR muzzle can for the rest of my .22s.
M2 Carbine
member
The way the prices of FA guns keeps going up it won't be too long before they are a play toy only for the rich.
Buy one while you can.
I've had a M2 Carbine conversion kit for over 20 years.
Never had a call from the ATF or anyone else.
I don't shoot FA a lot anymore, so when I do I usually call the Sheriff and tell him if someone south of town calls about WW3 it's probably me.
Maybe saves the Sheriff a trip, although he probably wouldn't bother anyhow.
The last time we had a little shoot the Sheriff didn't get one call.
Buy one while you can.
I've had a M2 Carbine conversion kit for over 20 years.
Never had a call from the ATF or anyone else.
I don't shoot FA a lot anymore, so when I do I usually call the Sheriff and tell him if someone south of town calls about WW3 it's probably me.
Maybe saves the Sheriff a trip, although he probably wouldn't bother anyhow.
The last time we had a little shoot the Sheriff didn't get one call.
TheOtherOne
Member
Don't forget ATF form 5330.20 and FBI-258LE. Get CLEO sig, make sure you don't make a mistake anywhere and then wait about six months. Of course, all that is after paying the $200 bribe.
TheOtherOne, and all of that doesn't take very long in the grand scheme of things. Plus if you talk to you local NFA dealer they will help you out with the steps, and probably also be able to hook you up with the correct people in your local law enforcement office.
The $200 sucks. In 1934 that was especially bad, but in 2005 that is about how much you are going to spend on a few minutes of belt fed full auto anyway.
I think a lot of people have this idea (especially in online circles) that NFA stuff is some super mysterious voodoo dangerous ATF list massive complicated and expensive thing. Of course I agree that any intrusion on our rights is a bad thing, but it isn't nearly as horrific as some folks on the internet make it out to be.
444, I'm with you on suppresors. I'm working on a really cool package deal right now. It will be a good and affordable way for people to jump into the NFA game. Still have many details to iron out, but my goal is to have a suppresed .22 pistol, ready to go, that with the $200 tax stamp will cost about the same or less as any quality pistol.
The $200 sucks. In 1934 that was especially bad, but in 2005 that is about how much you are going to spend on a few minutes of belt fed full auto anyway.
I think a lot of people have this idea (especially in online circles) that NFA stuff is some super mysterious voodoo dangerous ATF list massive complicated and expensive thing. Of course I agree that any intrusion on our rights is a bad thing, but it isn't nearly as horrific as some folks on the internet make it out to be.
444, I'm with you on suppresors. I'm working on a really cool package deal right now. It will be a good and affordable way for people to jump into the NFA game. Still have many details to iron out, but my goal is to have a suppresed .22 pistol, ready to go, that with the $200 tax stamp will cost about the same or less as any quality pistol.
I formed a LLC because getting LEO signoff was not going to happen where I live. This allows me to send the forms without the fingerprints, photos & signature. My longest wait so far was 62 days for an Uzi & Suppressor. My shortest time was 37 days door to door on a SBS I got back in march. Filling out a form 4 for my LLC is less difficult and less time consuming than filling out a 4473.
You would be suprised how many people think you have to get special licenses or pay $200 per year and all sorts of crazy things. Even gun people have terrible misconceptions about what it takes to buy NFA. Overall, the toughest part of the whole process is the waiting..... which is why its always good to have a couple in transfer, that way you are always getting something at regular intervals.
"I think a lot of people have this idea (especially in online circles) that NFA stuff is some super mysterious voodoo dangerous ATF list massive complicated and expensive thing. "
I have gotten into heated arguments on this board more than once trying to dispel this myth that is repeated over and over in every one of these threads by someone who doesn't own any NFA weapons and who has never gone through the process of buying one.
I have NEVER heard anyone that has actually bought an NFA weapon say that it was some kind of ordeal.
Because it isn't.
No matter how many times someone on the internet tries to make it out to be.
It isn't.
I have six applications submitted to ATF right now for NFA items. I have another one that is going out this week and I need to do two more ASAP. I also currently own a machine gun. I know what it takes to buy an NFA weapon. I have been through the process several times. However, if you still choose to believe it is a big deal, I guess I there is nothing I can do about it.
I have gotten into heated arguments on this board more than once trying to dispel this myth that is repeated over and over in every one of these threads by someone who doesn't own any NFA weapons and who has never gone through the process of buying one.
I have NEVER heard anyone that has actually bought an NFA weapon say that it was some kind of ordeal.
Because it isn't.
No matter how many times someone on the internet tries to make it out to be.
It isn't.
I have six applications submitted to ATF right now for NFA items. I have another one that is going out this week and I need to do two more ASAP. I also currently own a machine gun. I know what it takes to buy an NFA weapon. I have been through the process several times. However, if you still choose to believe it is a big deal, I guess I there is nothing I can do about it.
heypete
Member
What's the deal with suppressors? Can new suppressors for civilian use still be manufactured and sold with the proper paperwork, or are they like MGs that can't be made/sold to us mere mortals after '86?
I lack a) the time, b) the money (only a $5k limit on the Visa...and far less than that in cash right now), c) a place to shoot, and d) the desire to fend off the screaming hordes of friends who want to shoot an MG I might own. That, and living in California, NFA sign-offs are legal only for bona fide movie studios.
If I move out of state, however, getting an auto-sear and other components to legally convert an AR-15 or other common gun that I own (I lack an AR-15 now, alas, due to California law) to full auto for far less than the price of a full-fledged MG is a possibility. The '86 ban applies to auto-sears as well, right?
I am, however, curious about suppressors...it would be an interesting thing indeed to get one for my 10/22 or other firearms. Are modern-production ones legal for civilians?
I lack a) the time, b) the money (only a $5k limit on the Visa...and far less than that in cash right now), c) a place to shoot, and d) the desire to fend off the screaming hordes of friends who want to shoot an MG I might own. That, and living in California, NFA sign-offs are legal only for bona fide movie studios.
If I move out of state, however, getting an auto-sear and other components to legally convert an AR-15 or other common gun that I own (I lack an AR-15 now, alas, due to California law) to full auto for far less than the price of a full-fledged MG is a possibility. The '86 ban applies to auto-sears as well, right?
I am, however, curious about suppressors...it would be an interesting thing indeed to get one for my 10/22 or other firearms. Are modern-production ones legal for civilians?
Yes, new civillian legal suppresors are built every day. You still need to do the NFA paperwork and approval process, and you still have to deal with local laws, but you can get a new suppresor for a very reasonable amount of money.
saltydog
Member
There is to much "negative propaganda" about full auto ownership. Granted you must have a secure place of storage for your weapons but heck, that is also common sense. Once you receive your tax stamp (a one time fee) and approval from ATF, the weapon(s) are now considered legal ownership (private property, your property like anything else you legally own) and considered -> "any other weapon!" The articles are yours for life!
ATF can only inspect "Dealers" --> (FFL, ClassIII, etc.) on demand.
Private ownership is a completely different matter.
about full auto ownership. Granted you must have a secure place of storage for your weapons but heck, that is also common sense. Once you receive your tax stamp (a one time fee) and approval from ATF, the weapon(s) are now considered legal ownership (private property, your property like anything else you legally own) and considered -> "any other weapon!" The articles are yours for life!ATF can only inspect "Dealers" --> (FFL, ClassIII, etc.) on demand.
Private ownership is a completely different matter.
M2 Carbine
member
Zrex
I formed a LLC because getting LEO signoff was not going to happen where I live. This allows me to send the forms without the fingerprints, photos & signature. My longest wait so far was 62 days for an Uzi & Suppressor. My shortest time was 37 days door to door on a SBS I got back in march. Filling out a form 4 for my LLC is less difficult and less time consuming than filling out a 4473.
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I might be interested in going the LLC route for another MG and possibly for some other small finical matters.
Can you direct me to some info about forming a LLC, in Texas, that a non lawyer might understand?
I haven't approached the current Sheriff about a signature, but a past Sheriff, I think, was in with the dope runners so I'd kind of just like to stay away from the the CLEO.
I formed a LLC because getting LEO signoff was not going to happen where I live. This allows me to send the forms without the fingerprints, photos & signature. My longest wait so far was 62 days for an Uzi & Suppressor. My shortest time was 37 days door to door on a SBS I got back in march. Filling out a form 4 for my LLC is less difficult and less time consuming than filling out a 4473.
----------------------------------------------------------
I might be interested in going the LLC route for another MG and possibly for some other small finical matters.
Can you direct me to some info about forming a LLC, in Texas, that a non lawyer might understand?
I haven't approached the current Sheriff about a signature, but a past Sheriff, I think, was in with the dope runners so I'd kind of just like to stay away from the the CLEO.
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