Classic .32 ACP Pistols

[Wisco]

I'm the op - apparently I was logged on my girlfriend's THR on our shared iPad... Apologies for the possible confusion. This post was mine:

There's some great mentions here and some great info. That's why I originally posted!

Thanks so far and I look forward to seeing and hearing aboutr more cool .32 pistols. They seem to have been 100 years ago what 9mms are now - very prevalent and used for everything from pocket carry to police duty.

 

[kBob]

.32 was popular from the moment S&W made their first .32 Rim Fire revolver.

Keep in mind that Colt's biggest selling Percussion revolver was the 1849 model in .31 caliber and a host of other folks sold .31 percussion revolvers as well. (Yes, even counting Government contracts for bigger revolvers)

Once S&W started making the top break revolvers in .32 S&W Center Fire (We call it .32 Short sometimes) it became if anything more popular.

Consider that while Browning was developing the .32 ACP cartridge that a number of countries had 8 mm or 7.65mm or even 7.5 mm revolvers and early Semi autos.

Many police carried .32 revolvers in the late 1800's and even into the early 1900s.

Browning's little 71 grain FMJ was in the middle of the pack in the then state of the art board penetration. It had relatively high velocity.

So it was the equal of many military pistols.....and could be in a small pistol with more than six shots.

European police forces still issued .32 ACP pistols at least into the 1980's.

My guess is it was so popular because it fit in guns small enough to actually carry and it was considered good enough in terms of power

Without LEAA computer models of the 1970's, gel tests and Marshal and Sanow numbers shooters just did not know any better and shootees did not know they had been shot with an ineffective caliber.....

Sorry had to throw that last paragraph in for giggles.

I wrote a paper on this for my old webpage but could not find it, sorry.

-kBob

 

[rodinal220]

Dreyse M1907

 

[Nom de Forum]

.32 was popular from the moment S&W made their first .32 Rim Fire revolver.

Keep in mind that Colt's biggest selling Percussion revolver was the 1849 model in .31 caliber and a host of other folks sold .31 percussion revolvers as well. (Yes, even counting Government contracts for bigger revolvers)

Once S&W started making the top break revolvers in .32 S&W Center Fire (We call it .32 Short sometimes) it became if anything more popular.

Consider that while Browning was developing the .32 ACP cartridge that a number of countries had 8 mm or 7.65mm or even 7.5 mm revolvers and early Semi autos.

Many police carried .32 revolvers in the late 1800's and even into the early 1900s.

Browning's little 71 grain FMJ was in the middle of the pack in the then state of the art board penetration. It had relatively high velocity.

So it was the equal of many military pistols.....and could be in a small pistol with more than six shots.

European police forces still issued .32 ACP pistols at least into the 1980's.

My guess is it was so popular because it fit in guns small enough to actually carry and it was considered good enough in terms of power

Without LEAA computer models of the 1970's, gel tests and Marshal and Sanow numbers shooters just did not know any better and shootees did not know they had been shot with an ineffective caliber.....

Sorry had to throw that last paragraph in for giggles.

I wrote a paper on this for my old webpage but could not find it, sorry.

-kBob

kBob I sure hope you can find that paper from you old website as I would enjoy reading it.

You statement “My guess is it was so popular because it fit in guns small enough to actually carry and it was considered good enough in terms of power.” is I think dead on. Isn’t this the reason today why the 9mm is so popular? It works just as well in a 12.7 ounce Kel-Tec PF-9 as it does in a 33.6 ounce Beretta M9.

I have been think about some of the early “classic” .32s that were sometimes referred to as pocket pistols. Some of them are huge compared to what we today would consider a pocket pistol. It was only when I started to think about the men’s clothing of the early 20th century that it made sense. Back then clothing was much heavier and looser tailored. The pant belt line was also considerably higher than today and the pants pockets much larger. Suit coats were also worn much more. These old pocket pistols would not have been considered to large for pocket carry.

 

[HisSoldier]

I like Searle's 1907 Savage.

I know there was no gun called the 1907 Searle, but I like giving him credit for a nice design with a novel twist. (grin)

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Nom,

First you stated (based on some unknown source) that the FN 1903 and the Colt 1903 "are not the same design and are derived from different prototypes." Then you say that Browning used the FN 1903 "as a starting point". Which is it?

Your concept of what happened is a bit faulty in other ways. Browning never made design or engineering drawings, and it is very unlikely that Colt's engineers ever saw FN's drawings. Browning worked in steel, not paper, and certainly he could scale down a part without a ton of paperwork. In fact, companies of that time rarely made what we would call engineering drawings. They took the inventor's prototypes, had the model shop make up pre-production guns, worked out the bugs, made master and production gauges, and set up the tooling to make copies of the final model shop version.

One of the problems in WWII, when the government contracted Remington-Rand and Ithaca to produce the M1911A1 pistol, was that Colt had no engineering drawings. The government had to provide the old M1911 drawings from the time it made that pistol at Springfield, and alter them as necessary.

Jim

 

[Nom de Forum]

Hi, Nom,

First you stated (based on some unknown source) that the FN 1903 and the Colt 1903 "are not the same design and are derived from different prototypes." Then you say that Browning used the FN 1903 "as a starting point". Which is it?

Your concept of what happened is a bit faulty in other ways. Browning never made design or engineering drawings, and it is very unlikely that Colt's engineers ever saw FN's drawings. Browning worked in steel, not paper, and certainly he could scale down a part without a ton of paperwork. In fact, companies of that time rarely made what we would call engineering drawings. They took the inventor's prototypes, had the model shop make up pre-production guns, worked out the bugs, made master and production gauges, and set up the tooling to make copies of the final model shop version.

One of the problems in WWII, when the government contracted Remington-Rand and Ithaca to produce the M1911A1 pistol, was that Colt had no engineering drawings. The government had to provide the old M1911 drawings from the time it made that pistol at Springfield, and alter them as necessary.

Jim

Hi Jim,

I guess it all depends on how you define starting point. For me starting point does not mean prototype. A starting point is where inspiration comes from to build a prototype. I never said Colt’s saw FN’s drawings. As I posted previously I am not expert on this subject and I made only a guess at how the process occurred to derive the Colt 1903 based on what I have read. However I think you just confirmed what I posted about different prototypes. Browning creates a prototype of a scaled down and somewhat modified FN M1903, then Colt’s did as you wrote “took the inventor’s prototypes, had the model shop make up pre-production guns, worked out the bugs, made master and production gauges, and set up tooling to make copies of the final shop version”. That final shop version is the new Colt M1903 and not a copy of the FN M1903 that was the stating point that inspired the Colt M1903 prototype. If you want to call the Colt M1903 a copy of the FN M1903 fine. Whatever you call these pistols neither is correctly designated a Browning M1903 .32 Auto Colt Pistol.

 

[Ignition Override]

If I knew how to post, my Sauer 38H (only handgun owned) would be depicted here.

Fairly identical to its "sons", the modern Sig 230 & 232, one of which will be my first carry gun (after 30+ hours of research).
Can anybody there "post" a photo of the 38H?

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Borrowed from The Web for reference:

Nice looking pistol.

VooDoo

 

[tark]

HEY! has everybody forgotten those cute little squirt gun lookin' Astra 300s in 32acp. Wish I still had mine. It fed everything, could hit oranges at seven yards and could toss empties so far away you would never find them. It could also put an eye out if you wer'nt careful when field stripping it.

 

[damienph]

Armi Galesi Model 9

This is my only .32ACP, a 1954 Armi Galesi Model 9 with two mags and original holster. I am guessing that it was some sort of police issue (Italian?) It appears that it was carried quite a bit but rarely fired. The holster has certainly been opened and closed alot.

It is a decent shooter and in very good condition, my photography skills aren't that good but it actually has 95%+ finish remaining.

 

[Cokeman]

I have a cz 27 made in Prague 1939 with the Nazi stamps.
Very accurate. Pitted badly. Fun to shoot.
Careful as many older 32s may not have a drop safety.

Got pictures?

 

[Cornhusker77]

Here's a couple of mine

H&R Self Loading .32

CZ 70

 

[Waveski]

My prized .32 : Femaru. Built in Hungary (by FEG) in 1943 under Nazi contract as a Luftwaffe sidearm. The Nazi acceptance stamp can be seen on the trigger guard.

Looks like a miniature 1911.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think one reason the various .32s, (also .22. .25, .380, .38 S&W) both auto and revolver, were so popular is that not only were they compact and controllable; in those days before antibiotics, "Nobody wants to get shot with a _____." was not just a Snarky Internet Response, it was life and death.

 

[kBob]

I once knew a writer winner of the Amber award that carried an FEG 37 in an ankle holster.

My one shooting experience with the type however was after one of our club's NRA Personal Protection classes. A student that had taken the class with a Model 10 S&W asked if he could shoot the gun he brought back from WWII as despite the intervening 45 years at the time he had never actually fired it. One of the other instructors took him back up on line and they loaded the gun and started shooting, or trying to. It seemed in the first magazine they only managed two shots in a row once. Also As I stood to the rear right I noted a large amount of flame at the ejection port.

They reloaded and again they fired one shot and the gun malfunctioned. At this point the other instructor called me forward and I took the gun and extracted the magazine and worked the action to find the chamber empty. I studied the little gun carefully but could see nothing wrong. Since the problem seemed to be the slide riding over the top round in the magazine I wondered if there might be a magazine problem so I pulled it from my pocket to examine it.

The magazine was just fine........and loaded with .32 S&W!

How the little rimmed cartridges even went in the magazine never mind fed at all I have no idea. When I told the ( I then thought elderly) man he had the wrong ammunition he insisted that 7.65mm was .32 and someone that really knew shooting stuff had told him so and this was .32 ammo, the same he used in an old top break.

Fortunately my range box had a partial box of .32 ACP in it so I was able to show him the difference, shoot a magazine while he watched, let him shoot a magazine of the correct ammo ( all without a bobble) and traded him my remaining .32 ACP FMJ for his remaining .32 S&W.

My guess is that the fire at the breech was because the rim of the S&W rounds did not allow the slide to fully close and the S&W may have lacked the chamber pressure to expand the brass to contain the pressure. The gun had no ejection port flash noticeable in day light with the proper ammo.

Just thought you guys might enjoy the story.

-kBob

 

[Gun Master]

.32ACP ? or .32 S&W ?

Nice story.

Now, some of us are the elderly man, hopefully with more shooting info than he.

Also, nice of you to share your expertise and to help him.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

That story reminds me of the people who bought up surplus S&Ws made for England in WWII and chambered for the .38 S&W. They ran .38 Special chambering reamers into them and sold them as .38 Specials. Every now and then you run across someone who can't figure out why his S&W splits brass on firing and spits fire.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I seriously enjoy, rely upon and trust the .32 Auto cartridge.

These are some of my current ones. Oddly, as much as I like the cartridge... or maybe because of how much I like the cartridge - .32 guns are the easiest for me to trade/sell on with the exception of this Colt and CZ. Get my hands on a Sig 230 .32 and that'll become a keeper as well.

The round's well shaped, easily fed, weirdly accurate and sufficiently powerful for me - when a .32 fits the bill.
Got here:
--An early 1903, coincidentally, my first handgun. This will some day be treated to a high polish blue since I no longer carry it.

--CZ 27. Satisfies my CZ "thing" in .32... for now.

--Ortgies. This gun's particular foilbles not withstanding, is a pretty nice pistol as long as you don't need to depend upon it for danger mouse scenarios. Regardless of the nearly nonexistent sights, it's almost "parlor gun" accurate.

--Your-mama's-not-a-Llama... "Bufalo" .32 with nifty pearl (real) grips and beautifully subtle 24k gold highlighting. I really dig this pistol being a fan of Mexican Bar-B-Que guns. This too will remain with me unless I like the cut of one of the Mexican Cowboys down at the Tucson fairgrounds show. Those guys and their families make my day.

 

[Wisco]

Lot's more 32s than I thought!

Cornhusker77 - I find your H&R Self Loading .32 especially cool. How did you come by it? If you bought it, and don't mind sharing, approx. what did it run you?

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Wowee, Todd! Thanks for sharing your pix and thoughts on .32 acp! I really like the .32 as well as a sometimes carry pistol and I always like seeing others carry guns or collections of them.

I collect 1903 Pocket Hammerless pistols in .32 and have noticed that I can negotiate a better price on .32's that are for sale now a days...better than the .380 version. The .32 is generally accepted as a "dog" or unacceptable SD caliber so folks selling them seem to be able to be "talked down" $100 or so with the '03 Pocket Hammerless.

I recently scored 2 pistols for seriously nice prices due to finish condition and caliber which suits me fine as they are gonna get tuned up/gun smithed and hard chromed as carry pistols and the savings translates into less money out of pocket to that end.

VooDoo

 

[Float Pilot]

Has anyone mentioned the Model 51 Remington....???

 

[el Godfather]

Walther pps French made
Beretta