Cleaning up the estate

[BlisteringSilence]

In August of this year, my grandfather passed. He was a fantastic man, a truly great father and grandfather, and model for how I lead my life.

He was also a lifelong shotgunner, and was the man who introduced me to clay target shooting at the ripe old age of 8 or so.

Under his tutelage, and with his guidance and encouragement, I have qualified as an AA shooter (at various times) in trap, double trap, skeet, English sporting, and FITASC.

Unfortunately, the demands of work and family have made it so that I don't compete nearly as much as I used to, and now I settle for a couple of rounds a month.

Regardless, I will forever treasure this man for what he taught me, both about shotgunning and about life.

All of this is said in introduction of my real topic, which is the guns that grandpa left to me, and I have successfully sussed out as part of cleaning out his home and settling his estate.

Between my brother and I, grandpa left us around 20 shotguns each, as well as a smattering of rifles and pistols (and each of us received a .22 with instructions to present it to his as-yet-unborn great-grandchildren, along with a note and a savings bond).

This is a figurative ton of weapons, many of which I will likely rarely fire, and none of which I will ever be able to sell. Not because of anything he said or did, but simply because they are my remembrance of him.

At his request, 6 of the 870's he gave me are set aside for a donation in his name to my local boy scout camp, where they will hopefully live long and productive lives, enriching the experiences and stoking the excitement of boys at camp the same way they did me.

The rest have moved into their black Friday sale gun safe, and I have finally had time to go through them and do more than catalog models and serial numbers. Thus, a few questions:

1. Does anyone know if it's possible to date an 870 by serial number?

2. Are there any reference materials for barrel proof marks for Remington?

3. Is a cracked Remington 870 receiver worth repairing?

4. Are there any collector-specific things I need to look for with regard to his shotguns? They're a mix of 870's, 1100's, 11-87's, with a few odds and ends tossed in (a BT-99, a beautifully engraved Charles Daley O/U from Japan, a Winchester Supreme Sporting O/U that is a twin to mine, and a Browning BPS that's old enough it predates invector plus chokes.) I do have what appear to be a matched pair of 870 TC's, one in Skeet and one in Trap, with sequential serial numbers. I don't know if this was an accident, or if he custom ordered them from the factory that way, and I have no way to check. I do know that the stocks are absolutely gorgeous.

Specifically to #3, I think I finally have proof that yes, Virginia, it is possible to wear out an 870. I've never done it to one of mine that I bought through shooting, but dear Grandpa apparently has. At this point, there's no way I'd shoot this gun, but I can't bear to get rid of it or turn it into a parts gun. If it's feasible, I'd like to send it off to be welded and refinished, and then return it to active duty.

Please see the pics below:

 

[Virginian]

1. Does anyone know if it's possible to date an 870 by serial number?
Yes, you can get close. If the barrel is original and has a date code you can nail it to the month. See here : www.remingtonsociaty.com
2. Are there any reference materials for barrel proof marks for Remington? I forget what Remington called the marks they put on barrels, but it wasn't proof marks. The U.S. doesn't require individual proofing of barrels.
3. Is a cracked Remington 870 receiver worth repairing?
Only you can say as it is your money. It can be welded and refinished, but it will surely cost more than the gun is worth. I have never seen one cracked like that, and I suspect it was some sort of defect in the receiver rather than wear, as that is not a particularly high stress area.
4. Are there any collector-specific things I need to look for with regard to his shotguns? They're a mix of 870's, 1100's, 11-87's, with a few odds and ends tossed in (a BT-99, a beautifully engraved Charles Daley O/U from Japan, a Winchester Supreme Sporting O/U that is a twin to mine, and a Browning BPS that's old enough it predates invector plus chokes.) I do have what appear to be a matched pair of 870 TC's, one in Skeet and one in Trap, with sequential serial numbers. I don't know if this was an accident, or if he custom ordered them from the factory that way, and I have no way to check. I do know that the stocks are absolutely gorgeous.
For insurance value purposes, I would look at completed auctions on GunBroker. Make sure the policy is an agreed value one, or if something happens they will be trying to pay you $150 a gun or so.

 

[Fleetman]

I would contact Remington about the cracked receiver.....tell them the circumstances on how you acquired the firearms, what your grandpa intended to do with six of them (the world needs a whole lot MORE people like your grandpa!), and they may offer a replacement for you. It IS an unusual crack. I shot skeet for years with two of my five 870's and both have well in excess of 15k rounds. Good luck to you and I hope the memories of your grandpa far outweigh the pain of losing him.

 

[Willie Sutton]

Only advice is in respect to your donation to the Scouts: A clause stating that they will be returned to you or to your heirs in the event that they are no longer actively used in Scouting Programs by the recipient of your gift. Otherwise, one day, they will get bored of the program and will sell them off, or they will otherwise fade away into "other hands".


Willie

.

 

[BlisteringSilence]

Only advice is in respect to your donation to the Scouts: A clause stating that they will be returned to you or to your heirs in the event that they are no longer actively used in Scouting Programs by the recipient of your gift. Otherwise, one day, they will get bored of the program and will sell them off, or they will otherwise fade away into "other hands".


Willie

.

Willie, thank you for your advice. The paperwork is already drafted. Being somewhat of a control freak, I have purchased a safe with dehumidification system that is being gifted along with the shotguns, where they will live over the summer, as summers in Arkansas are not known for their mild climate.

When camp is not in session, they will reside in the newly built armory and training center adjacent to the shooting complex. Grandpa donated a large sum toward building the shotgun enhancements to the shooting complex, so I feel comfortable that his wishes will be fully honored.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think Grandpa was a real gentleman, and you are too.

Your cracked 870 could theoretically be welded, remachined, and refinished. If you could find somebody willing to take the time and the liability, which can be a problem.
Instead of turning it into a parts gun or wall hanger, I suggest you GET a parts gun. Put Grandpa's barrel and stock on a fresh receiver. Keep the receiver he wore out as a memento.

As said, most Remingtons have a date code on the barrel. Sometime it even makes sense, but not always. But that is the BARREL. Remington shotgun barrels are freely interchangeable and no way of knowing if each has its original barrel. I know for sure that neither of my 1100s has the barrel it was shipped with, so their date codes do not signify.

You do not mention anything that I would consider a "collector's item" with the possible exception of that unmatched consecutive pair. It might pay you to join the Remington collector's society so you can ask the pros about it. Not that the others aren't all first class sporting guns, they just aren't rarities.

 

[cat_IT_guy]

I dont have anything useful to add, but as a new father-to-be with a still living, but going downhill 79 yo grandfather, this seemed really special:

and each of us received a .22 with instructions to present it to his as-yet-unborn great-grandchildren, along with a note and a savings bond.

Thats a really neat, personal way to pass down a passion for guns, shooting, and the outdoors in general to a future generation.

 

[W.E.G.]

Cracked 870 receiver?

I sure there is A WAY to "fix" it.

It there an economical way to fix it?
NO.

Junk it.

 

[LeonCarr]

According to the late great Dave McCracken, the receiver on an 870 is good for around 250,000 rounds. Your Pawpaw did a buttload of shooting . I would send it to Remington with a nice letter enclosed detailing the history of it and they just might replace the receiver for free or a nominal fee. I would not trust a welded up anything on a firearm. I would also shoot his guns as often as possible, IME when a serious shooter passes on he would have wanted it that way.

I have seen that only one other time in my life, and the 870 in question was used by the Texas Department of Criminal Justice almost everyday as a range training gun from about 1973 to 2003. It had an estimated 300,000 rounds of birdshot and buckshot run through it.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[200Apples]

.
I have no advice outside of what's already been given... I just wanted to post my comment that this is a great thread. The original post is very full of win (internet slang, for "fantastic", "awesome", "truly great", etc).

 

[MikeJackmin]

You can date an 870 receiver by calling Remington customer service and giving them the serial number. They do it all the time.

 

[AI&P Tactical]

Dave was seldom wrong but in this case he was. There is an 870 displayed in the Remington Museum of an 870 with over a million rounds through it by a world class Trap shooter (forget his name) who Remington sponsored through out his carrer. Also, the Remington receiver is steel and there is no stress on it so no way it wears out. Having worked on these for over 30 years I have never seen a cracked one and can say with confidence that such damage is extemely rare and I would be at a loss even trying to explain how it happened.

If one understands that there is no stress on a pump reciever they understand why Mossberg and others can build on aluminum receivers. So if it is safe to build on aluminum receivers there can be no explaination how a solid steel receiver can wear out. Ejector springs or the Ejector but not the receiver.

 

[Sam Cade]

I'm not sure what you mean by the 870 receiver being unstressed. Could you elaborate?
The entire firearm is subject to recoil stresses. Additionally, the receiver itself is also going to catch part of the shock of the action being cycled.


I've seen several high round count 870 Trap guns with cracked receivers. The cracks being located fore or aft of the port. The OP's shotgun is the first one I've ever seen that has both.

 

[PabloJ]

I would not bother with cracked receiver on a Wingmaster. Just like Ithaca 37 guys you can sell individual parts for total sum more then entire firearm would be worth.

 

[Black Knight]

Like MikeJackmin said call Remington and they will be more than happy to help you with the dates. They will also give you information on the cracked receiver. I bought my first Remington 870 from an estate sale a few years ago and contacted Remington. They not only gave the the year it was made but also sent me an owner's manual (which was missing) and several freebes. They are customer oriented and very pleasant to deal with. At least they were when I called them a few years ago.

 

[justashooter in pa]

as a welding engineer, i would tell you that a weld repair of the cracked receiver would be prohibitively complex and prohibitively expensive, and that few "gunsmiths" are capable of safely and esthetically doing such a job. you need to scrap it.

 

[AI&P Tactical]

If you have seen one you have seen one more then I have. I used to only work on Departmental guns but now work on all Remington Shotguns and still work on LE owned shotguns. I have seen then dropped from repelling towers, run over by vehicles and tumbled down concrete stair and none of this resulted in more then cosmetic damage.

The point was that they do not wear out after this many or that many rounds. The ejector or shell latches maybe but not the solid steel receiver.

It is obvious from the picture that the receiver cracked but it is extremely rare or I would have seen one in the last 34 years or I would have seen an example at the factory while there during multiple trips to Ilion. The area of that crack is because the receiver was defective from day one. Something along the line of that crack in the steel lead to that. An 870 receiver will last life times, that means more then me and my children and even their childern.

And any recoil stress is not enough to damage a receiver or the aluminum receivers would not be used in some models. Also, I agree with member who is a professional welder who recommends against any effort at repair of that reciever.

 

[btg3]

The receiver is cracked where I expect it might be if someone fell or sat on the gun -- such that the barrel acted effectively as a crowbar inside that area of the receiver. The crack could have been initially imperceptible, but it is the nature of cracks to propagate -- especially if the gun continued to be used until the crack was evident. Under this scenario, the life of the receiver would be significantly shortened due to abuse, rather than use. Such is the unfortunate fate of some working guns.

FWIW, I also think that a repair would be ill-advised.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Shotgun receivers like those of the the 870 flex slightly in operation - Remington discovered this when some of its early semiautos started cracking receivers just behind the slot for the operating handle. After reflection they extended the slot with an elongated 'tail' that allowed for the flex. Note the difference between the receivers of the 11-48 and the 1100 for example. Check Kuhnhausen for details, if you have a copy handy - mine's packed right now.

It's less usual for 870 receivers to crack due to use, but possible. Those appear to be stress cracks, if cut away and separated at the crack I'd bet the steel will have developed a crystalline structure at the crack.

And anyone sitting or falling on/across an 870 would almost certainly bend the barrel, not crack the receiver... that I've seen done.

 

[dmurdach]

I dont want to hijack this thread, and apologize for my ignorance, but if there is very little stress on the receiver,why would it be so ill advised to grind out this crack and weld it? Worries of changing the hardness? but it could be re heat treated and annealed. I can see few people wanting to do it for liability reasons, but as the whole gun means something to the OP I would think that it would not be that huge of an issue.

 

[btg3]

And anyone sitting or falling on/across an 870 would almost certainly bend the barrel, not crack the receiver... that I've seen done.

What you saw, could vary significantly from numerous other scenarios that produce a result other than a bent barrel. But, I don't doubt that the incident is unforgettable and the anecdote, worth retelling.

 

[200Apples]

.

Sam Cade

I'm not sure what you mean by the 870 receiver being unstressed. Could you elaborate?
The entire firearm is subject to recoil stresses. Additionally, the receiver itself is also going to catch part of the shock of the action being cycled.

I'm with you, Sam. I also put some faith in J.D.'s experience.

Perhaps what J.D. might have meant was that when the pump-action 870 action is closed and a round ignited, the bolt is locked to the barrel. The receiver at that instant in time is only surrounding the locked bolt-to-chamber assembly.

Dunno. I'm still kinda a no0b... and as such, won't let this thread rest. Hahaha...

 

[spad124]

For receiver manufacture dates you can call Remington at 800 243 9700 extension 7. I've dated three 870s this way. The most recent one I dated this way is a 1960 manufactured TC Trap.

Also, I believe Remington started using a letter prefix to the serial number in 1968. From what I've found, the first prefix used was "S" in 1968. I have a "W" prefix 870 made in 1988 and a "X" prefix made in 1990. It seems that every few years the prefix changed. I don't know if Remington assigned a fixed number of SNs to a prefix block or they changed the prefix every so many years. But if you call and give them the full receiver SN they will tell you the year of manufacture.