"clear front sight"/ Front sight, press?

[daniel craig]

So here's the deal. I've been shooting for 30 years, actively shooting with weekly range visits and monthly matches for about 8 years. I only started recently shooting paper, working on Bill Drills, Dot Torture drills, etc. And I've come to the conclusion that I don't shoot "right" according to most things I've read (and actually according to what I teach new shooters. I teach sharp focus on the front sight, target is out of focus, rear sight slightly out of focus. But I don't think I have been actually shooting that way, at least in matches or when doing drills.

Something intrigued me about what Travis Haley says here, at 10 minutes 53 seconds.


The "hard threat focus" he discusses is apparently what I've been doing, or at least something closer to that than "clear front sight." I have weird eyes. I wasn't diagnosed with a lazy eye as a kid because I memorized the eye chart because I didn't want to fail the test. My right eye didn't develop properly. It's kinda like poorly developed film or a digital image without half of the pixels. I'm strongly left-eye dominant but right handed, so I shoot long guns lefty and handguns righty, using my left eye. I am what most people would call competent or moderate/advanced handgun shooter; I usually place top 15 percent in local matches and I have won a few. Not state or national level, so take that for what it's worth. But I feel like I'm reasonably competent.

In shooting drills on paper recently, I've become aware that when I really try to get a sharp focus on the front sight, two things happen:
1. It slows me way down; and
2. I see two targets and have to kind of pick the correct one. This happens whether at 3 yards or 20.

I have never really seriously evaluated what I'm actually doing when I shoot before. I just shoot and the plates fall. I have had moments in matches where I have tried to pay attention to where my focus is and have had mixed results.

Shooting a red dot has probably concealed this issue because with a dot you have a "target focus" and the dot just hovers over it. You're not focusing hard on the dot/optic. At least I'm not. This works okay for me; here's a recent video for reference if needed.



However, I've been shooting iron sights the past couple of weeks and I've learned that it's rare for me to actually have a sharp, clear, front sight focus. I can see the sights reasonably well aligned with each other and with the target, but they are somewhat blurry; my actual focus is on the target or somewhere between the front sight and the target.

My question is... at this point in my life should I actually put in the effort to try to learn to shoot with a sharp, clear, front sight focus? Or is the result what matters? If I can hit targets reasonably quickly does it matter where my focus is? Should I perfect and continue refining and progressing using my natural instinctual sighting method or should I learn to "do it the right way"?

As Travis says in his video above, in an actual fight your focus will likely be on the threat. I imagine it's somewhat controversial to contradict 100 years of handgun fighting canon by suggesting that you can shoot quickly and accurately without a sharp front sight picture. Maybe this doesn't matter, but I am pretty curious about it.

My thoughts....if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. If you’re shooting fine as is don’t change.

My handgun is mostly for SD. For ME I figure that if I’m far enough away that I need to aim I’m better off just getting the heck out. The human body is big. At 7-10 yards it point and shoot.

Out of curiosity, do your shoot with both eyes open?

 

[1KPerDay]

Yes I do.

 

[daniel craig]

Yes I do.

That makes it even harder to focus on things in separate planes because your eyes and brain are trying to process depth (which they don’t do with one eye closed). Shooting with both eyes open has a lot of advantages but a super clear sight picture isn’t one of them.

 

[.38 Special]

I am fortunate in that I always have had excellent vision. For me, coming to the point where I truly accepted and believed that a hard focus on the front sight is critical was transformative. Prior to that, my handgunning had been mediocre. Hard focus on the front sight was the first rung in the ladder which eventually led to the ability to win matches. In some ways that probably makes me a poor coach, as I tend to assume that if it worked that way for me, it should work that way for everyone else. The reality though, I'm sure, is that there are multiple ways to skin that cat, and while I still suggest any beginner start with front sight focus, I wouldn't insist upon it if it turned out to be unproductive.

As for the experienced shooter? Well, I am a big believer of the idea that shooting is 90% fundamentals, so never counsel against revisiting them. For people like the OP, though, it seems like front sight focus would require a ground-up rebuilding, with the end result in question. In their shoes, I'm not sure I would dare it unless I was deeply dissatisfied with my current state of shooting.

 

[1KPerDay]

Well said.

 

[9mmepiphany]

That makes it even harder to focus on things in separate planes because your eyes and brain are trying to process depth (which they don’t do with one eye closed). Shooting with both eyes open has a lot of advantages but a super clear sight picture isn’t one of them.

I had thought that also when my optometrist recommended shooting glasses with the dominate eye focused on the front sight and the non-dominate eye set for distance focus.

While I understood it intellectually, I lacked the imagination to accept the it working smoothly. I was wrong, it works perfectly. The only issue I had was adjusting to being able to see a crystal clear image of the front sight and the target at the same time...it was a true epiphany. I understand that some folks have a hard time accepting the concept and allowing their brain to function to that level; but it really isn't beyond the mental capabilities of most people

 

[LiveLife]

The only issue I had was adjusting to being able to see a crystal clear image of the front sight and the target at the same time...it was a true epiphany. I understand that some folks have a hard time accepting the concept and allowing their brain to function to that level; but it really isn't beyond the mental capabilities of most people

Words of a state IDPA champion.

 

[1KPerDay]

Bump for this. Good presentation but specifically he talks about focusing on the threat at around 5:50

 

[murf]

so, did you get any better from all this?

murf

 

[1KPerDay]

so, did you get any better from all this?

murf

Not sure... I guess I'm just trying to justify what I've been doing all along anyway. The additional complication that has arisen since I started this thread is that my vision is now worse and with my prescription lenses I can't focus sharp on the front sight anyway. so.....

BUT that has also taught me that I have been relying at least somewhat on a sharp or at least "in focus" view of the front sight in my peripheral vision. With it completely blurry I miss that point of reference. And for slow/target shooting it's impossible to be consistent at all. Getting old sucks.

 

[murf]

i see getting old as a challenge. my eyesight sucks too, so i concentrate on keeping a consistent follow-through and a consistent grip. the grip thing i have figured out, but that follow-through is a bear. my mind wanders too much.

aim small hit small,

murf

 

[doubleh]

The notion of eye surgery makes me want to puke though.[/QUOTE]

Eye surgery has come a long way in the last few years. I just had cataract surgery on both eyes. I took a vallium tablet before each surgery and that was it with the left eye. No pain at all. The right one required a coupe of tylenol after the vallium wore off. It was a total piece of cake compared to rotator cuff surgery and the followup therapy.

 

[1KPerDay]

 

[murf]

i disagree with this "rear sight" method. just get your grip consistent and shoot it like a shotgun regardless the sighting system. nope, i'm not a "run and gun" shooter, but do know how to shoot.

just my two cents,

murf

 

[9mmepiphany]

nope, i'm not a "run and gun" shooter, but do know how to shoot.

I think you might be missing the point being made of folks over refining their front sight focus. This is often taught as Seeing What You Need to See. This is often demonstrated by having learned shooting optics on their pistols and then going back to shooting iron sights.

Most of shooting is a learning process...a progression of technique. We first teach sight alignment, then front sight focus while looking through the rear notch, with the natural progression being more target focus...and allowing the subconscious to align the sights

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

So here's the deal. I've been shooting for 30 years, actively shooting with weekly range visits and monthly matches for about 8 years. I only started recently shooting paper, working on Bill Drills, Dot Torture drills, etc. And I've come to the conclusion that I don't shoot "right" according to most things I've read (and actually according to what I teach new shooters. I teach sharp focus on the front sight, target is out of focus, rear sight slightly out of focus. But I don't think I have been actually shooting that way, at least in matches or when doing drills.

Something intrigued me about what Travis Haley says here, at 10 minutes 53 seconds.


The "hard threat focus" he discusses is apparently what I've been doing, or at least something closer to that than "clear front sight." I have weird eyes. I wasn't diagnosed with a lazy eye as a kid because I memorized the eye chart because I didn't want to fail the test. My right eye didn't develop properly. It's kinda like poorly developed film or a digital image without half of the pixels. I'm strongly left-eye dominant but right handed, so I shoot long guns lefty and handguns righty, using my left eye. I am what most people would call competent or moderate/advanced handgun shooter; I usually place top 15 percent in local matches and I have won a few. Not state or national level, so take that for what it's worth. But I feel like I'm reasonably competent.

In shooting drills on paper recently, I've become aware that when I really try to get a sharp focus on the front sight, two things happen:
1. It slows me way down; and
2. I see two targets and have to kind of pick the correct one. This happens whether at 3 yards or 20.

I have never really seriously evaluated what I'm actually doing when I shoot before. I just shoot and the plates fall. I have had moments in matches where I have tried to pay attention to where my focus is and have had mixed results.

Shooting a red dot has probably concealed this issue because with a dot you have a "target focus" and the dot just hovers over it. You're not focusing hard on the dot/optic. At least I'm not. This works okay for me; here's a recent video for reference if needed.



However, I've been shooting iron sights the past couple of weeks and I've learned that it's rare for me to actually have a sharp, clear, front sight focus. I can see the sights reasonably well aligned with each other and with the target, but they are somewhat blurry; my actual focus is on the target or somewhere between the front sight and the target.

My question is... at this point in my life should I actually put in the effort to try to learn to shoot with a sharp, clear, front sight focus? Or is the result what matters? If I can hit targets reasonably quickly does it matter where my focus is? Should I perfect and continue refining and progressing using my natural instinctual sighting method or should I learn to "do it the right way"?

As Travis says in his video above, in an actual fight your focus will likely be on the threat. I imagine it's somewhat controversial to contradict 100 years of handgun fighting canon by suggesting that you can shoot quickly and accurately without a sharp front sight picture. Maybe this doesn't matter, but I am pretty curious about it.

Kind of like Ol' Butch Cassidy said (in the movie), "I do better when I move." I learned hunting first, then target shooting. Eventually got to be a pretty good point-shooter but it ruined me for target shooting. Like you, I shoot both eyes open and ambidextrous and I'm also left-eye dominant. But I shoot better left-handed so that's what I do mostly. I'm pushing 60 - which to me means still a kid - so I'm re-learning target shooting while still tracking-hunting, which is all just point-shooting at close range. To me, go ahead and try to learn a new skill without ruining your hit-percentages at close range. Take your time. Life's too short to be in a hurry.

 

[JTHunter]

Many years ago there was talk of the 'Tachy Psyche Reaction' which basically means when you are confronted with a threat....that you will focus your eyes on that threat and not be able to pull it back to the front sight. So it makes sense to practice focusing on the target and do the best you can to find the front sight...which is what's going to happen anyhow.

Like someguy2800 said in post #4, I have bad eyes as well, being badly near-sighted. And, having had a home invasion 30 years ago, I both agree with and understand Rob's post above. While on the phone with the dispatcher, I was holding a .380 at my chest level pointing it at his chest level with all of my attention on him and virtually none on the gun or its sights. The only time I concentrate on the sights is when I am testing the accuracy of a new ammunition/reload and need to test that. Otherwise, I just let the sights blur out and work on the blurred alignment.

 

[murf]

and allowing the subconscious to align the sights

i disagree with this. at this high level of technique i can't see the shooter taking the time to look at the front sight and move it until aligned with the rear sight let alone spending the time keeping them aligned all the way through the shooting process. i can see the shooter learning a specific grip and keeping that grip throughout the shooting process.

i think in the beginning we all learn to align the front and rear sight and progress the way you state in you post. at the upper level (which is where i think 1kperday is) any thoughts of sight alignment/grip should already be automatic and conscious thought should be focused on the target and where that danged hole is going to appear.

so i think transitioning from dot back to iron sights will be a snap so long as sight alignment/grip stays back in the subconscious where it belongs. that is why i brought up the "shoot it like a shotgun" analogy. shotgunners focus 100 percent on the target and have only a small bead at the barrel muzzle for reference. accuracy is all about gripping the shotgun the same every time.

just for reference, when i shoot i put a blurry front sight on a clear target. i don't use the rear sight.

murf

 

[9mmepiphany]

i disagree with this. at this high level of technique i can't see the shooter taking the time to look at the front sight and move it until aligned with the rear sight

That is the whole point of allowing the subconscious to align the sights...you don't look at the sights, you just see them.

Perhaps a it would be more clear if stating that it is to allow the subconscious to perceive when the sights are aligned to allow the completion of the press of the prepped trigger

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

That is the whole point of allowing the subconscious to align the sights...you don't look at the sights, you just see them.

Perhaps a it would be more clear if stating that it is to allow the subconscious to perceive when the sights are aligned to allow the completion of the press of the prepped trigger

Sounds like you’re describing point shooting. Look at where you want the bullet to go and close your grip as you extend the shooting hand. My uncle also used to practice snap shooting with rifle and shotgun. Same basic skill set. Don’t work too well trying to plug bullseyes though.

 

[murf]

That is the whole point of allowing the subconscious to align the sights...you don't look at the sights, you just see them.

Perhaps a it would be more clear if stating that it is to allow the subconscious to perceive when the sights are aligned to allow the completion of the press of the prepped trigger

aligning the sights takes too long (wrist movement is so slow), conscious or subconscious, is the point i'm trying to make, i guess. i don't worry about sight alignment anymore and just put the fuzzy front sight where i want to shoot and squeeze the trigger.

maybe this is the next zen level since the eyes don't do a very good job of centering the front sight in the rear sight (or is it the wrist can't keep the danged sights aligned) anyway.

thx for the insight,

murf

 

[9mmepiphany]

Sounds like you’re describing point shooting.

It is often confused by folks who haven't worked with this advanced technique. It is a by-product of understanding and practicing using your sights at speed. True Point Shooting is done without seeing the sights at all...gun below your sight plane

Don’t work too well trying to plug bullseyes though.

One of the techniques to train your subconscious is by dry firing with your eyes closed...it's a technique stolen/borrowed from Olympic shooters. One of my teachers is referred to by Michael Bane as the Human Machine Rest...he's also a IPSC/USPSA GM

 

[kidneyboy]

Most of shooting is a learning process...a progression of technique. We first teach sight alignment, then front sight focus while looking through the rear notch, with the natural progression being more target focus...and allowing the subconscious to align the sights

I think this is lost on most people.

 

[UncleEd]

Sights, what sights? OK, in all seriousness
I recommend folks here Google:

Bob Stasch--interview with a Chicago PD
veteran of 14 gunfights

It's 50 minutes long but I think most
informative about real gun fighting,
and yes, many kills.

So I urge you take the time and listen.
You may agree or dismiss afterward.

 

[sgt127]

I’ve posted this before. The guy in the middle is my friend of close to 40 years, my first real shooting instructor. And, a direct line descendant of Jeff Cooper. (I suppose that makes me a second line descendant)

He talks about in the early days, we were doing high speed Bullseye shooting. I started with revolvers. I could shoot little bitty groups at 25 all day long. And we just kinda sped that up with 1911’s with really nice crisp triggers.

If you have time, may be worth watching. There are three outstanding shooters giving away free advise. And, a bit of humor here and there.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/trigger-habits-martin-colman-leatham/