Cleveland Metroparks

[Pyro]

I was in the Brecksville Reservation the other day and during a quick peak on the "Rule and Regulations" I read that carrying or transporting any firearm is not allowed. I have a permit to carry a concealed handgun and I thought the Ohio Supreme Court already stated that no national or federal park may prohibit the lawful carrying of handguns, granted they don't enter any buildings.
I figured I'd post this here for clarification, anybody care to elaborate?

 

[Sam1911]

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/ohio.pdf

Looks like the state's preemption law covers this, and/or the section on parks.

 

[hermannr]

The Cleveland Metroparks Rules and regulations are here: http://www.clemetparks.com/Rangers/rules.asp

No mention of firearms, just can't kill the wildlife. Probably an intentially? not updated sign.

 

[Pyro]

Thanks Sam1911.

hermannr: they might have updated the online Rules and Regulations but not the physical signs I see around the park. Thanks for the link.

 

[bigfatdave]

"peek"

preemption covers you, as does the low frequency of getting searched in the park

don't worry about it

 

[rtroha]

The Cleveland Metroparks has always been good about following state law and I have never seen any indication otherwise. I notified a Ranger once of my carry status (as required) and he never even blinked.

About two years ago a licensee shot an attacking Rottweiler in the Rocky River Reservation and as far as I could tell from the news articles did not receive any kind of hassle from the Rangers. The dog's owner received a ticket for allowing his dog to run around unleashed.

 

[hermannr]

The Cleveland Metroparks has always been good about following state law and I have never seen any indication otherwise. I notified a Ranger once of my carry status (as required) and he never even blinked.

About two years ago a licensee shot an attacking Rottweiler in the Rocky River Reservation and as far as I could tell from the news articles did not receive any kind of hassle from the Rangers. The dog's owner received a ticket for allowing his dog to run around unleashed.

I didn't see where it is require to notify a Park ranger of your carry status? In my case I Open carry, you would think that would be notice enough don't you think.

BTW: if you were not stopped by a Park Ranger for a motor vehicle stop why would you notify them anyway???

 

[rtroha]

1. Ohio is a must notify state for concealed carry licensees if they are carrying when stopped.

2. Licensees are required to notify any time they are stopped for law enforcement purposes and that is not restricted to motor vehicle stops.

In my case, I was actually riding my bicycle and the ranger stopped me to notify me that I had to vacate the area because it was going to be closed off for "wildlife management". (They were going to shoot some deer for population control).

 

[1911 guy]

OHIO IS A "MUST NOTIFY" STATE! YES, I AM USING ALL CAPS! WHY DO OTHER PEOPLE FROM OTHER STATES ALWAYS ASSUME THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH NOTIFYING? NOTICE A TREND? EVERYONE FROM OHIO **HAS TO** INFORM LEO (rangers qualify under this) WHEN CARRYING!

Damn. You'd think this question didn't get asked every other blinkin' day here.

 

[Art Eatman]

Okay, okay, take a Valium...

 

[Sam1911]

Sheesh! I doubt most of us would have realized that a park ranger would qualify as an LEO for the purposes of notifying -- nor would most of us assume that a "hey please bike somewhere else, we're shutting down the park" type interaction would rise to the level of an "OFFICIAL" police contact in that you'd need to inform the ranger about your weapon.

But some places are weird. If that actually IS the law, thanks for letting us know.

 

[rtroha]

Unfortunately, the phrase "law enforcement purposes" is not defined in Ohio Revised Code. Things not defined in the law sometimes get defined in court cases. I don't want my name on some precedent setting court case which defines "law enforcement purposes".

If the ranger had said, "Nice day for a bike ride.", I would have said "yup" and kept on going.

 

[Deanimator]

Sheesh! I doubt most of us would have realized that a park ranger would qualify as an LEO for the purposes of notifying

I'm not sure why you WOULDN'T consider somebody in uniform, carrying a gun, with the power of arrest, an LEO.

I'm 100% against notification, mandatory or otherwise. That being said, given that I try to obey the law, even when I don't like it, it seems obvious under Ohio law that they are:
a) LEOs
b) subject to the asinine notification requirement.

The same goes for the Coast Guard, if you get stopped on Lake Erie or on a river for inspection.

Hopefully, Harless has started the avalanche of pebbles that will sweep notification into the dustbin of history.

 

[hermannr]

I read the OH law. It states you must notify when there is a motor vehicle stop. Everything was specifically centered around a motor vehicle and a traffic stop. I see nothing that says you must notify at any other time.

I have carried since 1970, I have been stopped in that time..our CPL come up on the officer's screen when he runs our drivers license. I have never notified, I have never been asked if I was armed (I usually OC) I have never been asked for my CPL...ever.

That you are armed is 100% irrelivent to a traffic stop, or any other interaction that is not criminal. Oh, BTW: officer, I did not wear a hat today. Just as much validity.

Do you really think someone that is up to no good is going to "inform"? OH even had one conviction for not informing thrown out...5th ammendment you know.

 

[Deanimator]

I read the OH law. It states you must notify when there is a motor vehicle stop.

Can you quote where it specifically says "motor vehicle stop"?

 

[hermannr]

Can you quote where it specifically says "motor vehicle stop"?

"...who is the driver or an occupant of a motor vehicle that is stopped as a result of a traffic stop or a stop for another law enforcement purpose or is the driver or an occupant of a commercial motor vehicle that is stopped by an employee of the motor carrier enforcement unit for the purposes defined in section 5503.34 of the Revised Code, who is transporting or has a loaded handgun in the motor vehicle or commercial motor vehicle in any manner, shall do any of the following:..." http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.16

 

[rtroha]

Yes, the second paragraph does apply to motor vehicles. Then the third paragraph says:

If a licensee is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and if the licensee is carrying a concealed handgun at the time the officer approaches, the licensee shall promptly inform any law enforcement officer who approaches the licensee while stopped that the licensee has been issued a license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun and that the licensee currently is carrying a concealed handgun;

 

[Deanimator]

Yes, the second paragraph does apply to motor vehicles. Then the third paragraph says:

In response to a query by me on the OFCC forums, that portion was noted.

The language of the ORC is typically so tortured that it looks like the result of an attempt by Norm Crosby to write poetry in German.

 

[hermannr]

Yes, the second paragraph does apply to motor vehicles. Then the third paragraph says:

What Ohio law are paragraph 3 are you quoting? The one (codes.ohio.gov/2923.16) That I am reading...E(3) states:

(3) Knowingly fail to remain in the motor vehicle while stopped or knowingly fail to keep the person’s hands in plain sight at any time after any law enforcement officer begins approaching the person while stopped and before the law enforcement officer leaves, unless the failure is pursuant to and in accordance with directions given by a law enforcement officer;

Hej, here is the rest of (E):

(4) Knowingly have contact with the loaded handgun by touching it with the person’s hands or fingers in the motor vehicle at any time after the law enforcement officer begins approaching and before the law enforcement officer leaves, unless the person removes, attempts to remove, grasps, holds, or has contact with the loaded handgun pursuant to and in accordance with directions given by the law enforcement officer;

(5) Knowingly disregard or fail to comply with any lawful order of any law enforcement officer given while the motor vehicle is stopped, including, but not limited to, a specific order to the person to keep the person’s hands in plain sight.

 

[hermannr]

OK, too keep the discussion neat and clean...here is the WHOLE of 2923.16(E) as per http://codes.gov.ohio/orc/2923.16:

(E) No person who has been issued a license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun under section 2923.125 or 2923.1213 of the Revised Code

or a license to carry a concealed handgun that was issued to the person by another state with which the attorney general has entered into a reciprocity agreement under section 109.69 of the Revised Code, who is the driver or an occupant of a motor vehicle that is stopped as a result of a traffic stop or a stop for another law enforcement purpose or is the driver or an occupant of a commercial motor vehicle that is stopped by an employee of the motor carrier enforcement unit for the purposes defined in section 5503.34 of the Revised Code, and who is transporting or has a loaded handgun in the motor vehicle or commercial motor vehicle in any manner, shall do any of the following :

(1) Fail to promptly inform any law enforcement officer who approaches the vehicle while stopped that the person has been issued a license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun and that the person then possesses or has a loaded handgun in the motor vehicle;

(2) Fail to promptly inform the employee of the unit who approaches the vehicle while stopped that the person has been issued a license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun and that the person then possesses or has a loaded handgun in the commercial motor vehicle
;

(3) Knowingly fail to remain in the motor vehicle while stopped or knowingly fail to keep the person’s hands in plain sight at any time after any law enforcement officer begins approaching the person while stopped and before the law enforcement officer leaves, unless the failure is pursuant to and in accordance with directions given by a law enforcement officer;

(4) Knowingly have contact with the loaded handgun by touching it with the person’s hands or fingers in the motor vehicle at any time after the law enforcement officer begins approaching and before the law enforcement officer leaves, unless the person removes, attempts to remove, grasps, holds, or has contact with the loaded handgun pursuant to and in accordance with directions given by the law enforcement officer;

(5) Knowingly disregard or fail to comply with any lawful order of any law enforcement officer given while the motor vehicle is stopped, including, but not limited to, a specific order to the person to keep the person’s hands in plain sight.

It is obvious that section (E) pertains to when a licensed individual is in a motor vehicle, and only when they are in a motor vehicle...begins with the first introductory paragraph, and continues through Paragraph (E)(5).

 

[rtroha]

I misread your ORC reference in post 16. This is the one I am referring to.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.126

See second and third paragraphs of the first section.

 

[hermannr]

OK, I see what you are reading..so now I ask..other than in a traffic stop, when would an officer "Approach" you, with you "knowing" that he wanted to talk to you, personally, for any reason?

I believe that 2923.16 is the intent.

 

[Deanimator]

OK, I see what you are reading..so now I ask..other than in a traffic stop, when would an officer "Approach" you, with you "knowing" that he wanted to talk to you, personally, for any reason?

He just has to call out to or directly approach you. A cop can "stop" you on foot for literally ANY reason, legitimate or otherwise:

• He could suspect that you're a witness to a crime.
• He could suspect you've committed or are about to commit a crime.
• He could have a false report that you've committed a crime.
• He could be fishing.
• He could be unlawfully biased against you for some reason.
• He could be bored.

In Ohio, it doesn't matter. If you have a CHL, are carrying concealed, and you are stopped for an ostensible "law enforcement purpose", you have to notify.

Beyond that:

"Am I free to leave?"
"No?"
"I have nothing further to say without my lawyer present."

Then SHUT UP.

 

[rtroha]

opencarry.org is full of stories of open carriers being stopped while on foot. (Open carriers don't have to notify but they are being "stopped").

I already mentioned my bicycle "stop" earlier. When a ranger holds up his hand in the universal "halt" sign, it's pretty obvious.