Close Quarters

[Trent]

We train Krav in my department, and I think it's a relatively effective system... it's effective because it covers encounters like I described above, and if you don't get a technique "perfect", you can still stay in the fight. I wasn't going to be trying a twist lock or some other type of joint manipulation on that armed suspect. I just hit him as hard as I could, repeatedly, until I gained the upper hand in the situation.

Use the hard parts on soft parts, repeat until desired outcome is achieved. In the sole lethal force encounter I've had, that's what worked as well. I really didn't have any options at all, other than to submit, and if I did that I probably wouldn't be here.

Worth noting, training kept me from freezing, or from losing those vital 2/10ths of reaction time, since I didn't have to "think".

Ingrained reactions you get through training are instantaneous, and happen subconsciously. It's why most folks can accidentally knock something off a table and instinctively grab it. It's also why my step dad took a knife through the leg once. He (along with most other male humans) have an instinct to clamp his legs to catch something when sitting at the table. I later trained that reflex OUT of me after watching him bleed all over the kitchen that day. Unfortunately I really honed the reflex to catch something falling in my line of work, and I've injured my hands multiple times doing so (the latest being an x-acto knife blade through the palm)

I've also honed the threat response to a punch. I've had folks throwing punches and kicks at me for over 30 years, and it's REAL tough to get one to land on me. Someone can (and friends try sometimes) to catch me off guard and invariably, without fail, I'll not be there when the punch would make contact. Either my head moves, my body shifts, I gently tap the punch past me, or (if they're particularly slow and telegraphing) they'll get knocked on their rear end before they can get it to me.

None of those are conscious reactions. It's subconscious reaction.

I truly believe you can train ANY response in or out of subconscious reflex. Once something is reflex it happens automatically without that decision loop that costs you time. And that's why we train! It works with firearms, it works with blocks, punches, kicks, throws, knives, etc. Any movement can become an automatic reflex.

BUT ONLY IF YOU HAVE BUILT UP NOT ONLY THE MUSCLE MEMORY FOR THE MOTION BUT *ALSO* THE TRIGGER THAT SETS IT OFF.

From a firearms perspective, I do like competitive shooting, a lot, but there is one very real drawback to it. You are training yourself to draw at the sound of a buzzer. It becomes automatic.

This reminds me of a point I wanted to bring up earlier but didn't.

Competitive shooting kind of sucks in a very real way, from a self defense perspective. You get the muscle memory but the stimulus that triggers the automatic response - which eventually speeds up your drawing time in competition - is NOT a reflection of what is going to happen in the real world. You have trained your mind and body to begin a motion based on a sound. When challenged in the real world you will not hear the buzzer. You'll still have a reactionary delay on drawing your gun in a self defense encounter.

It is good training from the perspective of acquiring targets, quickly putting shots on target, etc. But it does NOT prepare you for the most important part of self defense - the first two seconds of a violent encounter are not a buzzer sounding in your ear.

Force on force training is good because it trains you to draw a firearm (or initiate some other response) based on visual and physical stimuli. You train different ways of reacting to different threats based on what you see and distances involved.

Example; If you saw the gun and you were, say, 10 yards back, Kevin, your hand would have begun on the gun and it would have been moving to draw the gun before you made the conscious decision to do so. You wouldn't have had to think about it because your brain already knew what to do at that distance with that visual stimuli (seeing the motion to go for a gun triggers it, because you have TRAINED for that response).

Standing closer, with your mind aware that the subject was physically smaller, your brain elected to do a different response. If you lost 2/10ths of a second on reaction time you wouldn't likely have been able to close and hit him before he had the gun clear - it only takes a second for him to draw and you were already on the losing side of that time scale, since he took the initiative.

However, you'd trained in close quarters and you instinctively going to respond in a certain fashion.

If the guy had been a linebacker, your default, automated response would have been to take a step back while drawing your gun instead of taking a step in and popping him in the jaw. (You also would have been several feet further away and probably waiting on 5 or 6 more guys to show up before putting handcuffs on! )

I have repeated it over, and over, and over again in the thread but it damn well deserves repeating.

You want to train, and you want to train with a partner in a controlled environment with someone skilled watching over and providing feedback.

That is how you build timing, distance, muscle memory, and develop those "automated reactions."

Nothing else will do it.

You have to put in the time. You can't READ about it. You can't watch videos. That provides knowledge without any understanding.

YOU PERSONALLY HAVE TO PUT YOUR BODY IN A ROOM WITH OTHER FOLKS AND GO THROUGH THE PROCESS.

I can watch a video on how to do any number of things and gain a profound understanding of the how's and why's. Doesn't mean I can DO any of it.

(As I've proven time and time again in real life with plumbing and carpentry failures... sigh)

 

[strambo]

By blade edge do you mean the first or fifth metatarsal?

Fifth, the outside edge of the foot near the heel.

How do you get all your weight into the kick?

Not a kick, a stomp. You transfer your weight from the rear plant leg onto the stomping leg. It should end with you standing on their broken body part. Visualize placing a stick on a curb, then stomping on it to break it. You need to be close, plant foot no more than 12" or so from them at the start.

I did see a video once depicting a woman grabbed around the neck from behind, she kicked BG on the outside of the knee with the inside edge of her heel, it did destabilize him, but the video didn't continue to show what would happen after that.

I wouldn't even waste a calorie of energy on that. No power, no injury. If you can reach the inside of the ankle to stomp through, now we're talkin'.

Very good, thanks. Unlike knees, I did not know ankles were a vulnerable body part.

I bet everyone has stepped wrong and twisted an ankle. They are extremely vulnerable to injury and their body weight provides all the force you need. You stomp to take the ankle out of alignment, then their weight plus your weight breaks it (tears the ligaments and tendons).

To take it a step further...the end goal isn't to break the ankle, it is head trauma! Stomp their ankle so hard they bounce their head off the concrete (or, try to catch themselves and chip and elbow or break a wrist). Multiple injuries for one gross-motor move.

 

[old lady new shooter]

First of all, thank you so much for taking the time to keep answering my questions, and for doing such a nice clear job of it. I definitely understand that I need to actually train this stuff, but being incurably analytical if I first get a good mental grasp I bet I will do much better when I then try it out.

Fifth, the outside edge of the foot near the heel.

Near the heel, OK. I was worrying that further forward might be too delicate, I already broke that one once.

Not a kick, a stomp. You transfer your weight from the rear plant leg onto the stomping leg. It should end with you standing on their broken body part. Visualize placing a stick on a curb, then stomping on it to break it. You need to be close, plant foot no more than 12" or so from them at the start.

Um, a stick on a curb would be horizontal... but BG's leg is vertical at this point... ???

I wouldn't even waste a calorie of energy on that. No power, no injury. If you can reach the inside of the ankle to stomp through, now we're talkin'.

I bet everyone has stepped wrong and twisted an ankle. They are extremely vulnerable to injury and their body weight provides all the force you need. You stomp to take the ankle out of alignment, then their weight plus your weight breaks it (tears the ligaments and tendons).

LOVE the part about their own weight helping.

I like this whole ankle stomp thing, being a foot shorter than BG won't be a hindrance and the movement required (if I'm understanding correctly) should be something I can do. Presumably if I'm facing him there is something I'm supposed to be doing with my arms while this is going on to protect myself against him hitting me somewhere vulnerable? If he's holding me from behind and I were able to get the inside of his ankle as you mentioned, is he gonna fall on me and then we're both on the ground? Or how do I avoid that?

To take it a step further...the end goal isn't to break the ankle, it is head trauma! Stomp their ankle so hard they bounce their head off the concrete (or, try to catch themselves and chip and elbow or break a wrist). Multiple injuries for one gross-motor move.

 

[Trent]

If he's behind you and grabs you around the arms, pinning them against your side (rear bear hug), drop your weight suddenly while simultaneously raising your elbows. Should get the arms shrugged up and over your head if you do it correctly. (Takes practice; especially against stronger men who could lift your entire body weight. Just "dropping" your weight isn't enough because you'll just raise your legs and be suspended in air..)

Then elbow to the ribs, the lower ribs are much weaker.

If they grab you again before you get away, eyes, throat, groin, knees, ankles.

I prefer to teach eyes and throat, or nose, which will make the strongest man's eyes water up if it's smashed. Stomping or kicking them, especially if you have weak bones (osteoperosis), is more likely to break your OWN ankle, especially if you aren't trained on how to maintain the proper foot angle.

And then you can't get away. You're screwed.

However, a bad guy who can't breathe from a crushed larynx is (soon, within 30 seconds) no longer combat effective.

And a bad guy who can't see you can't target you. They're out of the fight more or less immediately. You just have to break contact to get away from feral-wounded-instinct that hits them to avoid getting yourself ripped apart in their agony.

Unless you don't have a better target, I advise AGAINST groin strikes.

That just makes most guys real angry. It's not debilitating at all if the dude is amped up on drugs or adrenaline.

Groin strikes ARE good at one thing, though, opening up the face for an attack against the eyes or throat. Angry men lash out and if you time it right you can lay serious damage on them before they can tear you to pieces.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Thanks Trent.

If he's behind you and grabs you around the arms, pinning them against your side (rear bear hug), drop your weight suddenly while simultaneously raising your elbows. Should get the arms shrugged up and over your head if you do it correctly. (Takes practice; especially against stronger men who could lift your entire body weight. Just "dropping" your weight isn't enough because you'll just raise your legs and be suspended in air..)

This is really interesting. Some time ago, envisioning more of what I think is called a choke hold (? one arm around victim's neck, from behind), I thought of holding BG's arm with my hands and then suddenly pulling down while removing my feet from the floor... extremely few guys would be able to hold my weight with only one arm... ran it by a friend (unfortunately not local) with a lot of martial arts experience, he said BG would likely go down but take me with him, Very Not Good, so I discarded the idea. You seem to be recommending a way to force BG to hold my weight but with my feet still on the floor, how exactly is this "dropping one's weight" accomplished?

Then elbow to the ribs, the lower ribs are much weaker.

Being that I am very short (now under 5'1"), to get BG's ribs I'd have to elbow up as well as back. Just tried this and can only get about 5" elevation, would that be enough? Also, is there a trick to get more force into the move?

If they grab you again before you get away, eyes, throat, groin, knees, ankles.

I prefer to teach eyes and throat, or nose, which will make the strongest man's eyes water up if it's smashed. Stomping or kicking them, especially if you have weak bones (osteoperosis), is more likely to break your OWN ankle, especially if you aren't trained on how to maintain the proper foot angle.

And then you can't get away. You're screwed.

However, a bad guy who can't breathe from a crushed larynx is (soon, within 30 seconds) no longer combat effective.

Larynx would be easier than eyes -- lower, a bigger target, and no psychological factor to overcome. Assume outside edge of hand/forearm would be what to use?

And a bad guy who can't see you can't target you. They're out of the fight more or less immediately. You just have to break contact to get away from feral-wounded-instinct that hits them to avoid getting yourself ripped apart in their agony.

Unless you don't have a better target, I advise AGAINST groin strikes.

That just makes most guys real angry. It's not debilitating at all if the dude is amped up on drugs or adrenaline.

Groin strikes ARE good at one thing, though, opening up the face for an attack against the eyes or throat. Angry men lash out and if you time it right you can lay serious damage on them before they can tear you to pieces.

 

[jeepnik]

No, they'd be from the "assaults" in the list of violent crimes he compiled. Probably a decent number of physical assaults go un-reported, especially if both parties are at fault (most times that's the case) or it is minor.

Trent was just acknowledging the limits of crime statistics. There is always an unknown element of un-reported crime and in some cases/categories it can be huge. Another popular source is the NCVS, National Crime Victimization Survey. As a survey, it can be predictive of all crime as it asks about reported or unreported data. It also captures a lot more details. Its limitation however, is a huge one, it is just a projection based on survey response.

The FBI UCR and the NCVS taken together give a decent sense of violent crime and statistical chances as well as what the primary threats are, but there will never be perfect data.

That is also just general data, an individual's exposure can vary wildly from that. A female in a big city who is clueless about situational awareness and likes to get smashed in public will have a very high personal risk. A somewhat fit male in a small town with good situational awareness, calm demeanor (won't get sucked into ego-driven "fights"), and who does not make the same poor life choices will have an exposure rate of near zero.

A very wise man once said, "There are three types of lies. Lies, damned lies and statistics".

 

[bubba in ca]

Soldier gets no points as a ballerina, but if he would have gone for his gun first he would have been sliced and diced!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJkyzDuItRk&feature=youtu.be

 

[Trent]

Thanks Trent.



This is really interesting. Some time ago, envisioning more of what I think is called a choke hold (? one arm around victim's neck, from behind), I thought of holding BG's arm with my hands and then suddenly pulling down while removing my feet from the floor... extremely few guys would be able to hold my weight with only one arm... ran it by a friend (unfortunately not local) with a lot of martial arts experience, he said BG would likely go down but take me with him, Very Not Good, so I discarded the idea. You seem to be recommending a way to force BG to hold my weight but with my feet still on the floor, how exactly is this "dropping one's weight" accomplished?

OK, so bad guy is behind you and has his arms wrapped around you (bear hug). He's fixing to drag you off in to the dark to do whatever he wants to you. When you drop your weight suddenly and raise your arms (think - bending them at the elbows), it shrugs his arms off of you up and over your shoulders.

Basically you're creating downward movement - something he could normally counter by squeezing harder. But in this case your arms are used to leverage his arms up and over.

You asked about a headlock from the rear. (Rear naked choke)

If the bad guy grabs you around the NECK, as you mentioned above, you still have your arms free. Draw and shoot behind you - blind, if you must. Press the gun until it stops and pull the trigger, you'll hit something.

DO NOT hesitate as if someone really has a good choke on you and knows what they are doing from the time you feel the arm around your neck until you lose consciousness might only be 10-15 seconds. If the carotids / jugular are cut off your brain only has a few seconds before you're out. You MIGHT be in the lucky 50% of the population that has a fully intact circle of willis in your brain, and that might buy you a bit more time as the vertebral arteries continue to feed your brain some blood (and hence, O2), but it won't be enough to keep you functioning long with both carotids clamped off. They just aren't big enough pipes to handle the volume of both.

Also worrysome is sharply squeezing the carotids can cause your heart to fibrillate - which is why carotid massage (a vagal technique to get a racing tachycardic heart to slow down) is only done in the ER by doctors under tightly controlled conditions with a crash cart nearby.

Moral of the story is if you're being choked you have very precious little time to respond before you're unconscious and/or dead. My unofficial (non-legal) advice, go directly to lethal force so you're still with us all tomorrow...

Being that I am very short (now under 5'1"), to get BG's ribs I'd have to elbow up as well as back. Just tried this and can only get about 5" elevation, would that be enough? Also, is there a trick to get more force into the move?

Rotate your hips to get more power in to the blow. Raise your right elbow shoulder (chin) height in front of you, with your fist pointed back at your left shoulder and as you sharply pivot your hips to the right you strike with the pointy end against the ribs (turn your head to the right and use your peripheral vision to aim).

If executed correctly and targeted properly, you'll hear a sound not quite unlike a branch cracking on the guy behind you as the rib breaks.

It takes supervised practice to get right.

Larynx would be easier than eyes -- lower, a bigger target, and no psychological factor to overcome. Assume outside edge of hand/forearm would be what to use?

Use anything. Literally anything.

Fingertips can work if your hand is rigidly extended. Your thumb and first two fingers can crush the larynx. A fist can do it (smaller womens fists are much better at this, actually, more pounds per square inch when they impact). Any open hand strike can do it but be sure to keep your hand rigid so you don't break things on YOU.

Another great spot which doesn't require a lot of strength - follow your throat down with your first two fingers, until it meets the V where the collar bones come together. Now push - gently - It'll hurt like a bastard if you are in the right spot. That part of the throat is very delicate and there's a nerve cluster there. You won't quickly disable someone with it, but it's an easy spot to find with your thumb if you are tangled up with someone. You push hard there and they won't be able to think about ANYTHING else other than "oh my god that hurts and I can't breathe".

It's very, very uncomfortable, and if you hold it for a couple minutes they'll die of asphyxiation. You won't have that long iin a fight - it's more of a distraction than anything so you can do something more worthwhile (like get away when they let go of you to get your thumb off their windpipe). It doesn't take a great deal of strength to compress but it's incredibly painful and brings out the "I'm going to die" instinct in people associated with not being able to breathe. They have no choice but to respond to it.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Thank you is inadequate, but thank you very much for the very exact information. I'm printing it out to incorporate the movements into my daily exercise routine and to memorize everything you wrote.

 

[Librarian]

Another great spot which doesn't require a lot of strength - follow your throat down with your first two fingers, until it meets the V where the collar bones come together. Now push - gently - It'll hurt like a bastard if you are in the right spot. That part of the throat is very delicate and there's a nerve cluster there. You won't quickly disable someone with it, but it's an easy spot to find with your thumb if you are tangled up with someone. You push hard there and they won't be able to think about ANYTHING else other than "oh my god that hurts and I can't breathe"..

My favorite easy to teach pressure-point.

It's available as a pain-compliance technique all along the clavicle (better more medially); imagine your forefinger and middle finger 'diving down' behind the clavicle. If you watch the Secret Service escorting the President through a crowd, occasionally you'll see an agent use that to move someone back.

Its effect diminishes with continued application - the body adapts.

 

[Trent]

Its effect diminishes with continued application - the body adapts.

Yes, this is very true, and that's an excellent point. Earlier in the thread I recommended other targets be a higher priority than groin strikes for the same reason. Adrenaline changes responses, drugs can change responses, etc.

Just as the nerves in my fingertips eventually deaden from playing guitar, so do other sensitive areas of your body if they are subjected to repeated abuse.

I'd post a picture of how the Asian buddhist / martial artist monks "de-sensitize" their genitals to pain, but can't without violating rules. You guys are perfectly capable of researching that on your own.

The main point here is what most folks would think as "high priority targets" are not really useful in a life or death fight. Groin is foremost on those. Man's genitals can withstand 200+ lb-ft of pressure before crushing. Most joints are 1/10th that to fracture, and things such as throat are 1/100th of that.

You punch someone in the throat there's a more than fair chance they're going to die. A girl in my hometown died in exactly that way a decade and a half ago, when her boyfriend hit her. Crushed her larynx. Then took her body out in to the country, shoved her in a culvert, and poured acid all over the remains. He was spotted driving her car around a few days after she was reported missing by her family, arrested, finally the body was discovered and he confessed, and was charged with murder. The coroner initially had a heck of a hard time positively identifying the body because it was so badly decomposed after only a week or two.

There's evil people out there, and you can die in hand to hand fights, before you have a chance to lay a hand on your gun to draw it.

Learn how to fight.