Close Quarters

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Strambo:
training in an extremely efficient and effective manner

I definitely understand the advantage of learning this stuff, however on some level I wonder whether such training would be safe for someone like me, an old lady with physical issues. Still I would be interested to at least investigate -- do we have a list of where such training is available in various parts of the country? If not could one be started?
 
Strambo:

I definitely understand the advantage of learning this stuff, however on some level I wonder whether such training would be safe for someone like me, an old lady with physical issues. Still I would be interested to at least investigate -- do we have a list of where such training is available in various parts of the country? If not could one be started?

I'll just leave this here. It's my buddy Tim getting boxed in the ear in his suit by an old lady.

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Another Fight Back free public clinic we ran showing a rear grab escape;

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The scenarios are simple, different types of common attacks (rear grab, front tackle, grab of your hair, etc) and the techniques easy to learn. It's not especially physically demanding.

Like I said, that was from a free saturday clinic, run in conjunction with local health clubs and the YWCA and affiliated groups like that. There wasn't even any cost involved.

Similar to NRA's "women on target" clinics these are simply designed to teach women to fight back and give some basic tools to get you out of bad spots.

All you really need to do is buy yourself 2 seconds so you can get to your gun.

Young, old, doesn't matter, anyone can do the stuff. Doesn't take big muscles to escape a hold - just some knowledge on HOW. Doesn't take big muscles to break a person - just need to know where to apply hard parts to their soft bits.. :)
 
All you really need to do is buy yourself 2 seconds so you can get to your gun.

Exactly. You aren't training to be a cage fighter. That elderly woman in the photo would probably get destroyed by the guy in the suit...if she stuck around to fight it out on his terms. A surprise jab by someone who isn't expected to fight back might be just enough to make a little space to deploy pepper spray or firearm if needed though.
 
Something like that would be good.

Note that there is no concealed carry here for regular people, so unfortunately the part about really only needing to get myself 2 seconds to get to my gun doesn't apply on the street.
 
What I train is called "Target Focus Training". http://www.targetfocustraining.com/

Unfortunately, it isn't the type of thing where you pop into a local location. They have training DVDs (reasonable $$), live courses (expensive $$$) and online training (very reasonable $). The online training has all the lessons, a forum, and a partner board to hopefully find a training partner in your area and is what I'd recommend.

The other options are the local self-defense seminars which are usually very reasonably priced...but...the quality of materials and instruction can vary from great (like what Trent posted) to borderline clueless. The problem is almost nobody cares about self defense training. They'll send their kids to Taekwondo and maybe buy a gun, that's about it. So, the few who do are starved for good local options. The local options are for hobbyist; traditional martial arts training or MMA. Nothing wrong with that, but it isn't an efficient way to learn personal protection.

Anyway TFT is all about using your body weight (not strength) to cause injuries. Here is a perfect example of what you would be learning to do...on purpose.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BKNbO4sjoaH/ Not for the squeamish, but there isn't any blood or anything.

Oh, I've taught a class at my Church to include elderly women and it was fine. You just participate as you can.
 
What I train is called "Target Focus Training". http://www.targetfocustraining.com/

Thanks very much. :) So looking around on their site I see they thoughtfully include a page on what physical condition a person needs to be in. Stand on one foot, thankfully no problem, I include exercises standing on one foot in my daily routine. Be able to get up and down off the floor repeatedly using not more than 3 limbs, much more of a problem. I should find a video showing how to get up off the floor without using one's arms and see if I could master it, generally in everyday life I just do not get on the floor unless it's absolutely necessary because getting up is very ungainly. Plus they say you have to be able to be physical a whole day, I'm probably not good for more than about 2 hours max although I'm working on improving that.

Unfortunately, it isn't the type of thing where you pop into a local location. They have training DVDs (reasonable $$), live courses (expensive $$$) and online training (very reasonable $). The online training has all the lessons, a forum, and a partner board to hopefully find a training partner in your area and is what I'd recommend.
Given my physical issues I think in a perfect world the ideal solution would be private lessons with someone knowledgable enough to figure out what *I* could do effectively in various scenarios, given my personal plusses and minuses.

The other options are the local self-defense seminars which are usually very reasonably priced...but...the quality of materials and instruction can vary from great (like what Trent posted) to borderline clueless. The problem is almost nobody cares about self defense training. They'll send their kids to Taekwondo and maybe buy a gun, that's about it. So, the few who do are starved for good local options. The local options are for hobbyist; traditional martial arts training or MMA. Nothing wrong with that, but it isn't an efficient way to learn personal protection.
I saw a martial arts studio near me that got very good reviews etc, went to the site, among other things they have rules listed that include requiring kneeling as part of the instruction ritual. Kneeling is painful for me, much less having to do it for no actual self-defense reason.

I did also find another organization that looks promising, I need to contact them for full information.

Anyway TFT is all about using your body weight (not strength) to cause injuries. Here is a perfect example of what you would be learning to do...on purpose.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BKNbO4sjoaH/ Not for the squeamish, but there isn't any blood or anything.

Some months ago another THR member told me I should learn to stick my thumbs in an assailant's eyes, holding his face with my other fingers, and said I could train this by getting a styrofoam head and using grapes for the eyes. I bought the styrofoam head but that was as far as I got. I have to admit, I have a strong psychological aversion to sticking a finger or car key into someone's eye even though of course I completely understand intellectually that if the alternative is getting killed it would be the right thing to do. By contrast I would not hesitate to shoot someone or use a knife, in fact I recently purchased and wear one. Something about the eyes is different in my mind, unless I could change that I think it would be unwise to plan on doing it, because in a self-defense situation you can't hesitate (as your famous squirrel saying points out). Aside from that, just practically I have to wonder how physically feasible it would be when the assailant is likely to be considerably taller than me and with a correspondingly longer reach. I am now under 5'1" (and shrinking).

Oh, I've taught a class at my Church to include elderly women and it was fine. You just participate as you can.
 
Thanks very much. :) So looking around on their site I see they thoughtfully include a page on what physical condition a person needs to be in. Stand on one foot, thankfully no problem, I include exercises standing on one foot in my daily routine. Be able to get up and down off the floor repeatedly using not more than 3 limbs, much more of a problem. I should find a video showing how to get up off the floor without using one's arms and see if I could master it, generally in everyday life I just do not get on the floor unless it's absolutely necessary because getting up is very ungainly. Plus they say you have to be able to be physical a whole day, I'm probably not good for more than about 2 hours max although I'm working on improving that.

Yeah, 2 days of training would probably be too much. Note, that is only required to train, actually doing it to someone else doesn't require much (they are the ones going down!)


Some months ago another THR member told me I should learn to stick my thumbs in an assailant's eyes, holding his face with my other fingers, and said I could train this by getting a styrofoam head and using grapes for the eyes. I bought the styrofoam head but that was as far as I got. I have to admit, I have a strong psychological aversion to sticking a finger or car key into someone's eye even though of course I completely understand intellectually that if the alternative is getting killed it would be the right thing to do. By contrast I would not hesitate to shoot someone or use a knife, in fact I recently purchased and wear one. Something about the eyes is different in my mind, unless I could change that I think it would be unwise to plan on doing it, because in a self-defense situation you can't hesitate (as your famous squirrel saying points out). Aside from that, just practically I have to wonder how physically feasible it would be when the assailant is likely to be considerably taller than me and with a correspondingly longer reach. I am now under 5'1" (and shrinking).

First bolded issue; all normally well-socialized people have a strong aversion to this and other high-injury methods. The traditional training approach is to start with more innocuous stuff and stair-step up to the lethal stuff. Works horribly from a training perspective. TFT starts at the high-injury and lethal stuff (usually the eyes, from 4 different angles and methods) to get over that aversion right off the bat, then the rest is easy. Technically, the way training and the sub-conscious work...you probably don't have to have the psychological fortitude to gouge someone's eyes in a real event if you have gone through the motions to train it. In that life or death moment, if an eye is available, your sub-conscious will see that and you'll do it w/o much conscious process. When you haven't trained it, now your subconscious and conscious mind is going through a decision process to decide what to do.

That segways into bolded part #2. I only picked that example because it is a great visual of the only goal any time you move in a lethal encounter. Injure them (stop when are no longer a threat to include they run or stop what they are doing). Tools, targets, methods don't matter, just the end result of them being injured (not "hit" or bruised, a body part not working anymore).

So, you worry about the eye not being available. That's easy and takes care of itself, if you can't reach it, then you wouldn't try to. You would go for what is available. When you train this way, some vulnerable part of their anatomy is always accessible and your sub-conscious will key in on that. Then, you throw yourself at them and make contact with that vulnerable anatomy with a hard part of you. Could be as simple as stomping their ankle or slapping the groin (like you are bowling, which would double them over...giving you access to the eye ;) )

If you are ever going to be in the Portland metro area, pm me and I'd give you a private lesson no charge. I know it's a long shot.

My new training partner is scheduled for hip surgery so he can't go down and get up either, we are still going to train based on what he can do.
 
Training is a great idea, but you may just severely piss off your attacker but hurting him. I am getting older and have no business fighting with a younger man, especially one with a knife. One of the reasons I carry is because I used to be a tough guy and am not anymore. I do not want to get busted up in a fight but would hate to put someone down for wanting my wallet. On another note I believe some of the unsolved murders are folks who shoot the assailant and just walk away. That is one way to avoid the jury. I was in a gun store last week and an older couple was walking around with the pistols on their waist bands, i.e. displayed. I hope they do not do that in public as they are begging for someone to take them away from them. I do not get the knife thing unless that is all I have. A slap to the temple with a handgun or half a dozen rounds against the torso is going to slow an assailant down faster than stab wounds. All the two handed pistol crap on tv does not help anyone either...pull and shoot...like tuco. ha
 
Training is a great idea, but you may just severely piss off your attacker but hurting him. I am getting older and have no business fighting with a younger man, especially one with a knife. One of the reasons I carry is because I used to be a tough guy and am not anymore. I do not want to get busted up in a fight but would hate to put someone down for wanting my wallet. On another note I believe some of the unsolved murders are folks who shoot the assailant and just walk away. That is one way to avoid the jury. I was in a gun store last week and an older couple was walking around with the pistols on their waist bands, i.e. displayed. I hope they do not do that in public as they are begging for someone to take them away from them. I do not get the knife thing unless that is all I have. A slap to the temple with a handgun or half a dozen rounds against the torso is going to slow an assailant down faster than stab wounds. All the two handed pistol crap on tv does not help anyone either...pull and shoot...like tuco. ha

If you are going to use a tool, certainly use the best tool you have. If that's a gun, great! H2H is at a minimum...for those times when you either a) don't have a tool, or b) can't get to it in the moment. In those cases you have no choice but to go hands on, it doesn't matter how old or weak you are. Sort it out or it sorts you.

I think that is a big (and dangerous) misnomer...that younger and fit people with training can choose to go H2H and older folks can't (dangerous for both those who engage when they shouldn't and for the "older" who resign themselves to "I can't"). Well, I'm still fairly young and way fitter and way better trained than average...but I have never chosen to get into a fight (never have been in one) and I also have no business getting into a fight with a younger (or older) man. My H2H training is for the exact same reason as my firearms training, when I have no other resort. I hope I get to live the rest of my life with firearms and H2H training being just a hobby I'll never need.

At a minimum, every person who carries a gun should also practice some very basic strikes both with, and without, the gun. With gun: muzzle-punch to sternum and solar plexus. Muzzle-punch to throat. Without gun: Heel-palm to chin. Claw to eyes. Forearm to throat. Forearm to side of neck (actually where the cartoid artery runs). Extra credit: knee to groin, kick to groin, slap or grab groin. Stomp to knee, stomp to ankle.

If you do these simple strikes stepping in with all your weight behind it, so that when the strike is complete you are standing where their feet were...they are devastating. Anyone, of any age, can train these and execute them. Requires no special coordination, strength, balance, or going to the ground.

If anyone cares to look at the image link I posted earlier, that is what you get when you step in with all your weight and claw the eye. Your finger(s) wet to the 1st knuckle.
 
strambo:
Thanks very much for the detailed reply. So far I think the most doable suggestion for me in this thread is kicking BG in the knee. If one has a choice, which part of the knee is most vulnerable? Not sure what you mean by stomping an ankle, do you mean the top of the foot or the actual ankle, if the latter how would you do that if BG is standing up?
 
Training is a great idea, but you may just severely piss off your attacker but hurting him. I am getting older and have no business fighting with a younger man, especially one with a knife. One of the reasons I carry is because I used to be a tough guy and am not anymore. I do not want to get busted up in a fight but would hate to put someone down for wanting my wallet. On another note I believe some of the unsolved murders are folks who shoot the assailant and just walk away. That is one way to avoid the jury. I was in a gun store last week and an older couple was walking around with the pistols on their waist bands, i.e. displayed. I hope they do not do that in public as they are begging for someone to take them away from them. I do not get the knife thing unless that is all I have. A slap to the temple with a handgun or half a dozen rounds against the torso is going to slow an assailant down faster than stab wounds. All the two handed pistol crap on tv does not help anyone either...pull and shoot...like tuco. ha
A wallet grabber is what I call a "rational" criminal, he just wants money. I would throw my purse as hard as I could in the opposite direction of the closest business or other safe place, and run as best as I could to the safe place.

Re using a knife, I didn't think of it until I was discussing possible home defense scenarios with a knowledgeable friend. A very scary possible scenario is a BG approaching while I am in the garage. My friend agreed that I should shoot if a warning is ignored, then asked what I would do if I am not successful. This will probably be amusing to people here but it had not occurred to me that I might miss or BG might be on drugs or something and just keep coming after being shot, so I decided a knife would be an appropriate backup weapon in the case of attempted rape. (A few years ago there was an old lady around here who was raped while doing laundry in her garage [in the daytime BTW], so unfortunately this is not an impossible scenario.) If BG is G-d forbid close enough to be trying to commit rape he will be close enough to use a knife on.
 
I think a lot of folks here are thinking that when folks like me are talking about hand to hand fighting and firearms, they think we're talking about getting in to a 10 round slug-it-out fist fight with the other guy.

That's not at all what we are talking about. Particularly for older folks who can't take a beating.

You don't need to train 5 or 10 or 20 years and become a master of a particular discipline of fighting. You just need to know some very basic "I need to find 2 seconds to get my gun out so I can use it."

And that might be something as simple as stepping aside at the last moment when you're rushed, to trip them. Knowing how to escape out of a grasp if someone bigger suddenly grabs you from behind. Knowing how to block a punch with your off hand while you draw with your strong arm. Using your off arm locked out in front of you, as a stand-off, to someone trying to grab you, while blading your shoulders back so you can draw without them seeing you do it (or being able to reach your gun if they do see you.)

Because these things involve very specific timing and distance and muscle memory to avoid screwing it up royally when you need it, you DO need to practice that stuff with a partner, while someone who knows what the hell they are doing can watch and make corrections and give feedback as you go.

That takes a minimum of three people in the room - you, a partner, and an instructor that knows what they are doing.

You can't learn that from a book, or from watching videos.

I can watch videos on building an acoustic guitar from scratch but it sure as heck doesn't mean I'll be able to do it. Not without a lot of practice and (if I expect to get good) that practice better be as an apprentice to someone who has mastered that particular art of guitar building.

You can learn HOW something is done by reading a book or by watching videos but you sure as heck won't have a clue on how to do it unless you're paired up with someone. And neither of you will get proficient or particularly skilled unless there's someone more skilled than you in the room watching and giving you feedback, because you can't SEE the mistakes you are making through your own eyes. And even if you use a wall of mirrors in the room with your training partner, if neither of you know what you are doing, then neither of you would have a clue as to what to look for to realize you were making a mistake.

E.g. folks who read the above might think "oh it's not that hard to hold your arm out to block someone from getting ahold of you"... If you don't know how to set a nice deep stance, holding your arm out to stop someone from closing on you while your other arm goes for the gun, you're just gonna end up on the ground in a pile together because you don't have a foundation.

If you haven't practiced the timing on how to step aside and trip someone rushing at you, if you don't have a good poker face, you'll telegraph your intention to step aside and they'll just track right in to you as you step aside.

If you don't know how to escape from a rear bear hug or headlock, you AREN'T getting out of it. Getting out of those is simple and doesn't require much of any strength. But if you don't know and haven't practiced how (along with what to do IMMEDIATELY after so you don't get hit in the back of the head, or worse), it won't do you a damn bit of good in a scrap.

It doesn't matter to me one bit if folks decide to learn to take care of themselves, or just choose to get through life with blind luck and good hopes. That's their problem.

Just seems insane to me for folks to go around strapped without any clue on how to survive 2 seconds in a 'close encounter' so they can stand a snowballs chance to even get their gun out.

The moment you suddenly discover you are in a fight someday, if you are ever attacked, all you are doing is supplying the criminal with a free handgun they can pick up off of your unconscious bleeding body after they've worked their way with you. There's no way you'll get the gun out if they are on top of you before you see them coming.

And it's not like you can go through your entire life staying 21 feet away from blind corners and doorways and bushes while taking the doggie for a walk or whatever. (Plus not to mention you don't have eyes in the back of your head, to see perfect 360 degrees constantly, to not get rushed from behind.)

Anyway I've given the best advice I can in this thread. Advice is free, and everyone has the freedom and right to choose how to go about life however the heck they want to. Not my place to judge for bad (or reckless) decisions.

Sometimes I just can't help but scratch my head, though, before I go back about my own business. :)

Maybe those who 'opt out' of getting serious about personal self-defense will get lucky and you'll get one of those 'perfect encounters' where you see the bad guy a mile away and have all the time in the world to avoid, escape, or get to your piece.

Hundreds of thousands of folks get attacked each year and more often than not, they never see it coming. Humans are intelligent apex predators. Don't forget that. As much as you prepare to defend yourself, you can never guarantee you won't get caught off guard and have to fight, bite, and break your way back to a superior position with everything you've got at your disposal to get out alive.

The more you have trained, and not just with guns, the more options you have. It's as simple as that.
 
You don't need to train 5 or 10 or 20 years and become a master of a particular discipline of fighting. You just need to know some very basic "I need to find 2 seconds to get my gun out so I can use it."

Because these things involve very specific timing and distance and muscle memory to avoid screwing it up royally when you need it, you DO need to practice that stuff with a partner, while someone who knows what the hell they are doing can watch and make corrections and give feedback as you go.

That takes a minimum of three people in the room - you, a partner, and an instructor that knows what they are doing.

Therein lies the problem for some. You are not going to achieve muscle memory from a one or two day class- it is going to take some time and probably money to do so. That is assuming that the person even has access to a suitable training facility in their area. Speaking of people who are older and/or have physical conditions, the potential for injury during training may outweigh the odds of having to use a hand to hand technique for defense. And if they don't have the strength or agility to practice a technique the way it needs to be done on the street, that training may also be of limited value.

The point that a gun is not always an appropriate or possible response and that other skills are a good idea is well taken, but it is not always that easy.
 
Therein lies the problem for some. You are not going to achieve muscle memory from a one or two day class- it is going to take some time and probably money to do so. That is assuming that the person even has access to a suitable training facility in their area. Speaking of people who are older and/or have physical conditions, the potential for injury during training may outweigh the odds of having to use a hand to hand technique for defense. And if they don't have the strength or agility to practice a technique the way it needs to be done on the street, that training may also be of limited value.

The point that a gun is not always an appropriate or possible response and that other skills are a good idea is well taken, but it is not always that easy.
That's a valid point. However, one could chip away at that logic to the point that carrying at all wouldn't make any sense. For example, someone with cardiovascular or heart conditions might just as well have a heart attack before being able to even draw their gun in a real world scenario.

IMHO if one has the strength to train reasonably with anything of a worthwhile caliber without the gun flying out of their hands, then they should have the strength to perform some very basic hand to hand techniques.



I REALLY hope I'm not offending any elders on here, that is not my intent. I think everyone needs to access their own situation and go from there.


Just food for thought.
 
strambo:
Thanks very much for the detailed reply. So far I think the most doable suggestion for me in this thread is kicking BG in the knee. If one has a choice, which part of the knee is most vulnerable? Not sure what you mean by stomping an ankle, do you mean the top of the foot or the actual ankle, if the latter how would you do that if BG is standing up?

If you are going to kick the knee, kick with the ball of the foot to the front of the knee just under the patella. I prefer to stomp the knee with the blade edge of my foot with all my weight so it ends with them on the ground and me standing on their knee. This is easiest from the outside angle or from the rear.

Regarding the ankle stomp-same as knee stomp. The target is just above the ankle ball (maleolus). Stomp through from the outside or inside and it ends with you standing on their ankle on the ground.

The ankle or knee stomps work best to put them on the ground after another injury. For example, claw the eye, knee the groin, stomp the knee (or ankle).
 
Therein lies the problem for some. You are not going to achieve muscle memory from a one or two day class- it is going to take some time and probably money to do so. That is assuming that the person even has access to a suitable training facility in their area. Speaking of people who are older and/or have physical conditions, the potential for injury during training may outweigh the odds of having to use a hand to hand technique for defense. And if they don't have the strength or agility to practice a technique the way it needs to be done on the street, that training may also be of limited value.

The point that a gun is not always an appropriate or possible response and that other skills are a good idea is well taken, but it is not always that easy.

Oh I definitely agree with you on this.

There comes a point in your life where physical conflict, even of a limited nature, can easily and severely damage a person. A 70 year old woman with osteoperosis would be a bad idea in a self defense class - the risk of bone fracture just doing warmups or stretching exercises would be way too high. Heart conditions, past physical damage or trauma, etc all could make it impossible for a person to realistically put any effort in to self defense training.

This is why the "reasonable man" discussion above is so very relevant, with regards to an elderly person going for their gun against a younger, UNARMED attacker. Depending on circumstances of the individual, taking a single punch might very well be a lethal proposition for an elderly person.

(Whereas a 40 year old male in good health should be able to take a pretty solid hit and wouldn't be justified in escalating to lethal force...)

It's best if folks build a baseline skill well before your golden years. But in some regards there is still some viable things you can learn regardless of your age or physical condition. You don't have to buy MUCH time. Just a little is enough to get to your gun.

In the case of an elderly person any physical conflict already *has* escalated to the level of lethal force as defined by the "fear of severe bodily injury or death."

For elderly folks, you would need a very responsible instructor who took the time to go over your full medical history, evaluation of your physical condition and capabilities, who could then tailor some specific regimen to your exact situation. Very much a one-on-one proposition, or at most small group seminars.

That is where someone could learn to effectively utilize a cane, etc in self defense.

Muscle memory is important from a proficient, "always repeatable" standpoint. When your fight or flight kicks in and your brain switches to survival mode, your body reverts to a base level of motor coordination and your very patterns of thinking change.

Of course any shooter should know or learn this at some point - this is why good firearms self defense instructors teach things the way they do (slide manipulation using the palm and fingers, instead of pinching with the fingers, etc). Anything that can be done with "gross" motor coordination skills should be, since you lose so much fine motor coordination during an adrenaline dump.

Physical training is very similar in that you can only rely on techniques that use gross motor coordination, OR techniques that have been ingrained deeply in to muscle memory, if they involve fine motor coordination.

Any technique (physical motion) which involves fine motor coordination which has NOT been committed to muscle memory is useless during a confrontation. You just won't have the coordination to put it together and have it "on target".

(Think "reloading under stress", or how first-time competitive shooters universally and suddenly realize "man I suck at this" when they go to their first competitive shoot and get the stress of the buzzer going off.)

Anyway partner practice is needed to get the sense of timing built up. Without a solid grip on timing (a natural feel for it), you'll miss more often than not.

I actually have a video handy that covers a few timing concepts, from a friendly impromptu bought with my brother. We were playing dungeons & dragons and he was going on and on about how an unarmed person stands no chance against a person with a weapon, and how if you put a weapon in his hands (any weapon) he could take me out.

We went in to a lengthy discussion / debate about timing concepts and did a series of drills to discuss go no sen, sen no sen, and sensen no sen. (Japanese concepts on timing of attacks or counterattacks). He absolutely would not believe that in sensen no sen, I could actively make him attack me in just the way I wanted him to. :)

Go no sen is your classic "block and counter".

Sen no sen is acting before your opponent, seizing the initiative. You sense your opponent is about to act (through telegraphing, whatever) and you seize the opportunity to strike faster, first.

Sensen no sen is a bit more refined. You subconsciously provoke your opponent to attack just the way you want them to. You "draw" the attack so that you can execute your technique taking advantage of their body motions, that you got them to make.

I happened to have a training tomahawk in the room (useful as a prop when playing) so one thing led to another and ... (I'm the long haired hippy guy, my brother has the tomahawk)



Now when things DO happen they happen so impossibly fast you can't see what is going on unless you step through the video and freeze frame them.

I leave an opening in my guard while using my front foot to feint a foot sweep. This draws an attack from him using the tomahawk.

apOnHuZl.jpg


I immediately push off of my loaded, sprung back leg as he initiates his upper level attack (which I'd coerced out of him), while gently tapping his attacking hand with my front hand to deflect the tomahawk away from hitting my head.

rslVA19l.jpg


Note that the sudden forward momentum I built generates a defensive posture on his part which I use to trap the weapon.

BLdWoR7l.jpg


If this were a street fight he would have been closely introduced to my knee at this point. :)

But it's a friendly bought between brothers so I execute a guillotine instead. Weapon is out of play at this point with my arm knocking it up as I moved forward; it will then be trapped under my left arm as I execute the guillotine.

2qjM9BTl.jpg


Now the weapon is trapped and the guillotine is executed - he shoves forward just as I was about to arch my back, but it only makes his predicament worse. To escape a guillotine against a right handed opponent you have to rotate your entire body counter clockwise and there's no room for him to do it. I didn't even need to complete the guard to get a submission from him. (Keeping his legs up and off the ground also prevents him from getting any traction to try to rotate out of it, and keeps his weight on his head which is rather damn uncomfortable for him.)

xXPJGWal.jpg


Anyway since the dogs got in the way it took me 13 seconds to submit him while he was armed, which was 3 more seconds than I told him it would take while he was so busy bragging for 15 minutes about his prowess with handheld weapons. At least he tapped when I said to, saved him from waking up a few minutes later with a nasty headache.

The point of this is to show how timing MUST be fully integrated in to you so that you can act naturally, and without thought. It's difficult enough to explain in writing. It's even pretty difficult to explain with a reference video and freeze frame! But should give some idea of how tiny things happen in milliseconds which direct the course of a struggle.

Human reaction time is .2 seconds give or take - if you have to wait for your brain to decide how to react to something, you lose. If you are able to act naturally through training you can move freely.

"Mind like the moon" is the Asian concept - no surface thoughts, just here and now, allowing your body to react through conditioned responses which take absolutely no time to process. There's no "hiccups" in your actions, you can respond instinctively and immediately to things.

In other words, you *are* the weapon, there is no conscious involvement at any point to decide "I'm going to do this, or if I do this then x/y/z" - because in a hand to hand fight, you don't have time to think.

Anyway figured that'd be a useful demonstration / introduction to timing concepts.

Go no sen = he attacks, I block the tomahawk, and counter with a response. With no room to maneuver or use body shifting, that means I take an impact to something (arm, whatever).

Sen no sen = I feel he is about to attack, through telegraphing / etc, and execute a move to hit him before he can complete his move. I'd never hear the end of it from my mother if I jacked him in the face with a jab.. and he wasn't initiating an attack (while remaining a serious armed threat).. sooo...

Sensen no sen = opponent is a valid threat but they aren't swinging yet, just maneuvering or waiting for an opening. I provoke him to swing to create an opening while simultaneously executing my own attack against him using that opening.

You simply cannot get to that level of natural response or timing, and an ability to move freely and respond instinctively, without a lot of practice time with partners to get a firm grip on your own body and an innate feeling for the movement of an opponents body.

Again, if that were an actual fight I would have used my knee (hard part) against his face (soft part) instead of executing a submission - never EVER take a fight to the ground intentionally on the street. Period. Ever.

The moment you do is when the attackers friends jump in, you lose 100% of your perception of what's going on around you, and so on. If a fight hits the ground you do EVERYTHING you can to get back up on your feet again so you can be aware and respond to any other threats that develop.
 
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Therein lies the problem for some. You are not going to achieve muscle memory from a one or two day class- it is going to take some time and probably money to do so. That is assuming that the person even has access to a suitable training facility in their area. Speaking of people who are older and/or have physical conditions, the potential for injury during training may outweigh the odds of having to use a hand to hand technique for defense. And if they don't have the strength or agility to practice a technique the way it needs to be done on the street, that training may also be of limited value.

The point that a gun is not always an appropriate or possible response and that other skills are a good idea is well taken, but it is not always that easy.

You don't have to achieve unconscious competence (I don't like the term "muscle memory") under the watchful eye of an instructor. All you need to reach under an instructor is "conscious competence." The ability to do something properly when thinking about it. Then, you practice on your own to get the reps in to burn in the new neural pathway (unconscious competence.)

"Training" is when under the eye of a professional, you learn new skills. Then "practice" is how you get the reps in on your own to solidify those new skills. Then, the process repeats, more training for more skills (and/or refinement of current skills), more practice. Training has to come first, otherwise you are just practicing the wrong things, but all "practice" doesn't have to be under the eye of a professional trainer. That is cost-prohibitive in every case other than the traditional martial arts model.

Great point about the odds of injury in training for an elderly person could outweigh the odds of a violent encounter! I always train on the safety side of the envelope and have never had an injury more serious than a mild sprain (once). It never made sense to me to get injured in training trying to avoid injury in a violent event that may never happen. For the elderly, it results in a smaller training envelope, but there is a lot of effective things they can still do safely in most cases.

It also doesn't have to be nearly so complicated as Trent's post makes it out to be.

Sen no sen = I feel he is about to attack, through telegraphing / etc, and execute a move to hit him before he can complete his move. I'd never hear the end of it from my mother if I jacked him in the face with a jab.. and he wasn't initiating an attack (while remaining a serious armed threat).. sooo...

This is all I train, I'm not worried about their mothers. :neener:

No matter what they have or are doing, I just attack whatever vulnerable part of their body is most accessible. That's it.

*Trent, I really enjoy your posts, nothing above is meant to be a dig on you (good video), I just like discussing this sort of thing. The mothers comment is half light-hearted joke, but half serious and topical. You couldn't do the simplest and most devastating thing...because it was your brother.
 
LOL no worries man. :)

I'm less worried about my mother than I would be about my brother getting butt-hurt about something minor like a broken nose, and filing a complaint. Domestic battery is a lifetime loss of guns. :evil:
 
"Is there a threshold or point at which you would not deploy your sidearm, and instead resort to hand to hand, with the assumption your gun might do more harm than good?"

I also carry OC spray and a folding knife.

I think the OC spray is a good option for a violent physical encounter if you do not believe deadly force is necessary.
 
Oh I definitely agree with you on this.

There comes a point in your life where physical conflict, even of a limited nature, can easily and severely damage a person. A 70 year old woman with osteoperosis would be a bad idea in a self defense class - the risk of bone fracture just doing warmups or stretching exercises would be way too high.

I do have osteoporosis, that was a big part of why I said I wondered whether a self-defense class would be safe. It's also why I do those standing-on-one-foot exercises every day, I do not want to fall down. (And I don't just stand there, I do stuff with the other leg.)

It's best if folks build a baseline skill well before your golden years.

Yes. Unfortunately my generation of women never imagined that being able to do this kind of thing would be a good idea.

But in some regards there is still some viable things you can learn regardless of your age or physical condition. You don't have to buy MUCH time. Just a little is enough to get to your gun.

No concealed carry here. I'm happy I learned how to shoot but not happy that I'm still vulnerable away from my house. How stupid is this, I can't have the best equalizer with me. :banghead:

For elderly folks, you would need a very responsible instructor who took the time to go over your full medical history, evaluation of your physical condition and capabilities, who could then tailor some specific regimen to your exact situation. Very much a one-on-one proposition, or at most small group seminars.
That's what I said, I think private lessons would be the best choice if I could find an appropriate teacher. Everybody has SOME plusses they could use, but it would take a knowledgeable teacher to figure out the best options.

That is where someone could learn to effectively utilize a cane, etc in self defense.
When I first read about using a cane for self-defense (on THR shortly after I first came here), I imagined you get one that's heavy on the bottom and whack BG on the side of the neck... quickly found out that wasn't it at all, you want a light one (counter-intuitive but I guess that makes it easier to use) and use it lower on the body because BG would block a high-up attempt. I went looking for videos on the internet, saw martial arts types doing fancy twirling etc... also something called "Cane Fu" billed as suitable for seniors but could not find it near me.

You are right about that video, it's going so fast I can't even absorb what's happening.
 
If you are going to kick the knee, kick with the ball of the foot to the front of the knee just under the patella. I prefer to stomp the knee with the blade edge of my foot with all my weight so it ends with them on the ground and me standing on their knee. This is easiest from the outside angle or from the rear.
By blade edge do you mean the first or fifth metatarsal?

How do you get all your weight into the kick?

I did see a video once depicting a woman grabbed around the neck from behind, she kicked BG on the outside of the knee with the inside edge of her heel, it did destabilize him, but the video didn't continue to show what would happen after that.

Regarding the ankle stomp-same as knee stomp. The target is just above the ankle ball (maleolus). Stomp through from the outside or inside and it ends with you standing on their ankle on the ground.
Very good, thanks. Unlike knees, I did not know ankles were a vulnerable body part.

The ankle or knee stomps work best to put them on the ground after another injury. For example, claw the eye, knee the groin, stomp the knee (or ankle).
 
Training in hand to hand is VERY important. You can't just watch a few youtube videos and read a book: it must be trained into your brain. This is a very good video about hand to hand in general and BJJ in particular.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdMaGv_eV6M

With that said, if you are untrained or minimally trained in hand to hand and go up against someone who has had even six months of training in wrestling, BJJ, or other grappling arts, you more than likely will not be able to get your gun, knife, or other weapon. As the video says, it is like being in the middle of the ocean and not even knowing how to swim.

I have trained BJJ and there are higher belts than I that I stand absolutely no chance against. I can hold my own against the same belt color, will eventually lose against 1 belt color over me, and am toyed with by higher belts. I toy with people who have just come in with no experience, in much the same way a a cat plays with a mouse. They have absolutely no idea what to do.
 
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Originally posted by strambo
"Training" is when under the eye of a professional, you learn new skills. Then "practice" is how you get the reps in on your own to solidify those new skills. Then, the process repeats, more training for more skills (and/or refinement of current skills), more practice. Training has to come first, otherwise you are just practicing the wrong things, but all "practice" doesn't have to be under the eye of a professional trainer. That is cost-prohibitive in every case other than the traditional martial arts model.

True, but to be most effective, practice should involve a partner, i.e. sparring is superior to shadow boxing.
 
At any level of skill practice without a partner is beneficial but you still need a trainer to correct you as you improve, to help refine things, if you want to continue growing. Otherwise you'll hit a plateau where you are thinking you are doing everything right and you'll stop gaining skill. That, and you'll undoubtedly ingrain really, really bad habits in to your technique that will become incredibly difficult to fix once they're lodged in your muscle memory.

Over 30 years in martial arts and I'm still learning, refining and practicing - and I *still* very much need someone more skilled than I am to pick out the nuances of what I'm doing wrong. I have internal alarm bells that go off for all sorts of things that aren't right - but it takes someone more skilled to catch tiny but useful things, such as "you need to relax {whatever} more, or change this angle ever so slightly".

In traditional martial arts, a student that trains 2x a week can generally be expected to have a general proficiency (suitable for self defense) after 3-5 years of training (depending on personal aptitude). At an hour a class, figuring breaks for holidays, that's 300-500 hours before a student has "mastered the basics", generally recognized by taking and passing a a Dan grading (black belt). Some folks take longer - I've seen it take as long as 15 years before (usually because the person takes hiatus/breaks). I've never seen it done in under 3 years in my particular art.

Keep in mind - 300 to 500 hours just to "master the basics". And that's ALL it means! That doesn't mean you've mastered the art. That just means you have a solid grip on the BASICS of that art.

From a street fighting perspective, 300-500 hours means the person stands a reasonably good chance of winning in a fight against a person of their approximate size and build. (an untrained mirror of yourself). Against a bigger opponent, a trained opponent, multiple opponents, etc, it doesn't mean you stand a snowballs chance in hell. You *might* get lucky but you'll probably just get hurt against a physically superior adversary.

In our art -

1st dan is "I've mastered the basics." 3-5 years, minimum.

Only one in one thousand have the dedication to make it to that point. Only one in one thousand go on to continue training and receive higher ranks beyond 1st dan. (Not exact statistics but probably not far from the mark).

2nd dan is "I've internalized the basics." Another 2-3 years, minimum.

3rd dan is "I can apply the basics." Another 3-5 years, minimum.

Put in a few thousand hours of training and you can probably (no guarantees) take down someone bigger, younger, faster, or maybe two folks about your size & build. Our 3rd dan exams put candidates up against 2-3 brown and lower grade black belts - it's a fighting intensive dan rank. Until a person reaches that point they aren't REALLY combat effective.

With 8-13 years of training behind them folks who make it that far are very capable.


The moral of the story here is traditional martial arts require a HUGE commitment from the person and a level of interest and dedication on their part to train. It's certainly not for everyone. Nor would I recommend it as a go-to for anyone in this thread looking to learn the basics of combat! Traditional arts are as much (or more) about the art, and not so much about fighting. Sure, you learn to fight and you learn to fight VERY well, but it takes a lifetime commitment.

Most people aren't built for that. Most people won't do the same punch or kick or block 200,000 times and still be happy working on getting it "right". :)

While I'm not involved in any way, shape, or form with some of the newer training styles I do absolutely recognize their benefits and use.

Krav Maga is one that springs to the front of my mind.

It skips and strips out all of the traditional "art" and focuses on effective ways of breaking people in two.

That's not for me, personally I enjoy the traditional arts. I've incorporated all sorts of other things in to my own personal toolbox over the years (ground fighting, throws, submissions), but where I'm at home is putting on my white pajamas and doing a kata for the 15,000th time or working towards doing my 2 millionth reverse punch in to the makiwara in my basement, or working on the heavy bag.

So, from an effective, rapid learning, minimal time investment, self-defense proposition, I'd recommend Krav Maga. (That's not my style, but it'll get you the most bang for your buck / time commitment).

If you want to learn to refine your abilities beyond bare savagery, and don't mind the time investment - bonus points if you have a penchant for being part of a living history - a more traditional art might fit.

I'm partial to Japanese arts, those folks really knew how to put a world of hurt on others.. but every culture has some really great and interesting fighting styles. Every last one of them are worth exploring, if you have an interest in such things...
 
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Good Ol' Boy said:
Close Quarters
The "Do you carry with a round in the chamber" thread got me thinking. Is there a threshold or point at which you would not deploy your sidearm, and instead resort to hand to hand, with the assumption your gun might do more harm than good?

To be clear, I carry with a round in the chamber, but if you're engaged to the point you can't rack the slide I'm not sure I'd deploy my sidearm to begin with. Probably go for my knife, which is also always on me and easily dispatched one handed.

Obviously scenarios vary but in general what are your thoughts on the subject?

This is just a thought exercise for someone new to carrying.


1) Always carry with a round in the chamber.

2) Remember that a weapon is merely a tool.

3) Respond to the threat you face with whatever technique you believe will be most effective at that time.

For example, let's pretend that an armed car-jacker just jumped in front of your pickup truck... you could draw and defend yourself by shooting through the windshield, you could give up, or you could duck behind the relative safety of the engine block, and stomp on the accelerator pedal. Sometimes the gun in the right choice, sometimes it isn't. That determination can only be made by the person who is facing the specific nuances of any given threat, and you'll often have just a split second to make that decision.

If I can describe this via a personal example, I was contacting a suspicious party in reference to a disturbance call in the 'hood one night a number of years ago. This guy was within about two to three arms lengths of me when I contacted him, and initially seemed reasonable (I had little reason to increase the distance beyond this rather typical "reactionary gap"). He suddenly became more agitated, and as I moved in to place him in handcuffs he reached for a gun in his waistband; a gun I immediately saw as he lifted his shirt and reached for it. It was very much a split second decision, and I knew I could either fight or draw my gun and put rounds on the guy. In this instance the suspect's survival wasn't a concern, and my survival was.

But, I probably had at least 30 pounds or more in body weight on this subject, and he hadn't yet pulled the gun clear of his waistband. I was 100% justified in shooting this guy, but that didn't seem like the best option for me in this case (again, split seconds to do and decide everything I'm describing). Instead of going for my gun, I grabbed his gun hand with mine, and forced down on it, preventing him from drawing his firearm. I simultaneously delivered a solid punch to the face of the suspect, which redirected his energy from his firearm, and back toward trying to protect his face. He was quickly dropped with another follow-up strike, and I followed him to the ground with a couple more strikes, until I could safely secure him and his firearm. This wasn't a subtle arrest control tactic... this was me hitting the person as hard as I could, with the knowledge that he was trying to kill me.

As I describe that encounter to you I must caution you that I'm describing decisions that mostly had to be made at the subconscious level. I fought based on my training and experience, and didn't have time to consciously run through a checklist of ideas... I had mentally sized the individual up before making contact with him, as I do with all encounters I have at work, and I did what felt was the best course of action when it turned into a lethal force encounter. I won, he lost. He lived, but that was only because I felt that a hand-to-hand response gave ME the best chance of a favorable outcome in that specific situation, on that specific day. But, had I still been two to three arm's lengths away from this suspect (instead of stepping closer for handcuffing), I very well might of shot him instead of fighting him. Similarly, if he was a 270 pound linebacker, I doubt I would have tried to fight him for his gun... that very likely would have ended up in a close quarters shooting situation.

My point in sharing that story is simply to illustrate that very subtle differences in an encounter can make a huge difference in how someone chooses to respond to the threat. There wasn't a right or wrong way to end that encounter, per say, but an action had to be taken, and that was the action I took with that individual.

Anyway, with those points made, let me say that there are firearms training techniques used for close quarters (contact distance) shooting. It's hard to describe this sort of thing on the internet, but the concepts aren't hard to learn or practice, and they aren't some mystical type of "secret squirrel stuff".


Trent said:
Krav Maga is one that springs to the front of my mind.

We train Krav in my department, and I think it's a relatively effective system... it's effective because it covers encounters like I described above, and if you don't get a technique "perfect", you can still stay in the fight. I wasn't going to be trying a twist lock or some other type of joint manipulation on that armed suspect. I just hit him as hard as I could, repeatedly, until I gained the upper hand in the situation.
 
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