Up Close and Personal

[Rusty Shackleford]

Focusing on drawing your own gun while someone is grappling with you with a knife is a huge tactical mistake. If you ignore the knife, you will be FULL of holes and cuts and you'll be bleeding profusely at the minimum by the time you get your pistol out. If he has any knowledge of anatomy, you'll already be fatally wounded by the time your pistol is even in the game... IF you can get it in the game at that point.

Get a buddy and practice this with a sharpie marker and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. You need to get some control over that knife first and foremost if you are already wrapped up with them. You will not live after a situation like this otherwise. You might get him with your pistol, but you'll be bleeding out before you can get to a hospital.

I'm not being stubborn or confrontational. If you do not believe me, get a friend and try it with a marker. You'll be COVERED in sharpie marks by the time you get your pistol out!

The trick is to get control of his wrist, make sure he can't get a good base, THEN make some distance and try to get your pistol out. If you start to lose your grip on the wrist, ignore everything else and work on getting control of it again.

EDIT: A base in grappling/wrestling is where you get your power from. In general, that means the ground. Make sure he doesn't have anything firm to push off of and resist you and you'll be controlling the fight. It's the first thing you learn in ground fighting. If you have a good base, and he doesn't, you can easily manhandle someone with a lot more muscle than you. That is why Jiu Jitsu is a great tool for someone smaller.

 

[REAPER4206969]

 

[Zundfolge]

Frankly if I find myself in a grappling situation I'm going to wish I had an MP5K ... in 10mm ... with a beta mag.

 

[Bubba613]

50BMG single shot derringer. You aren't going to miss. He is going to go away.

Oh, yeah. What rusty Shackleford said. Pay attention to the knife or you'll get your face cut off.

 

[Girodin]

2. He has already drawn his knife...making this a deadly situation...

Which handgun system (revolver vs. auto), make and model, caliber, and carry position would YOU prefer? And why?

I have a grappling background which shapes my response but if he is on top with a knife out I think I would look to control that hand and probably look to sweep or otherwise deal with it (choke arm lock etc that allows me to maintain control over the weapon etc ground fighting is fluid and one cannot say what will be the best option). I think doing that would reduce my chances of getting stabbed/cut versus moving first for my gun. Also sweeping them gives you a position advantage If I could sweep and scramble up I could then draw and fire before that person could get up. At a minimum grappling allows one to easily make space to draw. IME, its shockingly easy to sweep non grapplers.

I would be very interested in the Suarez class. I know he was working with some of the dog brothers. I train with guys that train with them and they are very legit.

In grappling one common mantra is position (control) before submission. I think position and control before gun would be the case as well


Gabe with the Dog Brothers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fPL4f3Eqc

The fact that Gabe hooked up with them tells me a lot about the likely quality of the instruction coming out of that relationship.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

When I did this little exercise with a Marine friend of mine, I had a big long sharpie mark from ear to ear by the time I got a hand on the pistol grip. Before I could present it, he also had made several stab marks into my liver and kidney on my right side.

And after we got done with that, we tried something important with my 4:00 carry position... He was easily able to pin my arm behind me while I reached for it and then had complete free reign to stab me wherever. The only limit is the imagination. He could have stabbed me in the face, eyes, throat, groin, etc. and I still would have been between the muzzle and him. He could have completely scalped me before I got a shot off until I realized that the focus needed to be on controlling the knife/sharpie FIRST... and then working on the pistol.

And Girodin, that has been my experience as well. They are easy to sweep, easy to mount, easy to submit, and just generally pretty easy to control if they've never rolled before at all. The general case, of course. I was thinking along the same lines. Or if you were unarmed, you could get the mount, pin the knife arm to the ground, and then break that arm with a bent armbar. Even if they didn't drop the knife, they'd be fighting with a chickenwing on one side.

 

[1911 guy]

I'll stick with my full size, all steel 1911. If it comes out of battery, I'll beat 'em with it. Sure, an autoloader can come out of battery in a severe CQB situation. And a revolver can be hung up by the intended shootee grabbing the cylinder firmly. Both are resolved by pulling your arm away and pulling the trigger again.

 

[smince]

we tried something important with my 4:00 carry position... He was easily able to pin my arm behind me while I reached for it and then had complete free reign to stab me wherever.

One of the (many) reasons 4:00 carry is no longer for me.

I agree with Rusty that you won't know what you are able to do if you don't try it first. Any of this can be overcome with the correct training.

Sure, you want to control the gun or knife. Sure, you're probably going to end up on the ground.

Both Gabe and Tom Sotis (in the AMOK! course) told us that you will most likely end up shot or stabbed, which will also quite likely happen if you do nothing.

Reality sucks oftentimes.

 

[Girodin]

Both Gabe and Tom Sotis (in the AMOK! course) told us that you will most likely end up shot or stabbed, which will also quite likely happen if you do nothing.

The edged weapon training I have done has led me to believe this is the case. It is just very easy to end up getting cut or poked when trying to deal with someone with a knife or the like. Force on force training tends to be very enlightening IMHO.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

"Both Gabe and Tom Sotis (in the AMOK! course) told us that you will most likely end up shot or stabbed, which will also quite likely happen if you do nothing."

Out of curiosity, how long does it take before the average person goes into shock after something like this?

 

[JohnBiltz]

Depends, a kidney stab puts you in shock almost immediately. A slashed throat that got your artery, you would probably be dead so fast with so little body damage you'd never go into shock.

 

[Lord Teapot]

Consider this self-defense scenario...

1. You are already in grappling mode... (Yes, we all know that more situational awareness may have prevented this but...)

2. He has already drawn his knife...making this a deadly situation...

Which handgun system (revolver vs. auto), make and model, caliber, and carry position would YOU prefer? And why?

We all know that it depends on "personal preference"... So let's hear YOUR reasoning for why YOUR choice works for YOU.


The reason I ask is this...while I consider my G27 the ideal carry gun, I often wonder that in a close quarter grappling situation, would I be better served by my humble j-frame (which offers me better gripping quality and no reciprocating slide to worry about)?

if we're in grappling mode already i'm not sure, i was hoping situational awareness would keep that from occuring. although, i have a tendency to finger my .38 when in vulnerable situations/out alone or in sparsely populated areas, so that would probably be out and firing before we grappled for more than a quarter second or so.

 

[smince]

so that would probably be out and firing before we grappled for more than a quarter second or so.

Like any technique, it needs to be tested in an FOF scenario. Hope it works out for you.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

...i was hoping situational awareness would keep that from occuring...

When driving a car how many times have we been surprised at the sight of a police cruiser parked in a speed trap as we crested a hill or rounded a corner? The experience might be a practical measure of our general situation awareness when we're out and about.

 

[david58]

I simply consider grappling a major mistake - I am not terribly strong, very inexperienced fighter, have some significant joint issues - and hope that situational awareness will help me stay out of trouble. We all have decisions to make as we assess just what we will do for self defense, and I have had to base mine on not having to resort to hand-to-hand, just because I will simply get my a$$ handed to me if I'm lucky. I carry the gun I shoot best, and carry a useful folder and hope that my experience in manipulating it every day makes it something that might do in a pinch.
That's my story and I'm stickin to it.
Till someone talks me out of it.

 

[Girodin]

I simply consider grappling a major mistake - I am not terribly strong, very inexperienced fighter, have some significant joint issues - and hope that situational awareness will help me stay out of trouble.

That is one thing about when things get hands on. It is a physical endeavor at that point, there is no real way around that. Some people may have physical limitations. Sadly, many more are just unwilling to train in a way that will cause them discomfort. When there are limitations that come with age, injury disability, etc then one IMHO needs to work around them the best they can.

The OPs hypothetical situation sounds like to me one in which situational awareness didn't work. It doesn't seem like much of an answer to say that I will just hope that never happens but that is probably where the vast majority of people and even the vast majority of CCW holders are not. I'll readily admit I need to train more, actually a lot more on edged weapon stuff in close. However, it is is down the list on things I'm dedicating the limited training resources (namely time and then money) to right now.

Out of curiosity, how long does it take before the average person goes into shock after something like this?

I'm not a medical person but I do have some first hand experience with nasty knife wounds. I would have to imagine that it really depends on the wound location and severity.

 

[smince]

Sadly, many more are just unwilling to train in a way that will cause them discomfort.

While age and infirmities are one cause of not training this way, there is also the ego.

Rolling around on the ground in the mud getting dirty just isn't as sexy and satisfying as shooting tight groups with your $2000 1911

On situational awareness, I don't care who you are - you can't stay in yellow 24/7. Life just gets in the way sometimes. There are just too many daily distractions, and one can't very well live life without letting people get within thier comfort zone.

 

[uspJ]

On situational awareness, I don't care who you are - you can't stay in yellow 24/7. Life just gets in the way sometimes. There are just too many daily distractions, and one can't very well live life without letting people get within their comfort zone.

Well said Smince. Not only that there are times when your awareness of the situation will not change the events about to unfold. Yes, it's better to be aware than not to be but SA like guns are not the answer for every situation.

While age and infirmities are one cause of not training this way, there is also the ego.

Rolling around on the ground in the mud getting dirty just isn't as sexy and satisfying as shooting tight groups with your $2000 1911

Agreed, but there is also the factor of who you are training with. I know several people who have been injured (broken wrist, torn muscles and ligaments, and one that had to have shoulder surgery) from over zealous training partners. It's important to be realistic in your training, but training in that fashion can leave you in worse physical condition and limit your abilities when you may need them most.

 

[smince]

It's important to be realistic in your training, but training in that fashion can leave you in worse physical condition and limit your abilities when you may need them most.

That's why I would recommend professional (but not McDojo) training.

Of course, you also are correct that choosing a good training partner to practice is essential.

 

[daorhgih]

Let it hurt until it feels good.

I'm 73. We have a grandson who is E-5 Navy Master at Arms. When he comes home on leave he and I go a few gentle rounds a day implementing what he knows -- especially w the baton -- and I get a few old bones to move in modern ways. My best defense, based on my mobility and expected resistance, is to shove off HARD from an aggressor, take cover, and draw on the way to cover. My carry-gun is either G-21, or G-30. I don't like to think of a confrontation, but I will win it.

 

[Girodin]

Even professional training can have people that are overzealous, there is someone else there at least to help remind them to not be a spaz.

I am fortunate enough to be fairly selective about who I train with. Good training partners can go hard but also know how to minimize chances of injury. The fact is however that if you are doing serious training there is often going to be some risk of injury, its inherent to the nature of the activity. Not training smart can really up that risk though.

While age and infirmities are one cause of not training this way, there is also the ego.

Rolling around on the ground in the mud getting dirty just isn't as sexy and satisfying as shooting tight groups with your $2000 1911

I think that's true too, particularly when you add in that when you are new you are likely to get your butt handed to you for a while. I've seen more than one person not come back for that reason. I'm fond of the saying that humility is the catalyst to all learning.

 

[dogsoldier0513]

For the sake of 'playing along': S&W 296 in .44SPL loaded with Glaser Safety Slugs. In close-contact struggles such as the one you described, revolvers tend to be more reliable. The fact that the S&W 296 is a DAO snubby lends itself to easy CCW carry and easy use.

 

[david58]

Sadly, many more are just unwilling to train in a way that will cause them discomfort. When there are limitations that come with age, injury disability, etc then one IMHO needs to work around them the best they can.

LOL! Sadly, my most significant joint issue comes from just such training.

Not a medical person either, but you can plan to still get the hoo-haa beat out of you even if you manage to connect with your knife. Bleeding out from a knife or a gun wound can take a long time.

I do understand that my 24/7 condition yellow isn't maintainable. My point of view is that fighting with the intent of anything more than putting distance between me and the attacker is futile.

I used to coach soccer. The toughest kid I have ever known in my life played for me for 4 years. He was about 5-7 and weighed maybe 135. Kids 6' and 200 would come away the victim in collisions with this kid - nothing but bone and muscle and determination. And he was just a mini version of his dad. His dad is a cop, and probably could have been a bodybuilder if he wanted, w/o steroids.

This guy, this cop, related to me his feelings about fights. Basically, he got out of them as fast as he could, because he felt that in a real fight he was gassed in seconds. As he explained, it ain't like watching UFC or boxing, where there's a ref, rest in between rounds, and lots of dancing around. In a real life, life-and-death fight, it happens fast and if you ain't real good, you can get whupped.

When this guy described this to me (I was still in my sling from my self-defense surgery), I figgered I'd pass on the illusions of actually fighting someone with my hands. I'll of course engage if that is what has to happen, but I am under no illusions at all of it being what I would consider a "viable" option, just a necessary evil.

 

[Fred Fuller]

None of us like to admit to ourselves, as Southnarc puts it, that "Sometimes our awareness fails." But it happens.

Criminals are predators. They are usually going to do all they can to stack up every advantage they can before they engage their intended victims. Surprise is to their advantage, and they will often enough work to set up a situation where their intended victim can be surprised.

It CAN happen. Fortunately for all of us it doesn't happen often, for a number of reasons. But it can happen. And it's better to be prepared through relevant training to deal with it.

Because if you are carrying a gun, any fight you get involved in is automatically a gunfight- you brought the gun to the fight even though you didn't start it, and if an assailant discovers your gun on your person after contact is made, you'll be fighting for your life.

Get used to the idea... it isn't the odds that matter, it's the stakes.

lpl

 

[2ndAmFan]

I admit I don't have as much training in this kind of thing I would like to have, but I've been in two situations where I had to fight an armed assailant when I was unarmed. Once the guy had a knife, the other time it was a man with a gun. I'm still here so I guess my survival instinct kicked in.
In a situation like the OP described I don't think the type of gun you have, where you're carrying it or trying to draw the gun is as important as getting and keeping control of the assailant's knife arm/hand. You might get seriously wounded or killed trying to get your gun into action. Seems to me you have to control the assailant's knife above all, and you may not be able to draw your gun at all either. You would be better off controlling his knife arm and rolling him off you so you have some space to do whatever is possible to prevent your getting seriously wounded or killed, including running away. If you're lucky might have one hand free for at least for a few seconds while you're down and even if you can't draw your gun you might be able to give him a good punch to the larynx or solar plexus to get out from under him and give yourself some room. You can go after his eyes as well. Don't want to forget you can use your legs to kick or as levers to get him off you too.
Unless the guy has training/experience he is likely to be concentrating on getting the knife into action which gives you a slight chance because he isn't focusing on everything that's going on. If all he's thinking about is getting his knife free you may have the chance to do some things he isn't prepared for; things like I mentioned above or whatever you think might work, get out from under him and possibly disarm or get away from him long enough to draw your gun or run. Survival is number 1.