Closing AR-15 bolt _without_ using forward assist?

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MatthewVanitas

MatthewVanitas

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Was reading geekwitha.45's post stating that the forward assist is unnecessary because one can use the thumb or pinky to prod the bolt home through the ejection port. Is this easily doable?

Not trying to foist off the experimentation onto other members, it's just that I don't own an AR and can't try it myself.

I'm puzzling out the details on a retro-AR project, and pondering whether I can rationalize buying a slick/"slabside" M16 upper. My main concern was of having a bolt fail to chamber a round, either in a 3-gun match or in an emergency situation. But if one can manually press the bolt home through the EP just as easily, then I'm inclined to choose the simpler M16 lower.

Thoughts of the gallery?

-MV

From Fulton Armory's selection, believe DPMS-built:

M16Upper-350_50.jpg
 
The first rifles from the AR15/M16 weapons family did not have a forward assist. My thoughts are this, if you have a bolt that will not lock then what is the cause? Is it a round that will not fit into the chamber due to deformity or some type of debris? If it does not fit then do not force it, because if you do force it and get it to fire then you will most likely get a stuck casing. My recommendation in our doctrine is that if you have a casing that will not lock up into the chamber, then get it out of there!!!

CY6,
Greg Sullivan "Sully"
Chief Instructor
http://www.SLR15.com
http://www.TheDefensiveEdge.com
 
My use of a foreward assist

I've never used the fwd. ast. to stuff a round into the pipe. As Sully said, if it won't fit, clear it. The one convenience of the fwd.ast. is when you want to crack the action to check for brass. The ast. makes it easy to lock up the bolt without ejecting the round you verified and sending the bolt home again. My opinion and experience, both of which are limited at times.
 
BigG said:
The depression is actually to pop the little door open.
Click to expand...
The little door closes?:p

I've never used the forward assist. Not even for a brass check. I can drag the closed with my thumb.

If you're left handed, you may want to rethink a slickside.
 
;) The FA is about the most useless feature on the piece, imho. I like them with the plain SP1/M16 style upper. And yes, the door does close. :p
 
I had to use it several times at the range during a shooting session. Several rnds. would not seat all the way unless I gave the FA a little nudge. Got home and inspected my not yet broken in RRA, and forgot to lube everything after I cleaned it up. :what: Yep, shooting a dry AR. Still works fine though.
I only shot about 40 or 60 rds that way.
 
The little door closes?
Click to expand...
In a high dirt environment the door should be closed until the first round fires. I close it as a habit.

I'm rying to remember stuff I learned 25 years ago so please bear with me. The M-16 as you know was prone to problems when first fielded. It was shown to be vulnerable to very small quantities of dirt and had a nasty habit of siezing shell cases in the chamber. The A1 mod was the forward assist, to help with locking problems caused by dirt, and a chrome plated chamber to prevent the brass from sticking. I believed they also cooled off the charge a bit. The locking problem was mostly caused by dirt on the rails, slowing down the bolt carrier as it returned to the chamber. It wasn't much but since the weapon is designed to not fire until the bolt is completely locked, it was enough to cause a stoppage.

Although you CAN force the bolt carrier with your finger, you probably shouldn't rely on that. The forward assist is made to be hit, not pushed. I doubt if you could exert the same impact force with your finger. Another long shot danger is a slam fire or cook off while your finger is in the way. I can't imagine that turning out any way but bad.

I have probably fired over 25000 rounds out of various M16A1's in my military career. I have never needed the forward assist. I would think that the forward assist would not be necessary in the relatively clean environment of a range or home defense. What you have to ask yourself is "do you want to risk needing it and not having it.
 
You know, I have experience with a Colt sp1 and an Armalite. If the bolt doesn't go all the way forward (because I didn't release the bolt right) the forward assist doesn't help me at all. It is easier to just pull the bolt back again and release it a second time. The forward assist just gets the bolt stuck harder than it is. If I handle my Armalite right, I never need the forward assist anyway. The only time it has given me trouble is loading that first round (this is operator error). Once I start firing, it is never an issue.

The bolt on those two rifles was always very tight and I never attempted the pull it open to check for brass. Are your AR's bolts so loose that you can drag them back a 1/2" to check for brass then let them go forward again? I can do that all day with an M1 or an M14 action, but I have never done it with an AR. My experience with different AR's is limited so I am curious.
 
Loose bolts and no lube

Tossing in my two pennies regarding posts by ScottsGT and MechAg94. As for shooting an AR or M-16 dry, it can be done and was done often in the sandbox in 90-91. Better a little premature wear than a sand-sticking-to-your-lube induced malfuntion. At the range I still use minimal amounts of lube, nearly dry. As for bolts loose enough to return home from 1/2" out of battery, my rifle will lock once in a while, but I use the FA to lock it 90% of the time and make sure it's locked the other 10%.
 
I normally load it by locking back the bolt and letting it slam forward after inserting a mag. Works every time. FA - who needs it?
 
My experience mirrors Sully's. The very few times I have used the forward assist it either did not chamber the round or it chambered it and the round failed to extract after firing.

As geek noted, you can also thumb the bolt back into battery as well; but I wouldn't suggest it if you have been firing a lot since the bolt carrier will be on the toasty side.
 
1911 guy said:
Tossing in my two pennies regarding posts by ScottsGT and MechAg94. As for shooting an AR or M-16 dry, it can be done and was done often in the sandbox in 90-91. Better a little premature wear than a sand-sticking-to-your-lube induced malfuntion. At the range I still use minimal amounts of lube, nearly dry. As for bolts loose enough to return home from 1/2" out of battery, my rifle will lock once in a while, but I use the FA to lock it 90% of the time and make sure it's locked the other 10%.
Click to expand...

But with a NEW rifle?? Mine is still not broke in yet. I can see it once a few hundred rds are thru it, or a few thousand. But mine didn't have a hundred thru it yet.
 
The loaded mag puts a good deal of drag on the bolt carrier, hence the proper way to load is to lock bolt back, make sure mag is locked in (which is a separate difficulty that you may find) and then trip the bolt release. That's what the recoil spring is for.

The gun is not designed, imho, to be dicked around with pulling the bolt back a half inch every ten minutes to see if you loaded it or not. But then that's me. What do I know?
 
BigG said:
The loaded mag puts a good deal of drag on the bolt carrier, hence the proper way to load is to lock bolt back, make sure mag is locked in (which is a separate difficulty that you may find) and then trip the bolt release. That's what the recoil spring is for.

The gun is not designed, imho, to be dicked around with pulling the bolt back a half inch every ten minutes to see if you loaded it or not. But then that's me. What do I know?
Click to expand...

That has been my experience also BigG. My rifle works fine, I just don't mess around with the bolt.
 
This vaguely reminds me of the "cocked and locked" discussions we've had in the past: two completely opposite camps of reasonable people, which seems to indicate that it boils down to a comfort issue.

The thought of a slick M16 upper is a bit concerting to me, but then again, C&L 1911 seemed disconcerting to me until I got used to it.

Does anyone have an AR sitting next to the computer, and can tell us how easy/difficult it is to prod the bolt home by finger?

-MV
 
For the typical user forward assist is no big deal, so what if it doesn't lock on the range.

For use as an actual weapon, forward assist is extremely handy in an AR, particularly if you're in the mud or sand and have run a dozen mags hrough it. Remember, AR's are putting gases directly into the weapon, they get dirty after a while.
 
I have used the forward assist from time to time. In my experience with M16's and AR's; when you've needed to use the forward assist, there is no way you could use the same amount of force to close the bolt with your finger. Do you really need a forward assist on just a plinker or target gun? It's a matter of opinion. But there is a reason that they added the forward assist. After all it is a battle rifle.

There are some made now adays that dont have the forward assist. I had a Carbon 15 that was that way. You talking about a buffer spring. When you released that bolt, you sure knew it.
 
Forward assisst has very limited uses, IMHO

When my rifle is clean(under 500 rounds fired is still clean to me), I have no use for the forward assist in it's intended role of closing the action when,"fouled to the point the round won't chameber on it's own"(usually after SUSTAINED FIRE 700 rounds? I don't know cause I've never needed mine for this). The FA is NOT to be used to,"JAM" or "smash" a deformed round into a spec chamber, duh. That is why you check the rounds going into a magazine, the FA does not, and will not save you from a stuck casing upon extraction when you force a badly deformed/out of spec, round from your mag into the chamber....

I have used my forward assist to,"silently", well more quiet atleast,chamber a round in what was a possible SHTF situation. Closing the bolt manually to the point it won't shut, and then using the forward assist to finish closing the bolt over the rounds rim...Much better than slamming the bolt closed and giving away my position:evil: ...

Besides more quietly closing the bolt in certain situations, or a fire fight that would take more ammo than a single man could carry without cleaning, I see no need for the forward assist other than it makes a sweet rifle look sweeter, YMMV...That and rather have it and not need it and all that jazz...
 
Remember, AR's are putting gases directly into the weapon, they get dirty after a while.
Click to expand...
They dont get near dirty as 9mm ARs, which are blowback. After 1200 rounds without cleaning, I still had no problems out of mine.

Does anyone have an AR sitting next to the computer, and can tell us how easy/difficult it is to prod the bolt home by finger?
Click to expand...
I dont currently have a 5.56 AR, but when I did I never had any problems. But, I'm also left handed, and its a lot easier for me to push the bolt closed with my right thumb compared to my index or middle finger on my left hand when firing from the correct shoulder. I guess its because my right hand is in a more natural postion.
 
Does anyone have an AR sitting next to the computer, and can tell us how easy/difficult it is to prod the bolt home by finger?
Click to expand...

Conveniently enough, I do. Benefit of living by Gribble.

It's easier with the FA. Duh. :D

Like sully and others have said, if you've gotta use the FA, you're probably going to have a problem. Rack it again and get back in the fight.

Too Many Choices!? has a good point I'd never thought of though, you could forego slingshotting the bolt carrier, ease it down, and lock it with the FA, and you'd be much more ninja.

S/F

Farnham
 
Carried the things from 1975 till last year and NEVER used the forward assist.
was never issued one with a forward assist till well into the 80's.


natedog,
They are springloaded to default to the open position and retained by the plunger and spring on the inside of the cover.
Most common damage repaired on AR is replacement of the dust cover after the plunger housing goes south.

Sam
 
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