Clown Nose non-lethal projectile
- Thread starter RustyShackelford
- Start date
- Status
WestKentucky
Member
New idea...really dangerous and stupid one (aren't those always the fun ones) (hold my beer and watch me show ya how it's done jimmy)...that these be used for home - run derby. Clamp weapon on pitchers mound aimed and ready to go, fire, strike one.
pittspilot
Member
Rcmodel,
I have been told by a bunch of officers that a taser would have made no difference in Fergusen because SOP dictates that a taser is only used when there are two or more officers on the scene. One to tase, the other to back up the taser. The reasoning behind this is that there is not an insignificant percentage of the population that is either immune to the taser, or it does not have the desired effect, and you do not want to be the solo officer who just discovered that the guy you tased is unaffected by it, other than being very annoyed about it. Meanwhile you are not holding your gun. Whoops.
armoredman
Member
I've seen a guy shake off Taser. I've seen a guy lick pepper spray off his face. LTL weapon systems, (never EVER non lethal!), are very useful, but never 100%. one favorite I find practically useless is the pepper-ball launcher, BTW. The thing to think of is, think like the Dept lawyers. What happens if this hard ball hits a subject in the throat? The eye? Directly in the open mouth, (Stop giggling, yes I know a few people that would be worth it do that, no, bad idea, no!), lodging in the airway? It's possible...highly unlikely, but then again, I never thought anyone could soak a guy with enough petroleum based OC and set him on fire with a Taser. Right after that happened, (Florida, IIRC), they took away our good stuff and gave us seasoning in a can.
Bottom line, I don't like it. Then again, I'm not required to use one, either.
Bottom line, I don't like it. Then again, I'm not required to use one, either.
RustyShackelford
member
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2006
- Messages
- 4,018
Mix-ups & mistakes....
Mix-ups, mistakes & catastrophic failures can(and do) happen.
I read about a Daytona Beach FL/Space Coast area sworn LE officer who drew & fired her duty sidearm rather than her Taser,
. The subject was seriously wounded(civil action filed). A corrections guard in El Paso Texas & a BART cop in the Oakland CA area both did the same thing.
I read a recent update of a Chicago IL suburb PD officer who was cleared by a criminal court judge(not guilty). The police officer was facing charges for shooting a LE issue bean bag round shotgun 5 times to stop a aggressive 95 year old WWII veteran in a dispute. Another cop tried to use a Taser EDW but the prongs didn't stick. The senior had a knife and was then shot with the bags.
He reportedly refused medical treatment & later died from his "non lethal" wounds.
RS
Mix-ups, mistakes & catastrophic failures can(and do) happen.
I read about a Daytona Beach FL/Space Coast area sworn LE officer who drew & fired her duty sidearm rather than her Taser,
. The subject was seriously wounded(civil action filed). A corrections guard in El Paso Texas & a BART cop in the Oakland CA area both did the same thing. I read a recent update of a Chicago IL suburb PD officer who was cleared by a criminal court judge(not guilty). The police officer was facing charges for shooting a LE issue bean bag round shotgun 5 times to stop a aggressive 95 year old WWII veteran in a dispute. Another cop tried to use a Taser EDW but the prongs didn't stick. The senior had a knife and was then shot with the bags.
He reportedly refused medical treatment & later died from his "non lethal" wounds.
RS
leadcounsel
member
Deleted.
Dumb invention.
Dumb invention.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
"Clown" is an apt descriptor...especially if it's used to describe the person who would actually advocate integrating this into police use as descrbed:
"Browsing a California company’s Web site, Eickhoff found pictures and videos of an odd-looking, blaze-orange device docked on a normal handgun barrel. When a bullet fired, it melded with an attached projectile the size of a ping-pong ball that flew with enough force to knock a person down, maybe break some ribs, but not kill him, the product’s makers said — even at close range."
"The difference is that the Alternative is meant for exactly that time when officers decide, often in a split second, that they must shoot someone to protect themselves or others."
Sooo...let me get this straight:
This is a gizmo that an officer would attach to the barrel/slide of his service arm which is effectively puts a big bullet in front of the muzzle of his gun into which the real bullet from his gun would lodge, thus making one big fat bullet which would then bounce off some portion of the bad guy's anatomy, thus putting him in debilitating pain. A one-shot "less than lethal" weapon?
HOW, pray tell, is this whizbang gizmo supposed to be put into play on their service weapon "when officers decide, often in a split second, that they must shoot someone to protect themselves or others"?
They must first disable their service weapon as their primary means of projecting deadly force?
This sounds like one of the dumbest ideas to come out since "gun free zones".
"Browsing a California company’s Web site, Eickhoff found pictures and videos of an odd-looking, blaze-orange device docked on a normal handgun barrel. When a bullet fired, it melded with an attached projectile the size of a ping-pong ball that flew with enough force to knock a person down, maybe break some ribs, but not kill him, the product’s makers said — even at close range."
"The difference is that the Alternative is meant for exactly that time when officers decide, often in a split second, that they must shoot someone to protect themselves or others."
Sooo...let me get this straight:
This is a gizmo that an officer would attach to the barrel/slide of his service arm which is effectively puts a big bullet in front of the muzzle of his gun into which the real bullet from his gun would lodge, thus making one big fat bullet which would then bounce off some portion of the bad guy's anatomy, thus putting him in debilitating pain. A one-shot "less than lethal" weapon?
HOW, pray tell, is this whizbang gizmo supposed to be put into play on their service weapon "when officers decide, often in a split second, that they must shoot someone to protect themselves or others"?
They must first disable their service weapon as their primary means of projecting deadly force?
This sounds like one of the dumbest ideas to come out since "gun free zones".
Elkins45
Member
I'm not a LEO but it seems to me that if you have the time to affix some sort of a gizmo to your muzzle then wouldn't you have time to use some other alternative as well? Like a taser, or OC, or baton, or your voice, or a bean bag gun, or...
I like the idea of the lethal and non-lethal platform being physically distinct devices. So there's no confusion under stress if your handgun is set to "stun" or to "kill".
I like the idea of the lethal and non-lethal platform being physically distinct devices. So there's no confusion under stress if your handgun is set to "stun" or to "kill".
I seem to recall he had a Taser but couldn't deploy it while they were struggling for his gun. Once his gun was deployed in the car and fired, do you really expect him to transition to his a Taser?
pockets
Member
I think they should take it a step further for crowd control; make it inflatable.
Yep....when firing the bozo-ball, propellant gasses inflate it to the size of a beach ball.
At the same time, the backup officer fires a net which attaches itself to light posts.....and we go from riot to volleyball fun.
I forgot the cruiser filled with graham crackers, marshmallows, Hershey bars, and leaflets with the words to Kumbaya.
Later on, SWAT trucks could bring djembes for the drum circle.
.
Yep....when firing the bozo-ball, propellant gasses inflate it to the size of a beach ball.
At the same time, the backup officer fires a net which attaches itself to light posts.....and we go from riot to volleyball fun.
I forgot the cruiser filled with graham crackers, marshmallows, Hershey bars, and leaflets with the words to Kumbaya.
Later on, SWAT trucks could bring djembes for the drum circle.
.
Oh here we go again another one of these "my kung fu is better than yours!" "well we will see about that!" type of threads.
It's just another option learn how to use it or don't now pass the peanuts I want to see this great smack down WWF pissing match.
It's just another option learn how to use it or don't now pass the peanuts I want to see this great smack down WWF pissing match.
Do not place your life solely in the hands of a taser. I have seen them fail, a lot. I have seen them work fine too. It is a good option, but have a backup plan as you may need it.
If someone is going for my gun that is a deadly force environment, I will respond in kind.
If someone is going for my gun that is a deadly force environment, I will respond in kind.
RustyShackelford
member
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2006
- Messages
- 4,018
Command voice, communication skills....
I for one, do not put much stock in the command voice tactic.
Sometimes it can work but in 90-95% of the public contacts/critical incidents, you'll be dealing with someone(or group of people) who are intoxicated, unstable(EDP), has a felony or violent background, or is already involved in criminal activity. I don't believe in the verbal judo BS.
Word games or semantics will just get subjects more agitated or upset.
About 2 weeks ago, a spun out junkie ran by my property & was causing a lot of problems in the area. She pulled a fire alarm in the building & the local PD came out to deal with her. I had a few brief encounters with the woman. She seemed to be on "bath salts" or meth. I doubt a EDW(Taser) would work on her due to her condition.
Rusty
I for one, do not put much stock in the command voice tactic.
Sometimes it can work but in 90-95% of the public contacts/critical incidents, you'll be dealing with someone(or group of people) who are intoxicated, unstable(EDP), has a felony or violent background, or is already involved in criminal activity. I don't believe in the verbal judo BS.
Word games or semantics will just get subjects more agitated or upset.
About 2 weeks ago, a spun out junkie ran by my property & was causing a lot of problems in the area. She pulled a fire alarm in the building & the local PD came out to deal with her. I had a few brief encounters with the woman. She seemed to be on "bath salts" or meth. I doubt a EDW(Taser) would work on her due to her condition.
Rusty
A WWII veteran was recently killed by four bean-bag rounds to the torso. These sorts of devices should be called less-lethal, not non-lethal, since there is still a very real risk of death through blunt force trauma.
Personally, I think this is a bad idea. If lethal force isn't justified, I'd rather the officer be using OC spray or a Taser...less chance of other officer seeing a firearm being fired and the entire thing turning into an Amadou-Diallo-style shooting.
I would also like to add while acknowleging I was not there and don't have first hand knowlege I have very serious reservations about popping 94 year old grandpa with a bean bag gun even if he has a knife. I am not surprised at all that he died from getting hit by the bean bag and unless this guy is like Jack La Lane with the stamina, balance, and reflexes of a 20 year old, my first impression is and always will be it probably was way over the top and uncalled for. ( I stand by this)
The most likely truthful scenerio is that police officer
((((( was a total idiot who over reacted and lost control letting his emotions effect his judgement))))))))))) I have to rethink this. He may have done the best he could given a lack of medical training)))))))))
priviliage self entitlement training that is given in place of life saving wisdom learned over time and practice and just plain practice using the tools of the job. (I find this to be true sticter laws and harsher punishments are no substitute for wisdom)
The most likely truthful scenerio is that police officer
((((( was a total idiot who over reacted and lost control letting his emotions effect his judgement))))))))))) I have to rethink this. He may have done the best he could given a lack of medical training)))))))))
priviliage self entitlement training that is given in place of life saving wisdom learned over time and practice and just plain practice using the tools of the job. (I find this to be true sticter laws and harsher punishments are no substitute for wisdom)
Last edited:
cluttonfred
Member
I have to agree with grter on this one, at least in principle. Two (or more) police officers couldn't subdue a 95 year old man without using weapons of any kind? Time to go back to training or start recruiting better officers.
Well, like you said, you were not there.
The order of life in a deadly force encounter has the individual with the deadly weapon squarely at the bottom of the list. Thinking that a 94 year old man with a knife is less dangerous that anyone else with a knife will get you or someone else seriously hurt or killed.
Thermactor
member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2008
- Messages
- 992
I remember making a thread here about the progressive loads and got a talking-to about the use of 'less lethal' due to it being a logical fallacy when it comes to firearms.
These clowns with the clown nose need to get that same talking to. What are they thinking?
Oh wait, they're shysters trying to make a quick buck.
These clowns with the clown nose need to get that same talking to. What are they thinking?
Oh wait, they're shysters trying to make a quick buck.
(((((((((((((((((((Sure he is going to limp after you with his walker then suddenly turn into the incredible hulk and stab, slash, and kill 5 cops armed with AKs (that really happened but the guy was not a 94 year old with bones made of crispy cookies.)
I don't know what these people think common sense is but it is not my perception of common sense.))))))))))))))))))
I may have to rethink this since most people are not medically trained. I still find what happened disturbing.
I don't know what these people think common sense is but it is not my perception of common sense.))))))))))))))))))
I may have to rethink this since most people are not medically trained. I still find what happened disturbing.
Last edited:
ClickClickD'oh
Member
I think we have a new contender for stupidest idea ever.
Mounting a LTL system on a lethal weapon? Requiring the officer to properly attach it under stress? Hoping the officer on fires a single shot? Any LEA with even moderately competent management or legal staff is going to run from this thing like a flock of gazelles.
Mounting a LTL system on a lethal weapon? Requiring the officer to properly attach it under stress? Hoping the officer on fires a single shot? Any LEA with even moderately competent management or legal staff is going to run from this thing like a flock of gazelles.
You are right about all of that click.
The way I see it is it is an option if the situation allows it's use.
I would not mind having another tool in the toolbox even if it is rarely used provided my toolbox does not get over filled with tools rarely used otherwise it's somthing that may come in handy sometimes.
It has it's advantages as well as it's drawbacks. I don't think anyone here is trying to say it is as effective as a full double stacked magazine of bullets. I like more choices.
The way I see it is it is an option if the situation allows it's use.
I would not mind having another tool in the toolbox even if it is rarely used provided my toolbox does not get over filled with tools rarely used otherwise it's somthing that may come in handy sometimes.
It has it's advantages as well as it's drawbacks. I don't think anyone here is trying to say it is as effective as a full double stacked magazine of bullets. I like more choices.
Robert I have overlooked some facts and I have to give credit for them trying to take this old man into custody without killing him.
I have some medical training and I often overlook the fact that the average person does not and I have to admit my views can be biased when I do overlook that.
If I did not have medical training I may have been the one wearing that cops shoes if I faced the same circumstances. It is most likely that police officer is already having a hard time with this.
I have some medical training and I often overlook the fact that the average person does not and I have to admit my views can be biased when I do overlook that.
If I did not have medical training I may have been the one wearing that cops shoes if I faced the same circumstances. It is most likely that police officer is already having a hard time with this.
RustyShackelford
member
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2006
- Messages
- 4,018
IL incident....
I'm not going to respond or remark on the noise
associated with the last few posted remarks.
I will clarify a few things that were posted.
First, the IL police officer charged with the use of force incident with the 95 year old WWII veteran was found: not guilty.
He also fired a reported five bean bags at the senior not four.
It was also documented that the police officers on scene used a Taser(EDW) but the weapon had no effect.
The 95 year old veteran was also sent to a ER and refused medical treatment(surgery) which may have led to his death.
Forum members can pontificate or obviate at length about what they would have done.
As someone who's had a few critical incidents & situations where use of force might be needed I can tell you honestly you can not always predict or expect a subject to act a certain way.
You might think you can play Dr Phil or be a super expert with EDPs/aggressive subjects but you can't always talk your way out of situations.
I'm not going to respond or remark on the noise
associated with the last few posted remarks.I will clarify a few things that were posted.
First, the IL police officer charged with the use of force incident with the 95 year old WWII veteran was found: not guilty.
He also fired a reported five bean bags at the senior not four.
It was also documented that the police officers on scene used a Taser(EDW) but the weapon had no effect.
The 95 year old veteran was also sent to a ER and refused medical treatment(surgery) which may have led to his death.
Forum members can pontificate or obviate at length about what they would have done.
As someone who's had a few critical incidents & situations where use of force might be needed I can tell you honestly you can not always predict or expect a subject to act a certain way.
You might think you can play Dr Phil or be a super expert with EDPs/aggressive subjects but you can't always talk your way out of situations.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
