Clyde Barrow's Fitz Special.

[Old Fuff]

Supposedly this Fitzgerald Special style revolver belonged to Clyde Barrow of “Bonnie & Clyde” fame. It was originally pictured in a Guns & Ammo publication entitled, Guns and the Gunfighters, with the following caption:

“This .38 caliber Police Positive Colt, SN 505844 was taken off of Clyde Barrow when he was apprehended by Sheriff Peavyhouse in May of 1930. The front of the trigger guard has been cut away for rapid fire, and the hammer spur has been ground down to allow the gun to be drawn from the pocket quickly.”

Maybe, maybe not. It wasn’t a .38 Colt Police Positive. Production of that model ended around 1943, with the terminal serial number being somewhere around 406,700, and in May 1930 probably the highest number was around 329,000 or maybe a little higher.

A more careful examination of the picture – especially the butt/handle – convinced me that the revolver was not a Police Positive, but either an Army Special or Official Police. And quick check of the serial number records showed that Army Special’s were in the 502,000 to 514,000 ballpark during 1924. If my observations concerning the model are correct then it is possible that Clyde did have the gun in 1930. Otherwise no. It is also clear that someone other then the factory made it into a Fitz Special.

But in any case it’s a interesting gun with a possibly interesting history.

 

[Will5A1]

Its a very interesting gun, and thanks for showing it - revolvers from that period, especially Fitz'd ones, are always interesting.

I had it in my head that Clyde's guns usually had the serial number filed or ground off, or maybe that was Dillinger? In any case please feel free to post more interesting stuff from that era - I keep hoping to stumble across one of the famous G mens' guns, or maybe even J. Edgar's RM, I know its a pipe dream, but just maybe I'll get lucky someday.

 

[Old Dog]

What is the grip material? And I don't believe I've ever seen before any sort of finger grooves in handgun stocks from that particular era ...

 

[XavierBreath]

More Barrow Guns

More Barrow gang guns can be found here and here and here.

It seems he was a New York Reload specialist. Interesting stuff indeed!

 

[Master Blaster]

I counted 30 1911 pistols in that one picture.
Apparently he found it to be a reliable design, was he in the army in WWI?

I wonder how many magazines he had for those??

Fuff thanks for sharing the pictures, Those grips remind me of a pair that belonged to John Wayne. His were colt SAA grips which were used for his movie fast draws. The Dukes Grips hand finger grooves just like that filed into the inside grip panel (left if right handed), to aid in drawing the gun quickly.

 

[XavierBreath]

Clyde Barrow robbed a National Guard Armory in Beaumont, Texas, another at Ranger, Texas, and yet another in Enid, Oklahoma. That is how he acquired his BAR, which he cut down to use from an automobile, and likely how he acquired so many 1911s.

 

[TT]

I don’t get cutting off the front of the trigger guard- I’m not particularly coordinated, but I’ve never caught my finger on the guard during a draw. Do other people have trouble with this?

 

[Old Fuff]

What is the grip material? And I don't believe I've ever seen before any sort of finger grooves in handgun stocks from that particular era ...

I couldn't tell for sure, as the original picture was in black & white. It appears to be bone of some knd, or perhaps ivory. I agree that the grooves seem unusual for the era, but I presume that the revolver was in Sheriff Peavyhouse's custody after May, 1930 - If there is any truth to the story at all.

I counted 30 1911 pistols in that one picture.

I believe that is because the Barrow gang would raid National Guard Armories, which is also where they got several Browning Automatic Rifles (BAR's).

 

[Rampant_Colt]

I don’t get cutting off the front of the trigger guard- I’m not particularly coordinated, but I’ve never caught my finger on the guard during a draw. Do other people have trouble with this?

That was a common thing to do on 1911's as well. It was considered tacticool for that era

Can you say LIABILITY

 

[XavierBreath]

I agree Fuff, looking at the shape of the frame directly above the trigger, the revolver pictured is an Colt Army Special or Official Police.

 

[Old Fuff]

I don’t get cutting off the front of the trigger guard

The basic design was intended for pocket revolvers, where it might be more difficult to get one's finger on the trigger, and to reduce bulk. Some however (such as Charles Askins) used the feature on full-sized holster guns.

Askins was a Border Patrolman stationed in El Paso during the 1930's and early 40's. During that time he got into a fair number of gunfights and shooting scrapes, and racked up a body count far exceeded the ones associated with earlier, and more famous outlaws and lawmen.

On one occasion when I was much younger, but far more knowledgeable then I am now, I ask him when he was in a fairly good mood - "Isn't it dangerous to cut off the front of trigger guard?" Askins, who knew far better then I that survival in a fight could hang on the fraction of a second, looked at me and replied, "There are a lot of things that are d--n more dangerous in a fight then a cut-back trigger guard... " Then he offered some more comments that I won't go into...

 

[TT]

Maybe my fingers just aren’t big enough to appreciate the advantage!

 

[CSA 357]

Well It Didnt Help Clyde None,i Think He Should Have Never Cut Up That Nice Gun That Way!

 

[Piedmont Plinker]

Well It Didnt Help Clyde None

It could have. Lawmen were able to kill Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker by ambush. Led by Frank Hamer, a manhunter from Texas, they set up an ambush outside a road in Louisiana. I believe they used someone who knew Clyde to talk to and distract him. The distraction ran off, and one of the oficer shot both Bonnie and Clyde. Clyde's foot was let off the clutch, and the car rolled forward, where it was then perforated.

 

[Leanwolf]

CZ .22 - "The distraction ran off, and one of the oficer shot both Bonnie and Clyde."

The "officer" who shot both Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow, was Texas Ranger Frank Hamer, using a Remington Model 8 semi-auto in .35 Remington.

If you want to read an accurate account of what happened, you should pick up a copy of "I'M FRANK HAMER, The Life Of A Texas Peace Officer," by John H. Jenkins & H. Gordon Frost, Pemberton Press Publishers, Austin, Texas, (c)1968.

The death of Parker and Barrow did not in any way, resemble the nonsense movie made by Warren Beatty.

L.W.

 

[XavierBreath]

Deputy Prentiss Oakley used a Remington Model 8A to fire the shot generally credited with killing Clyde Barrow. It was a head shot from approximately 25 feet away. Oakley had borrowed the gun from a local dentist, Dr H. Shehee of Arcadia Louisiana.

Frank Hamer carried a Remington 8A with a 20 round magazine from the Peace Officers Equipment Company of St. Joseph's Missouri. He had gotten this weapon for one purpose only, to use in the hunt for Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker.

The possee included Frank Hamer, Prentiss Oakley, Ted Hinton, Bob Alcorn, B.M. "Maney" Gault, and Henderson Jordan.

Official inventory of firearms found in Bonnie and Clyde's car at their death, on May 23, 1934, near Gibsland Louisiana:
Three .30 cal. Browning automatic rifles
One 20 gauge "sawed-off" shotgun
One 10 gauge "sawed-off" shotgun
One .32 caliber Colt automatic pistol
One .380 caliber Colt automatic pistol
One .45 cal. Colt "double action" revolver
Seven .45 caliber automatic pistols
One-hundred rounds of machinegun clips
Three-thousand rounds of ammunition

The official inventory is by no means conclusive. Many things were taken, in fact, gawkers tried to cut off Clyde's ear and trigger finger! They actually cut down trees to retrieve bullets. The ambush site today has a marker erected that souvineer hunters still chip chunks off of.

 

[Leanwolf]

XAVIER BREATH - "Deputy Prentiss Oakley used a Remington Model 8A to fire the shot generally credited with killing Clyde Barrow."


Not according to Frank Hamer.

From the book I listed above, "I'M FRANK HAMER...,"

"Hamer was completely in the open. He stood in the road just a few feet from the killers. When they [Parker & Barrow] turned their guns on him, he realized he could never take them without a fight. He opened fire with his .35 caliber autoloading Remington rifle with a special twenty round magazine.

"Hamer's first shots hit both Bonnie and Clyde. 'Bonnie, one of the officers recalled, screamed like a panther.' When the car jerked forward, the other officers jumped up and fired, riddling the car and raising a thick cloud of dust."

So, according to the book, Hamer killed Parker and Barrow with his first two shots, Barrow's foot slipped off the clutch, the Ford jumped forward, and then the posse members opened fire.

FWIW.

L.W.

 

[XavierBreath]

Leanwolf.
#1, There is no need for caps or bold type. On the internet, that is constued at yelling. Additional volume does not add to the veracity of Frank Hamer's claim.

#2. There are as many eye witness accounts of the ambush in Gibsland LA. as there are witnesses. Frank Hamer gave his account which you cite, (Frost, H. Gordon and John H. Jenkins (1968), I'm Frank Hamer. Pemberton Press.). Ted Hinton gave a different account in the first published book on the killing of Bonnie & Clyde, written by him, entitled Ambush. Prentiss Oakley gave his account as well over the years. The other three members of Hamer's possee gave accounts that were remarkably close to that of Prentiss Oakley. They were remarkably different from Hamer's own self serving account.

Prentiss Oakley 1905-1958 Was a member of the posse that killed Bonnie and Clyde. Oakley, a Bienville Parish Deputy Sheriff, was the man whos first shot through a Remington Model 8 semi automatic rifle killed Clyde, subsequent shots killing Bonnie. Oakley went on to claim that he was bothered by the ambush for the rest of his life. Oakley borrowed the Model eight from his friend, an Arcadia Dentist named Dr Sheehee, he also borrowed the .30 calibre Winchester rifle used by Henderson Jordan. At 29 years old at the time of the ambush, he was the second youngest member of the posse. Sheriff Henderson Jordan requested Oakleys participation in the ambush due to his excellent skills as a marksman. Oakley was elected Sheriff following Henderson Jordan, who, at the time of the ambush, had served for the past eight years. Little else is known other than that Oakley retired from the Sheriffs dept shortly before his death.

More here.

 

[Old Fuff]

Ah so…

It would seem that our current writers of history make sure that yesterday’s heroes become today’s villains. Bonnie never so much as fired a gun, and we conveniently overlook that the gang killed 9 police officers before they got what they handed out. They were armed to the teeth (including a stolen BAR) but the lawmen in the posse were supposed to stop and read them their rights before continuing on. Oh, and they might have taken the precaution of holding an informant captive to prevent him from warning the pair of the impending ambush. Even worse Special Officer Hammer might have made a deal with said informant to get some necessary cooperation. This of course could never happen today…

Returning to the revolver that was the original subject of this thread, it appears that Clyde had it during a very early time in his criminal career, and in 1930 might not yet have taken to filing the serial number(s) off of his guns. But one can only speculate…

 

[Leanwolf]

XAVIER BREATH - "Leanwolf.
#1, There is no need for caps or bold type. On the internet, that is constued [sic] at [sic] yelling. Additional volume does not add to the veracity of Frank Hamer's claim."

Xavier Breath, I did not capitalize anything in that quote from the book about Frank Hamer, other than the beginning of a sentence and a personal pronoun. You might take a look again. I made bold and underlined the quote for the simple reason to distinguish it as a quote from a book. Sometimes, some readers don't seem to be aware that a quote is not the same as a poster's statement or opinion. Therefore, I emphasized it. (Just as I quoted and made bold, your statement to me.)

Having been on the Internet for quite a few years, I am well aware of "ALL CAPS" equals "shouting." Also, if all Caps and Bolding and Underlining bother you -- and others -- so much, you should petition the owner of this site to delete the window above containing the "B, I, & U" buttons. Install a code that would also only allow the "Caps" key to activate only at the beginning of a sentence, proper names, or when personal pronouns were being typed. That way, no one would ever "shout" at anyone. Peaceful and dignified discourse would flourish.

As for the "... veracity of Hamer's claim," or whomever shot the two vicious, lowdown cowards, Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker, I'll stick with Hamer's explaination. You and anyone else, have a right to believe whatever you want.

L.W.

 

[Old Fuff]

Leanwolf:

We have another way to bracket quotes. Notice that in the row where the B I U symbols are, and counting down from the "B" on the left, 14 symbols to the right there is a square symbol with lines in it. Simply use your cusor to highlight whatever you wnat to quote, and then click on that symbol. This is what will happen:

Xavier Breath, I did not capitalize anything in that quote from the book about Frank Hamer, other than the beginning of a sentence and a personal pronoun. You might take a look again. I made bold and underlined the quote for the simple reason to distinguish it as a quote from a book. Sometimes, some readers don't seem to be aware that a quote is not the same as a poster's statement or opinion. Therefore, I emphasized it. (Just as I quoted and made bold, your statement to me.)

Worls like a charm...

 

[StrawHat]

We have another way to bracket quotes. Notice that in the row where the B I U symbols are, and counting down from the "B" on the left, 14 symbols to the right there is a square symbol with lines in it. Simply use your cusor to highlight whatever you wnat to quote, and then click on that symbol. This is what will happen:

Cool, I learned something new today.

Thanks Old Fluff

 

[Leadbutt]

As a young man I spent several months being trained by Col.Askins and got to fire one of the Fitzed Colts he played with it was in 38-40 on the big New Service Frame..

I have seen grips like that on several old timers belly guns out in Kansas, but would have liked to see both sides, as the ones mostly seen out home only had the impressions on one panel

 

[Checkman]

I have no sympathy for those two - regardless of what really happened that day. The shooting was controversial back then as well, but they had proven that they were killers. But I do suspect the officers were not in the mood to give them either a chance to surrender or shoot back.

 

[Checkman]

I have no sympathy for those two - regardless of what really happened that day. The shooting was controversial back then as well, but they had proven that they were killers. But I do suspect the officers were not in the mood to give them either a chance to surrender or shoot back.