Clyde Barrow's Fitz Special.

[Cosmoline]

The death of Parker and Barrow did not in any way, resemble the nonsense movie made by Warren Beatty.

Neither did their lives. They were totally ruthless psychos. Sillywood's desire to make them into heart 'o gold outlaws was pretty vile considering how many people they burned down for the heck of it. That film "Natural Born Killers" was something of a criticism of this romanticism.

Bonnie never so much as fired a gun

That's not settled, but whether she murdered or just helped Clyde murder it amounts to the same thing under the law or morality.

But in any case, Clyde knew his iron in a way very few outlaws ever have. And it's just as well!

 

[bayouboy]

I did quite a bit of reading on Bonnie and Clyde years ago. While the Hamer account was entertaining, it had little to do with history. Probably the definitive book on the subject, which I still have, is "The Lives and Times of Bonnie & Clyde" by E.R. Milner. He was a history prof at Tarrant Collge in Ft. Worth (Clyde Barrow's home base). The book is a great read for anyone wanting to know more about the outlaws.

 

[XavierBreath]

"Hamer's first shots hit both Bonnie and Clyde. 'Bonnie, one of the officers recalled, screamed like a panther.' When the car jerked forward, the other officers jumped up and fired, riddling the car and raising a thick cloud of dust."

Actually Leanwolf, Hamer's book states that Hamer's first shots struck Bonnie and Clyde.

It does not say that the first shots to strike Bonnie and Clyde were Hamer's.

 

[Leanwolf]

Old Fluff, thank you for that information on the #14 Quote button. I'll use that from now on. I hadn't noticed it was there.

Bayou Boy, what was Prof. Milner's account of what he claimed happened that day when Parker and Barrow were killed???

Xavier Breath - Actually Leanwolf, Hamer's book states that Hamer's first shots struck Bonnie and Clyde.

It does not say that the first shots to strike Bonnie and Clyde were Hamer's.

If you examine the text, Hamer states he shot the two criminals as they raised guns toward him.

From the book...

"When the firing began, Hamer recalled, "Barrow's foot released the clutch and the car, in low gear, moved forward on the decline and turned into the ditch on the left. I looked at my watch and it was 9:20" Annotation, Walter P. Webb, The Texas Rangers

It is quite apparent, at least to me, that Hamer, in the middle of a gunfight, would not be looking at his watch, were he not sure he'd already killed the two criminals.

The sequence that is logical by what's written is, Hamer stepped onto the road by the car, Barrow and Parker started raising firearms, Hamer fired two shots from his Remington semi-auto rifle hitting each in the head, the Ford jumped forward and the posse members immediately began firing. It would have happened in a matter of a very few seconds between the time that Hamer fired and the posse members began firing.

That's what I get from the book.

Whatever happened, Frank Hamer and the posse members put an end to the murderous exploits of Parker and Barrow.

L.W.

 

[XavierBreath]

The sequence that is logical by what's written is, Hamer stepped onto the road by the car, Barrow and Parker started raising firearms, Hamer fired two shots from his Remington semi-auto rifle hitting each in the head, the Ford jumped forward and the posse members immediately began firing.

The ambush as it is re-enacted each year at the ambush site, and as is reported by Henry Methvin's father, Ivy, and four other witnesses who were members of the possee was that the shooting took place from an ambush position, from concealment, and nobody ever stepped out into the road until the car had continued on down the road and ended up in a ditch. Bob Alcorn reportedly did shout out "Halt" before anyone fired.

It is possible that Hamer stepped into the road by the car, and it it possible that he somehow miraculously survived the hail of gunfire from his possee into the car, reported to be between 163 and 167 total bullets in the course of 15-30 seconds, but most people who study the event discount this claim. Of course, that story does make him appear to be a more righteous lawman in the eyes of the press and public.

As I stated, Frank Hamer's ghost written account of the event is one of seven eye witness accounts. It is at odds with the other accounts, and it is rather implausible. Not one other person at the scene recalled Hamer stepping onto the road beside the car. In fact, at the scene, which I have visited, the ambush site is approximately three feet above the roadway. It is perfect for a man to fire from concealment while in the prone or kneeling position, into an automobile. This is what the rest of the possee describe. Hamer would have had to stand up, walk down an embankment to the car unnoticed, shoot the two criminals, and then survive the gunfire from his possee.

There are a lot of legends surrounding most desperados, not just Bonnie and Clyde. They are frequently fabricated and embellished by the men who take credit for killing them and ridding the world of the scorge of their presence. Ivy Methvin was the only witness present who had previously seen Clyde Barrow or Bonnie Parker in person, and who could positively identify them. I personally believe that Frank Hamer fired from concealment along with the rest of the possee, once Bonnie and Clyde had been positively identified by Ivy Methvin. You are free to believe whatever you want.

 

[Piedmont Plinker]

Henry Methvin's father, Ivy

He was the informant/distraction, right?

 

[Leanwolf]

XAVIER BREATH - "You are free to believe whatever you want."

Thank you.

I choose to believe that Hamer was not a liar.

L.W.

 

[Well-Armed Lamb]

Whatever you make of Frank Hamer, he did have the honor to dole out one of the stone coldest quotes I've ever run across: "I hate to bust a cap in a woman, especially when she's sitting down."

 

[XavierBreath]

He was the informant/distraction, right?

Correct. His son, Henry Methvin ran with Bonnie and Clyde. Henry Methvin killed two motorcycle patrolmen near Grapevine, Texas, on April 1, 1934 while with Bonnie and Clyde.

In 1935, anyone who assisted, hid, or traveled with Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow while they were fugitives from justice, were tried and sentenced, including their parents.

Some of the sentences were:
Emma Parker (Bonnie's mother) 30 days
Billie Parker (Bonnie's sister) 1 yr 1 day (Federal prison West Virginia)
Cumie Barrow (Clyde's mother) 30 days
Marie Barrow (Clyde's sister) 1 hour (in the custody of a U.S. Marshal)
Floyd Hamilton (Ray's brother) 2 years Leavenworth, transfered to Alcatraz in 1940
W.D. Jones (self described captive member) 2 years

Blanche Barrow served 6 years of a 10 year sentence after the shootout in Joplin Missouri in which Buck Barrow, her husband and Clyde's brother was killed.

Henry Methvin recieved a pardon from the State of Texas on August 14, 1934. The pardon was granted through the influence of Lee Simmons and Frank Hamer, for Ivy Methvin's role in the ambushing of Bonnie and Clyde. Henry Methvin later recieved a death sentence in Oklahoma for the murder of Constable Cal Campbell. An appeal in 1936 resulted in his sentence being reduced to life in prison. Methvin served 8 years before being granted parole.

Frank Hamer and Mannie Gault threatened and assaulted those who laid claim that Ivy Methvin or Henry Methvin were involved in the killing of Bonnie and Clyde, claiming it was misinformation spread by his enemies.

On December 21, 1946 Ivy Methvin was struck by a hit and run driver on Highway #71 near Elm Grove, Louisiana. He spent the next seven days in the Shreveport Charity Hospital and died on December 28, 1946. Henry Methvin died while crawling under a train on April 19, 1948 in Sulphur Louisiana.

If you examine the text, Hamer states he shot the two criminals as they raised guns toward him.

Leanwolf, I took the quote you provided.
"I'm Frank Hamer" by Gordon Frost and John Jenkins can be found here.

 

[Old Fuff]

Thank you, X-B. This thread is proving to be more interesting and informative then I expected.

 

[Leanwolf]

Xavier Breath - "Frank Hamer and Mannie Gault threatened and assaulted those who laid claim that Ivy Methvin or Henry Methvin were involved in the killing of Bonnie and Clyde, claiming it was misinformation spread by his enemies."

Xavier Breath, I read the newspaper article in the link, and I must say that was one of the poorest pieces of "news reporting" I've read, even though it was from long ago. Matches the shoddy examples of today's so-called "journalism" exhibited by the Zombie Media.

The "reporter" did not say who was exhibiting the slides, what were the slides depicting, or what the exhibtor was specifically claiming. Generally, it seemed that the exhibitor was claiming that Hamer had paid the Methvin boys for info, then allowed them in the posse where "they" took part in shooting Barrow and Parker. (???) Not much was clear in the article other than Hamer destroyed some slides, slapped the exhibitor (??), and threatened to kill him if he kept telling lies about Hamer.

As for whatever "lies" were being spread about the shooting, as Hamer claimed, by his "enemies," there is no doubt whatsoever that he had made, as a Texas Ranger, some very powerful enemies in Texas.

I've read a great deal about the rampant corruption in Texas at that time: Prohibition, oil boom towns, Chicago gangster controlled gambling, prostitution, smuggling along the border, etc., etc. Those were incredibly rough times, and very dangerous times for lawmen. It was most certainly not difficult for an honorable lawman to make enemies.

My father was a "wildcatter" at that time in East Texas, before I was born. He talked often about his days there in one of the roughest businesses that ever existed. He told of just how corrupt, dangerous, and venal were many politicians, businessmen, and certain "peace officers."

What is interesting to me, at least, is that several of the posse members made a lot of money going around claiming they had "killed Bonnie & Clyde." Hamer never made a penny from it as he refused to profit from the incident.

Anyway, as I said, I choose to believe Frank Hamer was not a liar.

BTW, I've seen the actual V8 Ford in which Bonnie & Clyde were killed. In fact, I've seen THREE (there's that "shouting again) of the V8 Fords in which Bonnie & Clyde were killed.

When I was a kid growing up in a tiny town in north central Arkansas, every year, a carnival would come to town. Sometimes, the carnival exhibitor would bring along on a flatbed truck, "The Genuine, Authentic, Real, 1934 V8 Ford Car That Bonnie & Clyde Were Killed In!" and for only 25 cents, one quarter of one dollar, you can see where they took their last breath before meeting their Maker and answering for their Malevolent, Malicious, and Monsterous crimes!"

Sure enough, a black '34 V8 Ford, shot all to Hell and back, with "dried blood" all over the car. Saw three of them!

(Of course, at that time, there were probably a couple dozen B&C V8 Fords, travelling the carnival circuits around the U.S. Those carnie boys made a ton of money from buying old '34 V8 Fords, taking them out to the back pasture, gunning the living bejesus out of then, throwing on a bucket of cow's blood and then... "The Genuine, Authentic ........ ")

And so it goes.

L.W.