CMP Information

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eb in oregon

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This information is valid for any 30.06 firearm ever in use by our military to include the 1941 Johnson. Take heed.

Dear CMP Family,

The CMP advises to not use .30/06 ammunition in M1 Garands, 1903s, and 1903A3s that is loaded beyond 50,000 CUP and has a bullet weight more than 172-174gr. These rifles are at least 70 years old and were not designed for max loads and super heavy bullets. Always wear hearing and eye protection when firing an M1 Garand, 1903 and/or 1903A3 rifle.

This warning is an update/addition to the Ammunition section in the Read This First manual enclosed with each rifle shipment (M1 Garand manual-page 6 and M1903 manual-page 10).

Civilian Marksmanship Program
 
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@eb in oregon good post and good information. Many believe that there is no issue running commercial spec ammunition in garands and I hope that I or anyone that I know ever buy a used one from those persons.

Personally, I would install a schuster plug to take any variables out of prolonging the life of these historical gems. These rifles were designed around shooting a specific load designated by the military and with an op-rod there is little forgiveness.
https://schustermfg.com/m1-garand-adjustable-gas-plug/
 
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A Must Read for the Civilian M1 Rifle Owner:

The M1 Garand Gas Cycle

To interpret the data provided, we will need to define the gas cycle. The gas cycle on the M1 Garand can be broken up into several distinct stages. Each stage affects how the pressure in the gas cylinder is changing. The Gas cylinder and operating rod assembly on the M1 are lossy. That is to say, gas is always flowing past the gas piston when the pressure in the gas cylinder is greater than the pressure outside of the gas cylinder. The following stages will deal with gas flowing into the gas cylinder. A graph of a typical gas cycle when using M2 ball (HXP) is shown in Figure 2.

Stage 0: The first stage consists of the bullet traveling up the barrel, compressing the air in front of it. The bullet moves up the barrel faster than the gas can escape from it. This causes the pressure to rises in the barrel. This stage ends when the bullet has moved up the barrel and is blocking the gas port. The compressive force of the bullet traveling up the barrel combined with gas blow-by will pressurize the gas cylinder to approximately 10psi. This initial pressure transient is what we use to start the data acquisition process.

Stage 1: This stage is defined as the bullet having moved forward of the gas port, but is still in the barrel. This stage is responsible for the highest rate of change of pressure over time (dp/dt). However, it is also the shortest of the stages, lasting approximately 46 microseconds.

Stage 2: The bulk of the gas transfer will occur during this stage. The bullet has left the barrel and the barrel is now rapidly depressurizing. However, the pressure in the barrel is still greater than that in the gas cylinder; therefore, gas continues to flow from the barrel into the gas cylinder.

Stage 3: Pressure equalization has occurred in this stage. It marks the point of peak pressure in the gas cylinder. From this point forward, gas will be flowing from the gas cylinder back into the barrel. Gas is also flowing past the piston and exiting the gas cylinder as previously mentioned.

Stage 4: The gas cylinder is depressurizing. This stage normally lasts approximately three milliseconds.

Stage 5: The M1 Gas cycle is now complete. The gas cylinder has depressurized. The operating rod has reached its peak momentum. At this point the operating rod has moved rearward approximately 3/8 of an inch. The operating rod will coast rearward using the kinetic energy it gained to perform functions such as: unlocking the bolt, extracting the empty cartridge case, cocking the hammer, and compressing the operating rod spring.
...and one of these:

... if you plan to shoot modern, high power hunting ammo out of it.




GR
 
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They said ammo that is OVER 50k CUP AND 172 gr is bad.

However...
50k CUP is SAAMI max so ALL commercial ammo is under this.


In essence CMP just stated all commercial ammo is fine. Only the 172gr limit applied if it was OVER SAAMI spec.
 
I wonder if CMP meant PSI, not CUP? I don't normally agree with Jeremy... but he's right this time, assuming you are not buying some crazy boutique 200grn hot rod ammos.
 
I wonder if CMP meant PSI, not CUP? I don't normally agree with Jeremy... but he's right this time, assuming you are not buying some crazy boutique 200grn hot rod ammos.
If they meant PSI they would be even MORE wrong.

This whole "warning" is going to do nothing but cause MORE confusion for the inexperienced garand owners. Because just about everyone who reads it THINKS it says.."don't shoot ammo heavier than 172-174gr etc. " and it doesn't say that at all... quite the opposite actually.
 
SAAMI does publish CUP and PSI using the Crusher and Transducer methods. American National Standard Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and Velocity of Centerfire Rifle Ammunition for the Use of Commercial Manufacturers. There is also the CIP pressure units which is popular with our friends across the pond. While the CIP method normally states a chamber pressure in bars even if we convert bars to PSI or PSI to bars The SAAMI and CIP methods are different so we will not get the same numbers. The reason being SAMMI and CIP use two different methods to collect the data. Likewise before newer transducers were developed we used the copper crusher method which is not anything like the newer transducer methods used by SAAMI and CIP.

Each method including the older CUP method are well defined. They are also quite different and thus the results will be different for the same cartridge and load.

M1 Garand Match ammunition as issued for matches was M72 with a bullet weight of 173 grains which averaged about 2640 FPS muzzle velocity (out of a M1 Garand). The general rule was not to shoot a bullet weight exceeding 180 grains in an as issued M1 Garand. It's also not just about pressure maximum but also about the pressure curve. The elapsed time between time zero and the peak pressure. The curve and the area under the curve need to be considered. All of this for as issued and not using a Schuster plug.

I also remember Denton's post regarding a conversion or correlation between CUP and Transducer methods. I never agreed simply because everything I read was counter to agreeing. Good threads though. Anyway whatever method is used it's important to well define the method. A brief read on the subject is Modern civilian test methodologies. A Google of chamber pressure test methods will likely bring up a dozen more papers on the subject. The frequently tossed out max chamber pressure is 50,000 PSI and that is keeping it light.

Ron

 
SAAMI does publish CUP and PSI using the Crusher and Transducer methods. American National Standard Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and Velocity of Centerfire Rifle Ammunition for the Use of Commercial Manufacturers. There is also the CIP pressure units which is popular with our friends across the pond. While the CIP method normally states a chamber pressure in bars even if we convert bars to PSI or PSI to bars The SAAMI and CIP methods are different so we will not get the same numbers. The reason being SAMMI and CIP use two different methods to collect the data. Likewise before newer transducers were developed we used the copper crusher method which is not anything like the newer transducer methods used by SAAMI and CIP.

Each method including the older CUP method are well defined. They are also quite different and thus the results will be different for the same cartridge and load.

M1 Garand Match ammunition as issued for matches was M72 with a bullet weight of 173 grains which averaged about 2640 FPS muzzle velocity (out of a M1 Garand). The general rule was not to shoot a bullet weight exceeding 180 grains in an as issued M1 Garand. It's also not just about pressure maximum but also about the pressure curve. The elapsed time between time zero and the peak pressure. The curve and the area under the curve need to be considered. All of this for as issued and not using a Schuster plug.

I also remember Denton's post regarding a conversion or correlation between CUP and Transducer methods. I never agreed simply because everything I read was counter to agreeing. Good threads though. Anyway whatever method is used it's important to well define the method. A brief read on the subject is Modern civilian test methodologies. A Google of chamber pressure test methods will likely bring up a dozen more papers on the subject. The frequently tossed out max chamber pressure is 50,000 PSI and that is keeping it light.

Ron


Not to mention - MAP (SAAMI Maximum Chamber Pressure) - is not the same thing as .30 M1 rifle Port Pressure.

Even staying w/in MAP, a load, with slow powder and heavy bullets, can exceed the gas system peak pressure design spec. considerably, and over-stress the system.

...while area under the curve, and Op-rod speeds, remain relatively unaffected.

Physics - who knew?

:D




GR
 
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More drive by cut and paste from the GG shill... how much kickback do you get or are you employed by GG?

And its still not needed...lol

Yeah, that's why Beretta, when they re-designed the M1 rifle (BM 59)...

Bm59.jpg

...went w/ the "Ported Gas Plug" design, as well.

20170819151642-1628.jpg

Enjoy your crayons.
(but stop eating them)

:D




GR
 
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Personal attacks are against the rules...it also shows you've lost the argument.

Where is the mass on the Op-rod?

And where does the Op-rod bend in relation to it?

And by what force?


Your gibberish... is just that.

Why don't you make a 2-part cult YouTube vid about Op-rod speed, contrary to both Julian S. Hatcher and the Laws of Physics.

(make sure to wear an EGA shirt, to impress the tactical rubes)


No, wait...

Never mind.

Ha!




GR
 
Gentlemen this is the type of behavior that gets threads shut down. And it’s also the reason we can’t have nice things.

The CMP warning has been posted in another thread. This one is toast.
 
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