Coach gun -- questions

[DouglasW]

Hello:

I've spent a bit of time searching the archives about Coach Guns, and have a couple questions for coach-gun owners related to my specific situation:

Does this coach gun exist :
1. each piece (barrel & stock/action), broken down, is shorter than 20".
2. disassembly/re-assembly is relatively quick/simple/tool-less

Any specific makes/ models that satisfy those two requirements? Savage 311? I like old/used especially, since this shottie will lead a rough and dirty life.

My pump shotgun is great, but the action/stock/tube magazine is much longer than 20".

Scenario: I'm searching for a long-gun that I can use for defense against 2 & 4 legged threats when camping far from civilization. The kicker is that it must fit (broken down) into a 20" box. Each afternoon, I'd re-assemble and load it for the night, then break it down and pack it the following morning before heading out. I am not concerned about daytime/mobile defense. That's covered already with a handgun.

Also, if I'm going to load/unload regularly, should the whole exposed vs. internal hammer (spring fatigue) concern me?

Thanks for your help,
--Douglas

 

[Fred Fuller]

I am unfamiliar with the current run of imported coach guns, I'd be looking for a good used 311 myself.

Years ago I had a $100 used Sears- marked 20 gauge 311 cut down for my mom as a house gun. The barrels are 18.5" long, measured to the tang they are 19.25". If you were replicating this gun, you'd likely want a 12 gauge, and you'd want to cut the barrels a bit shorter but still keep them over 18" to be sure there are no legal questions. I left this one cylinder/cylinder, were I doing what you mention, I'd likely have choke tubes installed in at least the left barrel if not both. Some sort of rust resistant finish would be good on the metal parts- this one was treated with Guncoat over the original blued fisish and that has held up well under indoor use, I would use something more substantial for your project.

The hardwood stock on this gun was cut to a 12" length of pull from the front trigger with the original buttplate reinstalled, and the stock and receiver assembly are 17" long overall. I'd leave a bit more length on the stock and install a good recoil pad were I you, careful measuring should still let you keep it below 20" overall while lending a bit more comfort to the stock, unless you need that short a LOP to be comfortable. A stock that is a bit too short is a lot easier to manage than one that is too long, and the clothing you will be wearing while using the gun should be considered also.

Assembled this one is 32.75" long overall, taken down and rolled in a towel it will pack handily into my wife's favorite duffle bag. It has an old Ithaca RayBar sight installed on it, and sling swivel studs. There's a butt cuff on the stock, were I going to use it seriously, I'd get a leather one to replace the black elastic style that's on it now. And I'd use a tritium bead instead of the tired old plastic bar if I were replicating or rehabbing the gun for current use.

I'm measuring as I type this, we got my mom a 9mm carbine as the shotgun was getting to be too much for her to manage as she got older so the shotgun is back here now.

Good luck with the project, sounds doable to me...

lpl/nc

 

[GigaBuist]

I've successfully put my Baikal SxS 12 gauge w/ 20" barrels into an 18.5x18.5" box.

I had put the barrels and the stock in diagonally to do it though, which if my math is right means that they were about an inch or two shorter than 26".

Trim the barrels down to 18.5" (the barrel was longer than the stock, IIRC) and you might be able to squeeze it in.

If I remember I'll take some real measurements when I get home.

 

[DouglasW]

Mr. Lapin:

Thank you for the precise measurements, and all of the thoughtful suggestions. I'm definitely planning on 12ga, and was thinking cyl/cyl, but will consider choke tubes based on your recommendations. I'm average sized and have never messed with the LOP on my Mossberg pumps...and they both fit 'just fine' (or so I think). I'd probably keep the stock/receiver/recoil pad (if necessary) just shorter than the barrels. BTW, know anywhere I can pick up a $100 311 as a project gun?

GigaBuist:
I got the same 26+" measurement for that size box (I guess we both remember something from geometry class). Using that trusty pythagorean theorum, I have just over 21" to play with (20" x 7" box). I'd greatly appreciate if you would post those Baikal measurements when you get a chance. Which model Baikal is it, and would you recommend it for this purpose? One of the 'Bounty Hunter' models I'm guessing...

I'm glad to hear this is appears feasible -- I'm kind of hoping there might be an off-the-shelf coach gun that will fit the bill.

Anyone else care to chime in?

Thanks again,
--Douglas

 

[GigaBuist]

The Baikal (yup, a Bounty Hunter II) comes in at exactly 20" for the barrels OAL and the stock is 18 and 1/8".

Might work for you.

The finish is rather shoddy on it and fairly prone to rust, IMHO, compared to other stuff. That's the only downside in my opinion.

It's 12 gauge, it meets your requirements, and it'll go bang in my experience.

No tools required to take it down or put it back together. Heck, never heard of an O/U or SxS that took any tools beyond a single finger and a working hand.

 

[DouglasW]

Thanks for checking those dimensions Giga, I appreciate it. I've spent most of the evening reading up on the various coach gun offerings, and it looks like the Baikal IZH43KH/Bounty Hunter II hits closest to the mark (so far). Boy, there is a lot of info out there -- especially when you stumble upon the SASS sites/forums I hope to find a few different shotguns locally to fondle in the near future.

Anyone happen to have a TTN model 1878 they could measure for me

I'm also trying to decide which features are important to me (barrel/stock length <=20" and 12 gauge are my primary requirements):
1. internal vs. true external hammers
2. extractors vs. selective ejectors
3. screw in chokes vs. fixed/cyl chokes
etc., etc. This isn't for CAS, just woods-defense.

 

[joab]

I have an old Warner SxS that I cut down to 181/4 " when broken down both halves are almost the exact same size about 19'

Disassembly is as easy as popping the foregrip off and breaking the gun as if loading. Takes about 2 seconds, reassembly is as easy and fast

 

[DouglasW]

Wow, Joab, that is just what I'm looking for -- and yours is apparently quite vintage to boot:

"Davis-Warner was established in 1917 when Davis & Sons purchased Warner Arms and ended operation in 1930. Crescent Arms purchased the rights to the name and assembled a few guns, apparently with parts also purchased from D-W". (thank you again, Google )

Since you cut it down Joab, I'm guessing it's cylinder bore, with no sight? What have you found the effective range to be, in that configuration? I'm guessing I wouldn't need accuracy much past 50 feet...

Speaking of old shotguns, is there a "sxs check-out" anywhere, like the THR stickies for pump-guns and revolvers? I know these things are mechanically pretty simple, but would like a checklist for evaluating used/pawnshop examples. I remember seeing something about "pinging" the barrels...

Thanks everyone!

 

[Fred Fuller]

I got a new 311 12 ga. for Christmas in the late 1960s. It was my second shotgun, the first being a Savage single shot 20 gauge that later got stolen out of my dad's pickup. That 311 filled many a pot of doves'n'rice, later quail too, plus squirrels and rabbits as well. I wish I knew how much it got shot- it was a LOT. It broke the right hammer after ten or twelve years, I had my 'smith replace both sets of lockwork just in case, and retired it.

Most of the stuff that goes wrong with a boxlock double will be obvious with cursory inspection. They can break, and do break sometimes, and that may be troublesome if you are a long way away from anywhere. But the big advantage with a double trigger double barrel is that you have two of everything, if one side breaks down it will seldom shut down the other side too, and so you still have a partially functional gun until you can get it repaired.

I would stay with a newer (relatively speaking of course) American made double, like the 311. It was a workhorse, dead simple and well built. Good used examples still turn up on the racks fairly regularly hereabouts. Older and better guns may turn up too but prices on more famous names are apt to be too high unless they are beaters too far gone for real use.

As to checking barrels, take a length of stout string with you when shopping, and a pen or pencil. Ask to take the gun down so you can sound the barrels, it may be that the management will do this for you if they are helpful. If not, remove the barrels and suspend them from the string by whatever protruberence offers itself as an attachment point. Tap the barrels lightly with the pen or pencil. They should ring with a clear bell-like tone, any dull thuds or clanks are bad news and likely indicates separating ribs, bad solder joints or barrels coming apart from ribs somewhere.
hth,

lpl/nc

 

[joab]

As you said it is pretty vintage, we figured out around 1919.

It is currently not safe to shoot according to some and perfectly fine according to others.

I chose to err on the side of saving my thumbs and have not shot it. It was bought for about $50 as a wall hanger , but I have a friend who says he can fix it as good as new for a little more than that. I just haven't got around to it.

The main thing I have learned as far as check out is to make sure the lock up is solid.
My 1952 311 locks up tight with absolutely no play. It's ancestor the Warner does not. I can stick a dollar bill between the barrel and breech face(?) when it is closed.
If you grab it by the stock and shake it sounds like an old 1911

The breakdown lever should go all the way to the right and stay when you break the barrels and should return only to the center when they are locked

The Warner does this, the Stevens does not.
The Stevens has been shot many times with this defect with no problems, but I am told that it is cause for concern

Warner merged with Crescent in 1929 they sold out to Stevens in 1931, I like the history of it

 

[DouglasW]

Thanks for the follow-up, guys.

Looks like a 311 (especially the 311R, which came stock with 18 1/4" barrels and was apparently manufactured through the late 1980s) would be my top choice. I'll keep my eyes open for one in decent shape in the Denver, CO area . The Baikal Bounty Hunter II sounds like a good alternate -- among the newer sxs offerings.

Any idea (ballpark) how much it'd cost to have a smith properly shorten the barrels on a longer gun?

 

[joab]

To have a smith cut the barrels and silver solder the gap was going to be about $100 for mine

 

[Gabby Hayes]

In case you come across, or get tempted by, a Rossi Overland coach gun, I just measured mine. The barrels come in at 20¾" measured along the longest possible path that includes the extension tab that sticks out between the barrels at the breech end. The stock assembly comes in right at 19½".

 

[DouglasW]

Thanks for the info, Gabby. So the Rossi Overland is out for this project -- since I've decided I want the broken-down barrels to fit square, not diagonally, into the 20" long box...plus I think I want to go with internal hammers anyway.

 

[DouglasW]

Follow-up

Found a sweet 311E at a local shop today, and took it home. I thought it was 1960s/1970s vintage from its condition/feel/color, etc., but according to an old post by Okiecruffler, the serial number suggests its vintage 1949. Wow.

I was planning to have the barrells cut down to 18 1/4" (from 28", with modified and full chokes)...but she looks awfully pretty -- I might have to take her by the trap range first and see how she does

Thanks again for everyone's help/info/suggestions.

 

[joab]

I bought my 31 with same thing in mind but couldn't bring myself to do it.
According to OkieCruffler mine is a '52

 

[DouglasW]

So Joab, did you end up buying another 311 as a coach gun? Life is full of tough decisions

BTW, I posted a couple of questions about the 311 here

 

[Deer Hunter]

Hello:

I've spent a bit of time searching the archives about Coach Guns, and have a couple questions for coach-gun owners related to my specific situation:

Does this coach gun exist :
1. each piece (barrel & stock/action), broken down, is shorter than 20".
2. disassembly/re-assembly is relatively quick/simple/tool-less

Any specific makes/ models that satisfy those two requirements? Savage 311? I like old/used especially, since this shottie will lead a rough and dirty life.

My pump shotgun is great, but the action/stock/tube magazine is much longer than 20".

Scenario: I'm searching for a long-gun that I can use for defense against 2 & 4 legged threats when camping far from civilization. The kicker is that it must fit (broken down) into a 20" box. Each afternoon, I'd re-assemble and load it for the night, then break it down and pack it the following morning before heading out. I am not concerned about daytime/mobile defense. That's covered already with a handgun.

Also, if I'm going to load/unload regularly, should the whole exposed vs. internal hammer (spring fatigue) concern me?

Thanks for your help,
--Douglas

I'm very happy with my Stoeger Coach Gun. It can be broken down, like you want, and chambers 3" loads. Great little gun, never done me wrong.

Kicks like hell, though. Might want to stay away from those 3" 00 buck shot

Best thing about the gun, it only cost me 300 bucks. Right out of the box it was nice. A bit stiff, with a hard-ass trigger pull, but it's gotten better with the all the rounds I've put through it.

 

[joab]

So Joab, did you end up buying another 311 as a coach gun?

No I chopped off his grandaddy, the Warner, but I can't bring my self to shoot it yet

I've been looking for a poorly stored ugly as sin 311 that wont hurt my sensibilities to cut down, but they're so expensive now.
I bought mine about maybe three years ago for $120 at a gun shop
. I couldn't tough it for that now

 

[DouglasW]

For $120, I'd have bought two. One to cut down, one to keep... I'm trying to find out if I could buy a second barrel for the 311, which I'd cut down...keeping the original unmolested.

 

[dav]

You got me curious, so I just measured my TTN 1878 (external hammers).

Barrel is 20 1/4 and the stock is 20 1/2. The stock butt is an exagerated crescent shape. The bottom of the crescent is what extends the length... to the center of the crescent is much less than 20". But the barrel doesn't meet your criteria either.