Coburn Amendment: Sane Universal Background Checks

[Dean Weingarten]

We suspected from media rumors that there was going to be an, “In the event of gun control, break glass,” strategy from the stronger Republicans. Unfortunately, the Toomey-Manchin deal has given real legs to this issue once again, and given murmurs from the House, including my own Congressman (not surprised), I don’t feel particularly good about the House. Getting a “true conservative” like Toomey on board with the deal, unfortunately, makes a lot of critters think “Well, if Toomey is on board, it must be OK!”

And so Senator Tom Coburn floats an alternative that I think would be far preferable, if I’m going to be required to pick my poison:

Dr. Coburn’s amendment would require a NICS check or validation permit to be presented for non-FFL transfers, exempting family transfers, estate/will transfers, and all temporary transfers.

The requirement can be satisfied in one of four ways:

1) An FFL takes custody ofthe firearm in order to perform a background check on the transferee as mandated in Schumer original and Manchin-Toomey

2) Presentation oftemporary 30 day permit created by running a self-NICS check through a new consumer portal(details below)

3) Usage of a concealed carry permit or any other state issued permit that requires a NICS check to be conducted to obtain

4) Any other alternative that a state comes up with to satisfy the validation requirements for secondary and private market transfers. The amendment also includes a provision that places penalties on ATF agents that abuse records during audits, an IG report on the FBI’s 24 hour destruction rule compliance, a prohibition on records, a prohibition on centralizing records pertaining to gun ownership and a provision that allows states to assume primacy of enforcement of the background check law.



* FBI shall provide a consumer portal through its website, mobile application, or other applicable medium to allow a potential transferee to run a NICS check on his/herself
* A successful background check will provide potential transferee with a temporary 30 day permit that validates he/she is not prohibited from legally purchasing or possessing a firearm
* The temporary permit can be used by the transferee for any private transfers in compliance with state or federal law during the 30 day time window
* The permit will be made available to the transferee as an electronic printable document, via a mobile application or other appropriate means
* The 30 day permit will provide the name, date of expiration of permit, and a unique pin number that can be used to verify activation by transferor
* The consumer portal will be designed with privacy protections so that only a prospective transferee can run his/her own NICS check
* The documentation provided by consumer portal will utilize necessary fraud protections
* A valid 30 day permit provided by the consumer portal that is verified with a valid governmentissued photo identification would suit the law’s requirements
* Information provided by prospective transferee to conduct background check through the consumer portal must be destroyed within 24-hours as occurs for FFL conducted background checks

The new law will not go into effect until the consumer portal is up and running, and the law will be nullified if the consumer portal is permanently shut down or defunded.

Screw going through an FFL being an alternative though. The alternative should be that FFLs can issue a validation to a prospective buyer, to facilitate a private sale for someone who doesn’t want to use the portal. Also, this all has to be with the FBI. ATF can’t have anything to do with this portal. In fact, I’d be happier with an independent agency, separate from the DOJ, running NICS.

The concern here is that the requirement that records not be kept by the FBI from the check are worth about as much as Cypriot deposit insurance. There needs to be independent, and regular auditing. While in this scheme, the seller presumably would keep the buyer’s certificate, there can’t be any requirement to do so. The enforcement mechanism for this is that if you sell to someone prohibited, obviously you didn’t run the check, and also the fact that most gun owners, to the utter shock of anti-gun folks everywhere, really don’t want to sell guns to criminals. Also, do we still get some things in return for the Coburn proposal? That would be a necessary component.

Again folks, what our options are depends on how people are communicating with lawmakers. If everyone who was lining up at gun shows at the start of all this were calling lawmakers, we would not be here. We worked a gun show to get people to contact, and the number of people who wouldn’t, because they just didn’t think it mattered, was very discouraging. Don’t be those people. Also, just be emphatic that you expect them to vote against all gun control measures, and that yes, background checks are gun control, no matter what Senator Toomey says. You wouldn’t accept background checks for Internet access (to make sure you’re not, say, a child porn convict). Firearms rights should not be any different.

http://www.pagunblog.com/2013/04/14/coburn-amendment-breaking-the-glass/#comment-251205

 

[Dean Weingarten]

We should push to make this proposal known.

The 30 day, self check document is the deal we need to make public. Everyone can see that this satisfies the "universal background check" impulse, and satisfies the requirement not to create a database.

The anti-freedom fascists will never approve of this, because it does not advance their agenda. In fact, it reverses it, because the next logical step is to allow the self-check to be used for FFL approved transfers.

It is a poison pill for the fascists.

 

[k_dawg]

No mention that this would be mandated for all States/Counties/Cities.

So it doesn't buy ANY improvement over the Status Quo for lawful citizens.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

It looks to be an improvement over Toomey-Manchin.

 

[PRM]

Its all NUTTS.... Its none of the government's business what an individual does with their private property. There are already laws addressing prohibited persons.

NO NEW GUN CONTROL LEGISLATION SHOULD BE THE LINE.

If the leftist retards want a compromise - what are they offering to give up. Compromise means both sides give something. All I see is the left wanting to take from gun owners.

 

[Bubba613]

So what do we get in return? With Toomey we get the ability to buy handguns over state lines and a shortened time period for NICS. This proposal is unenforceable and probably unworkable, given the prevalance of ID theft.

 

[tarosean]

This proposal is unenforceable and probably unworkable, given the prevalance of ID theft.

How do you know you haven't already bought multiple guns via ID theft?

 

[Bubba613]

Because it would mean a dealer somewhere would have to look at a piece of goiv't issued ID with my photo on it. And no one would voluntarily want to look like this.

 

[Blackhawk30]

Classic bait and switch.Create a proposal that no one wants,then create one that looks good.I wonder if Tom Coburn will be voted out in the next election?

 

[Bubba613]

I think Coburn is not planning on running again.

 

[RiverPerson]

The only thing I could get behind is if people could access the NICS system individually (free of charge), without any FFL being involved, no requirement for either party to keep a record of the sale, and only if we get something big in return, like opening the Machine Gun registry.

That's "compromise."

 

[razorback2003]

River I agree with your idea of compromise. Allow those with pistol licenses or people to access a NICS system on their own, but no FFL paperwork/record of sale AND in return we have Hughes machine gun ban repealed. I'd like to buy a new H&K submachine gun or have a converted Ruger 10/22 machine gun.

 

[denton]

Coburn's idea has some merit.

It doesn't really change anything, except, as noted, it eventually does away with the present system and Form 4473. I think that's a feature, not a bug.

There are some things we can put up as "sensible compromises" such as:

1. Universal concealed carry reciprocity.

2. Felony conviction and minimum prison time for any state/federal/local government employee or contractor that keeps or facilitates the keeping of a database of firearms owners or firearms transfers.

3. Repeal of the Lautenburg Amendment. That thing is plain and simple unjust.

4. Funded and administered system for restoration of 2A rights.

 

[Cosmoline]

I dislike it less, though I'll wait to read the text in detail.

What I'd like to see, assuming we have to swallow the UBC pill, is a new system of licenses akin to a C&R only allowing us to buy whatever we want. But that's a road fraught with peril to put it mildly, because it can so easily lead to more gun control. That's why I think the bull really needs to be taken by the horns and a comprehensive package of federal gun law reforms put down to counter the Dems. SWEEPING reform, all the way back to the the NFA of 34. Some points I have in mind:

--Replacing the BATFE with a new pro-gun agency with simple licensing powers. Like a DMV.
--Creating a clean two-tier system. For those unlicensed, all transfers save intra-family would need to be routed through NICS one way or another. For those with a new shall-issue federal license, all restrictions would be removed. Including NFA restrictions. The feds would have no records of what guns you owned, but would have a basic awareness of you as a license owner. The license would also serve as a federal CCW, trumping all state and local laws with minimal exceptions.*
--Barred categories would be restricted to violent convicted felons.
--Fees collected from users would fund the system and pay for new ranges and training facilities.

I'm still kicking these around, but the point would be to clean off the barnacles and get something that will actually help Americans own and train with arms as the Second originally intended. Would such a thing ever pass? Probably not, but it would give our peeps something to vote FOR instead of just against.

*To see Bloomberg and Cuomo's reaction to CCW holders walking around with impunity in NYC might just be worth it.

 

[InkEd]

Why is everyone willing to compromise. Any gun laws beyond the 2A is more than enough already.

 

[Cosmoline]

80%-90% poll results in favor of UBC's. It's the weak underbelly we need to shore up. So we can either keep dodging and ducking hoping they don't land the killer blow, or we can find some suitable armor.

 

[Dean Weingarten]

Why is anyone willing to compromise, you ask?

Because real compromise rolls back some of the *cr@p* we have put up with for decades. It looks like the bill has lots of trojan horses in it that work *for* us, not against us. Immunity from lawsuit, for example. Penalties for states interfering with the lawful transport of firearms, for another. Interstate sales of handguns.

I do not think it will pass because it essentially shuts down the whole 50 year scheme of creeping registration. It takes liberals at their word that they do not *want* registration, and shoves it down their throats. They will kill it. Obama would likely veto it. It is a trap for him.

 

[akodo]

So what do we get in return? With Toomey we get the ability to buy handguns over state lines and a shortened time period for NICS. This proposal is unenforceable and probably unworkable, given the prevalance of ID theft.

How would ID theft be an issue? You present the document with your name and other identifying info on it, and a PIN.

The seller looks at a photo ID to make sure it is YOUR document not someone elses, and runs the PIN.

If you are a felon and you manage to have #1 all the personal information of a law abiding citizen and #2 have an ID that identifies you as them including a convincing picture, that can be used to circumvent the system that would be in place under Toomey-Manchin.


As far as unenforceable...how would the T-M version be enforceable? By sending agents to gunshows and observing that the proper steps are being taken, and by operating stings.

 

[akodo]

80%-90% poll results in favor of UBC's. It's the weak underbelly we need to shore up. So we can either keep dodging and ducking hoping they don't land the killer blow, or we can find some suitable armor.

I think this is correct. However I think we need to start asking some underlying questions, such as:

Do you, average 80% who backs UBCs, want
a) to hinder law abiding citizens in their purchase of firearms
b) prevent the violent criminal from getting a legal gun today...meaning he will simply buy one illegally tomorrow
c) catch the criminals who are trying to illegally own guns and get them off the street.

(follow-up question...who would you rather have in jail? Someone who had a few oz of pot, or someone already convicted of a violent felony who tried to get a gun?)

A background check I'd be in favor of would be one that is truly instant (2 hours max) AND would be built around catching and prosecuting those who are prohibited from acquiring firearms. Something where the police would be notified that a violent felon or person on parole is trying to buy a gun so they could be dispatched to the gunstore/gunshow and find the person still there.

I'd be willing to have a system set up to report any NO SALE result immediately to police but have a minimum 30 minute wait on the response at the point of sale so that waiting is normal. I'd not want a delay to be a signal for the felon to bolt.

Of course this only works if the police and prosecutors actually respond to the alerts issued by the check. So there needs to be a stick. Failure to have a sufficient percentage of those stopped actually prosecuted (make sure the cops actually respond and investigate) would result in the state taking a reduction on federal dollars.


Whatever the case may be, the background check needs to be about CATCHING THOSE WHO AREN'T SUPPOSED TO HAVE GUNS WHEN THEY TRY AND GET THEM. I think that is something the average person would latch on to.

Most people have no idea that our current system doesn't have anything dedicated to actually catching the people when the background check comes back as 'just got out of jail yesterday for murder charges!'

 

[TCB in TN]

What about free NICS (consumer portal or whatever) and we eliminate ALL existing 4473's (immediately destroy all in US storage (including the secret database they have of them) and the current dealer copies) and no tracking of any serial numbers at all at any level state, local, or federal, including the removal of the requirement for FFLs to keep serial number info for all sales?


We SHOULDN"T give an inch, but I might go for that kind of UBC. Would truly eliminate the existing data that could be used for a registry. Would should get something else out of it say National carry, open or concealed (it would be worth it, just to give Bloomberg a stroke).

 

[Outlaw Man]

The only universal background check I can support is always check your target's background and foreground.

 

[ngnrd]

... Something where the police would be notified that a violent felon or person on parole is trying to buy a gun so they could be dispatched to the gunstore/gunshow and find the person still there.
...
Of course this only works if the police and prosecutors actually respond to the alerts issued by the check. So there needs to be a stick. Failure to have a sufficient percentage of those stopped actually prosecuted (make sure the cops actually respond and investigate) would result in the state taking a reduction on federal dollars.

So, you're advocating using local/state police to enforce federal laws? Um... isn't that just a bit outside of their jurisdiction? And didn't the feds just give Arizona a giant boot in the derriere for trying to enforce federal immigration laws?

 

[BigBore44]

Amen InkEd!!
We keep willing to give a little more and a little more. Why? What good does it do to give? What are we getting in return for allowing the infringements of our 2A RIGHT!!??

Easy answer: NOT A DAMN THING!!

We keep giving, they keep taking. Do you really think it's ever gonna stop? Do you really think they will ever be satisfied? If you do, you're an idiot of immense proportion.

Please stop trying to "compromise" with the enemy. Every ounce of freedom we give up is an ounce more of power they have over us.

Oh, and Coburn is a disgrace to Oklahoma.

 

[camar]

Gun Owners of America (GOA) says no compromise and so do I.

 

[joeschmoe]

No-go.