Quantcast

COL Too Short For Starting Charge? (9mm)

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by otisrush, May 13, 2019.

  1. otisrush

    otisrush Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    704
    I bought some (just a sample - 60 bullets or so) 115gr RN Hi-Tek coated bullets from Chey-Cast Bullets.

    I'm loading for a Walther PPQ - which seems to be well-known (amongst PPQ owners) as having a short [freebore? leade? some other term?] - whatever the right term is. What I've loaded for this gun before has ended up being short. In one case my Zero Bullets 124gr FMJ RN are loaded to 1.090" and Zero has a 115gr JHP I load to 1.079".

    I just did some die setup / plunk testing on these 115gr RN coated bullets and they don't plunk until I get to 1.035".

    I was going to use HP-38. Hodgdon's website lists 4.3gr (min) to 4.8gr (max) for 115gr LRN - with a tested COL of 1.100".

    With that short of a COL that I need to get to (1.035") do folks think I should start out lower than Hodgdon's min of 4.3gr? Or do you think I'm good to go with starting at 4.3gr for load workup?

    Thx.

    OR
     
  2. eam3clm@att.net

    [email protected] Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2010
    Messages:
    836
    Some cast 9mm bullets have a short fat nose profile and are shorter. What you have to be concerned with is how much of the bullet is in the case relative to listed load data. Take you overall length and subtract the length of the bullet and case separate. This will give you the depth of the bullet in the case. It helps to have other bullets from different manufactures, that has load data available, to compare. A chronograph is also a useful tool to use, if available, to see where your at velocity wise.
     
    Tcruse, Toprudder and Walkalong like this.
  3. otisrush

    otisrush Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    704
    ^^^^ Interesting exercise:

    For my go-to Zero Bullets 115gr JHP load I have .200" of the bullet shank in the case.

    For these coated bullets I have .262" of bullet shank in the case. So a good amount smaller case volume with these coated bullets as compared to my JHP load.

    When I put all this data in QuickLoad - while QL doesn't show me over max at 4.3gr HP-38 - it's quite high. I'm leaning towards starting at 4.0gr HP-38.
     
  4. Random 8

    Random 8 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2018
    Messages:
    558
    Location:
    Central MN
    HP 38 can be safely reduced (within reasonable load density). I would start lower and gradually move up until you are happy with the function and velocity.
     
    ATLDave likes this.
  5. Dudedog
    • Contributing Member

    Dudedog Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2013
    Messages:
    4,776
    Location:
    Southern CA
    Of course it depends on case volume taken up by the bullet not really OAL, but if it was me I would back off maybe all the way to 3.8, 1.035 is pretty short, my gut (not testing or any data) tells me
    4.0 is probably about right. (of course I am sort of chicken )
    Pressures will be higher with coated as well since they seal better than the Zero jacketed.

    I would imagine QL is much better than my gut
    gut (a very unreliable and untrustworthy source) would guess about maybe 1030 ish with 3.8 1080 ish with 4 at that OAl but I have never went that short.
    Just curious about what vels QL gave you. (gut check:))
     
  6. otisrush

    otisrush Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    704
    QL Reports:
    3.8gr 1,062 ft/sec
    3.9gr 1,082 ft/sec
    4.0gr 1,102 ft/sec
    4.1 gr 1,124 ft/sec

    @Dudedog - your gut seems quite accurate!
     
    bds, Walkalong and ATLDave like this.
  7. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    1,508
    Does the PPQ have a hardened barrel? If not there's a guy, dougguy, at castboolits that can throat it for you.
     
  8. otisrush

    otisrush Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    704
    Not sure about the type of steel the barrel is made out of. I'm reluctant to have that sort of work done on it. So far I've been able to produce the kind of loads I want for it. Although I've got a good supply of jacketed bullets, coated bullets intrigue me (cost) so if I can make them work that would be fun / another option.
     
  9. egd

    egd Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2015
    Messages:
    628
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Humm, it's been a good while since I shot my ppq, but I don't remember it being that short a leade (if that is the right term?). I'm pretty sure I loaded to 1.130 with 124 rmr rn. bullets.
     
  10. edwardware

    edwardware Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,540
    At 0.065 below COAL, I would start with 10 rounds of starting=4.3gr and see.

    Regarding reaming the throat: what Walther calls 'Tennifer' is actually Ferritic Nitrocarburizing. You could probably ruin a tool steel reamer without so much as scratching the barrel.
     
    Demi-human likes this.
  11. rfwobbly

    rfwobbly Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2008
    Messages:
    4,360
    Location:
    Cornelia, GA
    Well, it's like I tell my CZ owners... part of "reloading" is learning that you can't just shoot "any old bullet". Or put another way, 'not every bullet offered for sale can be used in your gun'. Any blunt ogive bullet is out, especially FPRN. Focus on traditional, slender ogive RN, like those made by Berry Mfg.

    Balance that against the good news: You're about to learn a whole lot more good stuff about the science of reloading.

    Hope this helps.
     
    drband and Demi-human like this.
  12. otisrush

    otisrush Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    704
    I definitely learned a lot about this with the PPQ - the scary way......

    I know this is very much badness on my part: I started loading almost 5 years ago. The PPQ was new to me as well. 9mm was the 2nd caliber I loaded for - but it was my first pistol caliber. I had the PPQ and a Hi Power in 9mm. I set up my dies, made dummy rounds, and checked function in the *Hi Power*. They all chambered fine. Cycled fine when racking the slide by hand. I figured I was good to go. I (very very) incorrectly thought that if rounds would fit in one 9mm I didn't need to do anything else.

    I load up about 20 rounds - my first 9mm rounds ever. I go to the range. Put ~5 rounds through the Hi Power - perfect. Grinnin' ear-to-ear. Load a few in the PPQ. First shot is ok (I don't know why, in hindsight.) Next one not only doesn't go into battery (trigger pull does not result in firing pin fall) the slide is JAMMED. And I mean REALLY jammed. I cannot get that thing open. I try for like 20 mins and it will not budge. I'm freaking out - because there is a live round in the chamber. I can't fire it. And I can't open it to eject it. I finally get it open (I believe - but haven't tried specifically after that event - that one can disengage the extractor for this situation. If so I may have done so accidentally.) So at least I'm leaving the range with a safe gun. But I am now processing 1/ what have I screwed up with regards to my loads (i.e. what don't I understand) and 2/ did I hurt the gun?

    I now know the Hi Power, when compared to the PPQ, has this gloriously generous leade. And that whativer I load for the PPQ I'm going to be dealing with COLs that are not "in the book". Which is what lead me to start this thread: It's one thing to know when your COL needs to be short. But at what point does one conclude one needs to have a starting charge below what is in the manual(s)? This thread has helped in that regard - immensely. I'm concluding it's a variety of manual searching, internet searching, and even playing around with QuickLoad to see if one can get a feel for how things might behave. I know, definitely, QL is not a replacement for published load manual. But in this situation it gave me "another set of data" to help decide what a reasonable starting point is.

    Thx all.
     
  13. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    21,194
    Location:
    northern california
    That won't always be true.

    You can easily load a different bullet to the longer OAL spec'd "in the book". It is just the profile of this bullet that isn't working in you PPQ...until you've tried other bullet profiles, you'll never know for sure
     
  14. otisrush

    otisrush Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    704
    Well - to put a bow on this - I thought I'd give the results of loads I just finished testing at the range. I brought my chrono.

    Reminder: 115gr Chey-Cast Coated Round Nose; 1.035" COL, Walther PPQ M2 5" Barrel, HP-38 Powder

    3.8gr 1,125 ft/sec (Avg)
    3.9gr 1,136 ft/sec
    4.0gr 1,146 ft/sec

    I had 10 rounds loaded to 4.1gr but I decided not to shoot them. It seemed like I was pushing that bullet pretty darn fast.

    I haven't decided what I'm going to do next. I might just completely abandon the idea of using this bullet. If I decide to try and keep moving forward with it I would tend to do some testing below the 3.8gr level. The velocity from the 3.8gr load is high enough I wonder if I shouldn't try to find something a bit lighter.

    OR
     
    Dudedog and Walkalong like this.
  15. Cemetery21

    Cemetery21 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2010
    Messages:
    392
    Location:
    MO
    PM me if you would like a sample of Acme coated 115 round nose. I have a bunch and they might have a different profile that would work. I load them with 4.2gr. 231 for a very light target load. I load them at 1.115" for a 1911.
     
    drband and Dudedog like this.
  16. Dudedog
    • Contributing Member

    Dudedog Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2013
    Messages:
    4,776
    Location:
    Southern CA
    Some people have reported good results with the RMR 115 Round nose.
    500/$49 -5% THR discount about $47 shipped to you door. Good quality jacketed bullet, price per bullet goes down as QTY goes up. 1000/$79 - 5% about $75/k to your door.
    RMR ships for free. The code for the discount is posted here or if your interested PM me.
    I don't normally shoot 115s. I think BDS may have some posts on them.
    I don't know if that profile might work better for you with the short lead.
    I like the 124gr MPR HPs but they have to be loaded short for short throats.


    :eek:gut was off by 100 fps on the 3.8, at least gut said to back off all the way to 3.8, should have said 3.6. That's what I get for listening to it after I feed it Italian food......

    Nothing wrong with what you have you just need to load short, and you wisely backed off for the shorter OAL.
     
  17. bds

    bds Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    18,490
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    If you decide to move forward, I would test 3.6 and 3.4 gr next.

    BTW, I have to load MBC Hi-Tek coated RN to 1.040" OAL for Lone Wolf barrel with almost no leade - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...g-oal-col-for-reference.848462/#post-11068321

    RMR 115 gr FMJ working OAL was 1.130" even for Lone Wolf barrel with almost no leade - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...g-oal-col-for-reference.848462/#post-11068321

    115 gr FMJ with 4.8 gr of W231/HP-38 is one of my reference 9mm loads - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...for-9mm-continues.845981/page-5#post-11034535


    BTW, here's a listing of working OAL for various 115 gr FMJ/RN bullets for Lone Wolf barrel with almost no leade:
    • Berry's 115 gr RN: 1.169"
    • Berry's 115 gr HBRN-TP: 1.169"
    • HSM 115 gr RN: 1.165"
    • PowerBond 115 gr RN: 1.160"
    • RMR 115 gr FMJ: 1.130"
    • Speer 115 gr TMJ: 1.169"
    • Winchester 115 gr FMJ: 1.130"
    • Zero 115 gr FMJ: 1.125"
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
  18. BC17A

    BC17A Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    100

    SNS has a 115 grain CRN that has the perfect profile for short leade barrels, and less $$ than what you paid from Chey. I use these in my R-51 as it's like your Walther, it has very little/no leade. I load these to 1.115" and they plunk about .020" shy of the leade. At 1.115" the bullet is .2" in the case so they can go shorter if need be. Also, loaded with 5 to 5.2 grains of BE-86 they are much more accurate than any load of HP-38 I tested.

    https://www.snscasting.com/new-red-9mm-115-grain-round-nose-coated-1000ct/
     
  19. otisrush

    otisrush Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    704
    Thanks for the offer!

    Thanks for the pointer!

    I've already placed an order for a sample from Bayou. From looking at the picture of their 115gr RN the profile looks such that they will be longer - enabling less bullet base to be in the case.

    I'm not totally sure why all-of-a-sudden I've gotten this bug to find a coated bullet that works. I've currently got a good stock of jacketed bullets. But having a cheap way of getting an even better inventory of stuff to plink with sounds appealing/wise.

    OR
     
    BC17A likes this.
  20. drband

    drband Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,853
    Location:
    GA
    Acme has their “new profile” 124gr coated bullets that work great in short leade barrels. I just checked, and they also have the “new profile” in 115gr coated, too.
    5F73F01D-D1A9-4072-91F0-CA65AE8BA39F.jpeg
    They work especially well in barrels with tight or short leade.
     
    otisrush likes this.
  21. BC17A

    BC17A Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    100

    I use Bayou 115s also, and I believe they're the same profile as the SNS. You'll like them.
     
  22. otisrush

    otisrush Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    704
    I thought I'd do yet another follow-up. The Bayou 115gr RNs just arrived and I did a fitting to my Walther PPQ barrel.

    I haven't loaded - let alone fired - any test rounds. But just from figuring out what fits in my gun I'm very very enthused.

    They plunk at a COL of 1.100. But more importantly, when I do the various math to figure out how much of the bullet is out of the case vs how much is in the case - the bullet base of these Bayous does not go in as deeply as it needed to for the Chey-Cast 115s. The Bayou's have .222" or so of the bullet in the case. The Chey-Cast had to have .262" of the bullet in the case. So I've got more case volume with the Bayous than I did with the Chey-Cast.

    PLUS: The Chey-Cast have a groove - which made getting lead shavings seemingly inevitable - even though I was belling what seemed like quite a bit. Out of the 5 dummy rounds I made with the Bayous I got no lead shaving at all. (No groove in the Bayous.)

    Bayou on the left - Chey-Cast on the right.

    One point I feel compelled to make: I'm not, in all of this, casting any stones at Chey-Cast or making any comment about their product. A couple of friends I have use Chey-Cast products and speak *very* highly of them. I was wanting to do business with them as a result. My reports here are more focused on documenting my experiences trying to get a lightweight coated bullet in a short/no leade chamber.


    20190523_141722.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  23. rsrocket1

    rsrocket1 Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,579
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    9mm is super sensitive to seat depth due to it's small case volume.

    Quickload uses a case volume of 13.3g H20. Many sites say that 9mm is closer to 14.2. When using Quickload, you'll see that in practice, a "full charge" sometimes leads to lower than expected chronographed velocities. I try both and if the 14.2g works for me and the 13.3g is still within +P pressures, I won't be afraid to use that load.

    Since 9mm cases are all over the map, it would be a good idea to shoot some same head-stamped cases through your gun and measure the H20 capacity of the fired cases. If they are closer to 14.4g H20 than 13.3g, you actually have more margin with those cases than you do with Quickload. Of course, there is brass with the stepped insides which have much less volume will probably be way up there in pressure but the case heads are much thicker so you're probably still safe. A lot of people trash those cases, but I use 'em just the same.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice