Colorado Marijuana Law and Federal Form 4473

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BSA1 said:
...The information quoted on Post 11 is exactly what I mean when I state there is no definition of what present and how far in the past means by the BATF....
And working those sorts of questions out is what courts do. If you're charged and want to object to the way the definition in the regulations was applied in your case, under your circumstances, there are procedures for you to do so.

BSA1 said:
...Is it legal for a company, testing facility or doctor to release U.A
Certainly it would be with a court order.

But if there's some point to your comments, it escapes me.
 
After reading this thread I had to reply to some of the comments I'm seeing regarding these recent law changes. X-Rap, I must question how Colorado has "lost their minds" regarding the medicinal use of cannabis which has countless uses ranging from treating multiple sclerosis and HIV to killing cancer cells through autophagy(all without damaging healthy cells and tissue). Yes it is illegal as others have said but state laws are changing and there is a great chance federal law will in regards to this as well. So to echo what folks here have said, yes it is illegal under federal law still so until that changes firearms ownership in conjunction with cannabis use will still be illegal for that reason.
 
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The current problem with legalized pot be it medical or recreational seems to be setting a limit like BAC is used with intoxication and alcohol.
The word I get is that LE is pretty much hog tied on making arrests stick when they suspect someone is under the influence of MM because there is no statutory level.
The new Colorado amendment purports to treat Pot like Alcohol, I don't know if that meaning has been decided but isn't it ironic that one can't smoke a tobacco in a bar or at the ball field but they may very well be able to light up a joint. Logic tells me that if kids are influenced to drink by such exposure they will certainly be with overt pot use.
In some ways I wonder if this is just another back door move at gun control, make every gun owner who smoke weed a felon or disarmed, both by their own choice. The youth are the ones who will fall for it the hardest.
Smoking in public will be against the law. As well as private sales. If it is enforced, we will see. Personally I could care less if someone sits at home and burnes one. But when they burn one and go to the range, or get in their car while my wife and 2 kids are driving the roads, is what rubs me the wrong way.

Backdoor gun control? Highly unlikely. Attractiveness of over 200 million in tax revenue. Very likely.
 
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But one's subjective perception just might not mean too much to a judge.

Yep...my point exactly. The BATF could write a simple phrase like;

"If you have used a illegal drug, or been arrested and convicted of possession, transportation, or distributing a illegal drug as defined by >>> regardless of the severity level, i.e. citation, infraction, misdemeanor or felony, in the past 12 months then you are not allowed to purchase a firearm."

Simple clear concise.

As you point out the current regulations are subject to the whims of the Government and Judges.

I got to admit though it is a job security for lawyers. :D
 
I bet the stores selling weed will have to see your photo id. What if they scan it and now your in the system and if it makes it to the fed level "or state level in some states" you would be denyed the purchase of firearms
Yep all kinds of worms will be opened on this
 
How can the cultivation and use of a plant by an individual be the business of a government anyway????

Oh yea, I forgot. They said it is their business so it is their business.
 
celery said:
How can the cultivation and use of a plant by an individual be the business of a government anyway????

Oh yea, I forgot. They said it is their business so it is their business.
You could try that pitch with a judge, but it sure won't get you anywhere. And the Supreme Court has confirmed on a number of occasions that the government can indeed make it its business.
 
And the Supreme Court has confirmed on a number of occasions that the government can indeed make it its business.

That doesn't make it right. That is just proof that the government's primary concern is retaining power and control over the population for itself.

I don't know about you, but I don't need some suit in Washington D.C. to tell me right from wrong - My parents taught me that quite well, thank you.
 
Rail Driver said:
...That is just proof that the government's primary concern is retaining power and control over the population for itself....
Nope, that's only your interpretation of it. On the other hand, the Founding Fathers in the Constitution delegated the judicial power of the United States to the federal courts, and gave the federal courts jurisdiction to, among other things, decide cases arising under he Constitution (Constitution of the United States, Article III, Sections 1 and 2):
Section 1. The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish....

Section 2. The Judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution,...

Rail Driver said:
...I don't know about you, but I don't need some suit in Washington D.C. to tell me right from wrong...
It's not about your view of what is right or wrong. It's about the what is Constitutional and what is or is not legal.
 
It's not about your view of what is right or wrong. It's about the what is Constitutional and what is or is not legal.

interesting when dealing with something that maybe constitutional yet illegal all at once. The government has made such a mess of the laws it is only gong to make things costly and time consuming to figure out. Making things illegal like growing a plant sounds pretty unconstitutional. Just my opinion, and only opinion that matters as frank has pointed out is the judges. They make the rules.

Law is power of language. Its been done through out history time and time again.
 
Nope, that's only your interpretation of it. On the other hand, the Founding Fathers in the Constitution delegated the judicial power of the United States to the federal courts, and gave the federal courts jurisdiction to, among other things, decide cases arising under he Constitution (Constitution of the United States, Article III, Sections 1 and 2):

It's not about your view of what is right or wrong. It's about the what is Constitutional and what is or is not legal.

You're right - it's not about my view of what's right or wrong.

I am trying to respond in a "High Road" fashion to this, so please bear with me, and if I step over the line feel free to moderate as necessary.

It seems to me that you are defending the right of the government to make up the rules as they go along whether those rules violate the intent that the Founding Fathers had or not (which, let's face it - none of us can know with 100% certainty, the intent of the founding fathers).

It is apparent to me that you have a strong bias against marijuana and its use - That's fine, and you're entitled to that opinion - but your bias has nothing to do with the constitutionality of laws regulating it - It's well known that Supreme Court Justices (the end of the line where law in this nation is concerned) are NOT objective, or else who appoints those justices wouldn't be as much of an issue where firearms rights are concerned.

The question here seems to be whether or not it's constitutional for the government to regulate ... well... everything, based on the commerce clause.

You seem to be defending the right of the government to regulate every aspect of our lives using that clause simply because it's in the constitution and if I'm mistaken please correct me.

The way I see it, you can't have it both ways - If the government can regulate everything else based on the commerce clause, then why can't they regulate firearms? If they cannot regulate everything on that basis, then why can they regulate marijuana? For that matter, what gives the government the right to regulate firearms or marijuana at all?

There's nothing in the constitution about marijuana - several of the Founding Fathers grew hemp on their own lands (granted they likely didn't smoke it). There is, however, an entire constitutional amendment relating to firearms, which we are all familiar with, which prohibits the government from making any law which infringes on the right of the people to keep and bear arms, yet here we are today with literally thousands of state and federal laws infringing on our firearms rights, and a product that was once one of our nation's largest cash crops rendered completely illegal.

But the government NEVER does ANYTHING that is unconstitutional, and the government is completely transparent in everything it does. :rolleyes:

The real kicker here is that in order for something to be declared unconstitutional, someone has to file suit with the government, convince the supreme court to hear the case, extremely large sums of money must change hands, and then those same judges that are appointed by the people that make the laws get to decide whether or not a law is constitutional or not.

Seems to me that things aren't quite as cut and dried as they should be, if the constitution is really the end of the line and the law of the land.
 
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Rail Driver said:
..It seems to me that you are defending the right of the government to make up the rules as they go along whether those rules violate the intent that the Founding Fathers had or not (which, let's face it - none of us can know with 100% certainty, the intent of the founding fathers)...
No, but in the real world the Founding Fathers delegated the authority under the Constitution to the federal courts to exercise the judicial power of the United States to resolve, among other things, disputes over the meaning and application of the Constitution.

Rail Driver said:
...It is apparent to me that you have a strong bias against marijuana and its use...
I have no idea how you reached that conclusion. I've said nothing about my personal views regarding marijuana or its use. I've been very clear, however, about what the current law is.

Rail Driver said:
...The question here seems to be whether or not it's constitutional for the government to regulate ... well... everything, based on the commerce clause....
And disputes on such questions are, under the Constitution, matters for the federal courts.

Rail Driver said:
..The way I see it, you can't have it both ways - If the government can regulate everything else based on the commerce clause, then why can't they regulate firearms? If they cannot regulate everything on that basis, then why can they regulate marijuana? For that matter, what gives the government the right to regulate firearms or marijuana at all?...
Again, more issues for the federal courts.

Rail Driver said:
...But the government NEVER does ANYTHING that is unconstitutional, and the government is completely transparent in everything it does...
But the courts do sometimes rule against the government.

Rail Driver said:
...The real kicker here is that in order for something to be declared unconstitutional, someone has to file suit with the government, convince the supreme court to hear the case, extremely large sums of money must change hands,...
Welcome to real life.

Rail Driver said:
...then those same judges that are appointed by the people that make the laws get to decide whether or not a law is constitutional or not...
Which is apparently the way the Founding Fathers wanted it, because that's the way they set things up in the Constitution.

Rail Driver said:
...Seems to me that things aren't quite as cut and dried as they should be, if the constitution is really the end of the line and the law of the land.
What makes you think things should be all the cut and dried? We live in a complex, pluralistic, political world with many people having differing beliefs, values, interests, needs, etc. That is not a recipe for "cut and dried."
 
I wholeheartedly agree that cannabis prohibition does not meet the definition of constitutional. Yes, it is illegal and we are discussing legal issues but if we are to discuss constitutional issues as well then it's safe to say the founding fathers would not approve of cannabis prohibition.
“Make the most of the Indian hemp seed, sow it everywhere.”
-George Washington
 
sherman123 said:
...but if we are to discuss constitutional issues as well then it's safe to say the founding fathers would not approve of cannabis prohibition....
Well they aren't here now, and the Supreme Court has found it to be constitutional (e. g., Gonzales v. Raich, 545 U.S. 1 (2005)). The opinion of the Supreme Court, to which the Founding Fathers delegated the judicial power of the United States, including jurisdiction of cases arising under the Constitution, trumps your opinion.
 
BSA1 said:
Thank you for your reply Frank. The information quoted on Post 11 is exactly what I mean when I state there is no definition of what present and how far in the past means by the BATF or more precisely what have the Federal Courts have ruled.

Example;of days or weeks before, but rather that the unlawful use has occurred recently enough to indicate that the individual is actively engaged in such conduct.

A person may be an unlawful current user of a controlled substance even though the substance is not being used at the precise time the person seeks to acquire a firearm or receives or possesses a firearm.

An inference of current use may be drawn from evidence of a recent use or possession of a controlled substance or a pattern of use or possession that reasonably covers the present time,

e.g., a conviction for use or possession of a controlled substance within the past year;

No definition of recent. It is a very vague, subjective term.,

An inference of current use may be drawn from evidence of a recent use or possession of a controlled substance or a pattern of use or possession that reasonably covers the present time,

Interence is the act of passing from one proposition, statement, or judgment considered as true to another whose truth is believed to follow from that of the former. It requires a subjective conclusion.

e.g., a conviction for use or possession of a controlled substance within the past year;

Ok present use covers within the past year,

multiple arrests for such offenses within the past 5 years if the most recent arrest occurred within the past year;

What is arrest? Does a citation as mention by a LEO count? But wait if it is one year then the five year rule applies???

or persons found through a drug test to use a controlled substance unlawfully, provided that the test was administered within the past year....

Back to the one year rule. Is it legal for a company, testing facility or doctor to release U.A. results without consent of the employee/patient unless the Government gets search warrant?

This entire definition is Government doublespeak, well actually, really worse. If the Government considers recent usage to be within the past year then why not write a simple one line sentence saying so? I was wondering if any Federal Court has issued a decision that defined such terms as recent and present?
The government is providing guidance on what is LIKELY to be considered proof of being an illegal user of a controlled substance. However, ultimately it is a fact to be determined by a jury. If charged you either stipulate to that fact and plead guilty, or go to trial and let a jury decide if the government has proven that element of the crime.
 
BSA1 said:
But one's subjective perception just might not mean too much to a judge.

Yep...my point exactly. The BATF could write a simple phrase like;

"If you have used a illegal drug, or been arrested and convicted of possession, transportation, or distributing a illegal drug as defined by >>> regardless of the severity level, i.e. citation, infraction, misdemeanor or felony, in the past 12 months then you are not allowed to purchase a firearm."

Simple clear concise.
They don't do that because contrary to what some spew around here the ATF, does not simply create law on it's own, and the determination of what constitutes proof of being an illegal user of a controlled substance is a fact determined by the jury, not ATF.
 
If marijuana use is legallized in your state, you are no longer an " unlawful user"....

Individual States have the Authority to be LESS restrictive than Federal Laws, but NOT MORE restrictive. However, they then also subject themselves (The State gov't.) to punitive Federal discipline, for lack of a better phrase, IE Highway funding withheld, etc..

However, here's the overwhelming misnomer that is being overlooked by the advocates: legalizing marijuana will not eliminate the criminal activities surrounding it, and comparing it to alcohol prohibition is a red-herring argument, as the surrounding scenarios are not even close to being parallels. Tens of thousands of people will continue to be murdered in the processes of getting marijuana traffic around the U.S.. Just like alcohol and tobacco, it is a politically charged topic with literally tons of money attached to it, and it will be bloody.
 
If marijuana use is legalized in your state, you are no longer an " unlawful user"....

The Form 4473 is a federal form, and therefore its questions are regarding federal laws (I believe). That being the case, even if use of marijuana is legal in your state, until federal law changes you are still an unlawful user. You can still be charged by federal authorities which means that it is still unlawful.

Federal law is still the highest in the land. What these states are doing is not being less restrictive than the federal government, they are legalizing something that is deemed illegal.

These states are sticking their necks out, and I am waiting to see how the federal government responds.
 
powder said:
If marijuana use is legallized in your state, you are no longer an " unlawful user"....
Nope, your absolutely wrong about that. I laid it all out in post 11. Under federal, marijuana can not be lawfully used or prescribed. Any person using marijuana, even if legal under state law, is an unlawful user of a controlled substance under federal law.

powder said:
...Individual States have the Authority to be LESS restrictive than Federal Laws, but NOT MORE restrictive. However, they then also subject themselves (The State gov't.) to punitive Federal discipline, for lack of a better phrase, IE Highway funding withheld, etc....
And that is also incorrect and an over simplification of federal preemption.

If federal law has "occupied the field", it will supersede state law overall. But in general, otherwise state law may be more restrictive. For example, In some States requirements for firearm possession and/or transfer are more onerous than required under federal law.

The practice of the federal government to fund, or withhold funding, is another matter. That is a way for the federal government to assert authority over matters that are outside its constitutional power to regulate directly. So since the federal government may not directly set national highway speed limits, it conditions its funding of state highways upon States setting certain speed limits.
 
Really. Let's use that theory to the age of consensual sexual relations: Federal vs. individual states.

If Federal law were the highest law in the land, that all states HAD to abide by, there would be no "medicinal marijuana" dispensaries in 17 states today. Correct? The DEA would be just busting and locking down every single dispensary as it opened.

Going back to post #11, I see the first point is to state that state's laws are irrelevant? Also, within post #11 what are you referencing, when, and which is your personal opinion?
 
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