Colt 1878 D.A. Philliapine Commerical Mod (small trigguard)

[roninrlm]

On a recent trip to a local Gun Show I bought a Colt 1878 DA. The pistol was just exactly like a 1878 Philliapine Mod in every way except that it had a "Small" trigguard and no "U.S." stamp on it. The pistol still has a super strong trigger spring (for the military primers), RAC mark on frame and cylinder. On page 401 of Wilkerson's book "Colt's doubble action revolver model of 1878" it describes this pistol as a Civilian Model 1902. Anyone ever see one of these? How Rare are they? Are they Rare? Also anyone have a idea as to the value of this type of pistol?

Ronin

 

[Old Fuff]

Colt sometimes used left-over or rejected-but-referbished military parts to make commercial revolvers. Apparently what you have is a regular (small trigger guard) model 1878 revolver with a military inspected frame.

These are by no way common, but they occasionally do show up. They may have some increased value to some collectors, but not much otherwise.

You might consider ordering an historical letter from Colt and see what it says, but that's an expensive way to go.

 

[roninrlm]

Thanks for the help !!!! Anyone have any ideas how many Colt made like this? Also, it has two sets of "Serial" numbers> One set is the standard Colt numbers at the bottom of the Grip and the other (I am assuming is assembly numbers) are on the loading Gate, frame, and cylinder.

I am thinking that the ole pistol is interesting enough to perhaps letter. Any ideas on that process?

Ronin

 

[9mmfan]

Someone's gonna say it, so I might as well be first.

I am deeply saddened and a little hurt that you have not included pictures of your new acquisition.

Good day to you, sir!

BTW, enjoy your new piece, sounds downright tasty. Are you going to shoot it?

 

[Old Fuff]

Also, it has two sets of "Serial" numbers> One set is the standard Colt numbers at the bottom of the Grip and the other (I am assuming is assembly numbers) are on the loading Gate, frame, and cylinder.

You'd assume correctly. Also remove the stocks (going very carefully - they are easily cracked or chipped if stressed) and you may find the same number on the inside of one of both panels.

I am thinking that the ole pistol is interesting enough to perhaps letter. Any ideas on that process?

Log onto www.coltsmfg.com/CustomerServices/ArchiveServices.aspx and follow the instructions. Be aware that they don't come cheap, and the military association may have not been mentioned in their shipping records. They can tell you what distributor or dealer they sent it to, how many guns were in the shipment, and on what date.

Anyone have any ideas how many Colt made like this?

I suspect not many, as the Model 1878 was not a regular in the U.S. Army's inventory, and the only contract I know of was a special order for 4,600 (so called) Model 1902 revolvers that had an oversized trigger guard and trigger for the Philippine Constabulary so they could pull the trigger with 2 fingers.

A very few might have been rejected by government inspectors for minor reasons. In such cases Colt would replace the rejected piece, and then use it in commercial production after correcting it. Unfortunately I don't think they bothered to keep specific records.

I am deeply saddened and a little hurt that you have not included pictures of your new acquisition.

Some members are not in a position to upload pictures for various reasons. However if you use a search engine (Yahoo, Google, etc.) and the key term "Colt Model 1878" or "Philippine Model" you should find all kinds of pictures.

Are you going to shoot it?

I sure hope not! This revolver is over 100 years old. If you should happen to break a part - some of which are very delicate - replacements are not easily obtained or not available at all. Qualified gunsmiths who might be able to repair one can be counted on the fingers of one hand, with several left over. They're services come at considerable cost. Is there any good reason to risk a valuable historical relic just to go BANG! ? :banghead:

 

[roninrlm]

To the person who commented on the (No Picture). Want to see a picture of the pistol---I WOULD BE GLAD TO--- But I can't get it to work for me. I am dealing with the after effects of Cancer and get flustered really quick also have no feeling in my hands or feet.

I would be glad to send you the picture if you would post it for me or help me with getting set up so I can post pictures.

Thanks
Ronin

 

[Jim K]

It is commonly thought that the large trigger guard and long trigger were either 1) for use by Philippine natives who had to use two fingers to pull the trigger or 2) by troops in Alaska for use with gloves.

Apparently neither is true. The Army wanted a .45 Colt caliber double action revolver c. 1900 and the only one available was Colt's New Double Action Self Cocking, aka the Double Action Army or (to modern collectors) the Model 1878.

But the Army balked at the very heavy trigger pull and complained (correctly) that no one could hit anything firing the gun DA. That was before any had been sent to the Philippines or even tried by Filipinos. Colt's solution was to lengthen the trigger for greater leverage, which of course meant enlarging the trigger guard.

But I have both variations, and will testify that whether the trigger is short or long, the trigger pull is still horrendous and any target smaller than the inside of a barn is very hard to hit double action. I will agree that those guns are fragile and complicated (though not as bad as the Model 1877) and should be considered collectors' items, not using guns.

Incidentally, after production ceased, Colt had some cylinders left over. They cut cylinder stop notches in them and used them on Single Action Armies, thus creating the "long flute" SAA's.

Jim

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

Colt's manufacturing motto "We will use any and all parts no matter what they were originally made for if we can make it fit. It will greatly confuse the poor b******d's who 100 years from now try to figure out what we did" . I must say they carried out this mission statement to a T. They are experts at it having started doing this in the percussion days.:banghead::banghead:

 

[9mmfan]

Ouch. Tough crowd.

Yessir, I know some folks can't upload photos, and many simply prefer not to. A little intramural ribbing seemed to be the custom in these situations. It really makes no difference to me one way or the other. I certainly didn't mean to ruffle any feathers.

Ronin, your situation is unfortunate and I send good thoughts your way. Glad to see you are hanging strong. If you would like me to post the pics, I will happily do so. I can PM you my email address if you like. If you would prefer not to, that's okay too. Your gun, your business. It does sound pretty cool and I hope you enjoy it.

Now if everyone will excuse me, I'm going to go sit quietly in my room and think about what I've done.

 

[Jim K]

FWIW, I can find no record indicating that that gun ever was assigned a military model number, either 1878 or 1902. AFAIK, it was never adopted by the Army, just purchased as an expedient, as was done from time to time with other guns that were never adopted or given a model number. The "Model 1878" is a modern term, to distinguish it from other Colts. I can find no record of the term "Model 1902" but that does not mean it was not used. Colt used and re-used certain names, like "New Model" and "Colt's Double Action" so collectors began to use the year of introduction as an informal model number; rarely were those names/numbers used by Colt, though they sometimes were the military model number (e.g., Model 1909 or Model 1911).

The "Model 1878" was in production for commercial sales long before the Spanish American war and had been evaluated by the Army in the 1880s and rejected, in part because of the hard trigger pull, in part because it offered no real advantage over the standard Model 1873 (the Army designation of the SAA).

 

[EnsignJimmy]

On a recent trip to a local Gun Show I bought a Colt 1878 DA. The pistol was just exactly like a 1878 Philliapine Mod in every way except that it had a "Small" trigguard and no "U.S." stamp on it. The pistol still has a super strong trigger spring (for the military primers), RAC mark on frame and cylinder. On page 401 of Wilkerson's book "Colt's doubble action revolver model of 1878" it describes this pistol as a Civilian Model 1902. Anyone ever see one of these? How Rare are they? Are they Rare? Also anyone have a idea as to the value of this type of pistol?

Ronin

Colt made something like 54,000 Model 1878s. What you have was probably a late-run 1878 made with leftover parts from the Philippine Constabulary contract.

And yeah "super strong spring" was the default condition for these guns. And it wasn't just for military primers. They were always like that, since primers of the late 1800s were hard, insensitive, things that took a lot of force to set off. If one assembles BP rounds and fires them (and these are strictly black powder only guns) out of an 1878, the modern primers will look like someone murdered 'em with an ice-pick.

Depending on the condition, it's probably a $1000 to $2000 gun. Less if it's been refinished or if it's been shot loose (which happens a lot with these. The two big points of wear on these guns are the hand and cylinder bushing; and the action is designed in such a way that the gun doesn't lock up right if either of these two parts are substantially worn,) and possibly much more if it's in really, really good shape.

 

[goon]

I checked this discussion hoping to see a pic of an old Colt. Someone dropped the ball on this one (but I'm not naming any names roninlrm).

 

[Old Fuff]

From post #5:

Some members are not in a position to upload pictures for various reasons. However if you use a search engine (Yahoo, Google, etc.) and the key term "Colt Model 1878" or "Philippine Model" you should find all kinds of pictures.

 

[Jim K]

Forgive if you have seen this before, but I always like to include it in any discussion of those revolvers:

THE SIDEPLATE SCREW HAS LEFT HAND THREADS. Trying to unscrew it the wrong way can ruin the screw and the sideplate!

Jim