OneSevenDeuce
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- Aug 5, 2014
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Combat Engineer,
Post pics when you get back!
Post pics when you get back!
Colt 1903 or Browning 1910
- Thread starter lincen
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lincen
Member
I know a little about addictions. My Makarov collection reached 16 before it was reduced to an even 10. FEG handguns are down to 14.
The 32's are growing rather quickly. Started with an Astra Constable which is a very sweet shooting handgun. Added two FEG's, two Ortgies, one Sapnish "Bufalo", and added the Beretta Tomcat this past weekend. I am powerless but I do have a direction and limited resources.
I do have several modern handguns for range and carry but do enjoy these fine made steel handguns( and some alloy frames) the most.
The 32's are growing rather quickly. Started with an Astra Constable which is a very sweet shooting handgun. Added two FEG's, two Ortgies, one Sapnish "Bufalo", and added the Beretta Tomcat this past weekend. I am powerless but I do have a direction and limited resources.
I do have several modern handguns for range and carry but do enjoy these fine made steel handguns( and some alloy frames) the most.
Vodoun da Vinci
Member
Historically agreed. I just like the way the 1903 "does it's thing" better than the 1900 but they were clearly designed by the same genius and one could hardly go wrong with either pistol if he is a .32 aficionado.
Or both.
This last Pocket Hammerless I picked up from 1919 was the cheapest and is the best shooter I own of any pistol, modern or antique, in any caliber I own and shoot. It's only weakness is it's sights which are so small they are useless....still, in rapid fire point shooting this 95 year old gun is the most accurate pistol (and reliable!) at 21' - 30' I own.
Can't wait to send this one out for the Hard Chrome and Street Tune when the 1924 '03 gets back home!
VooDoo
Next time you have one of your "03's" field stripped notice they're is a part inserted into the frame around the area of the magazine well and feed ramp.
this is a combination cartridge guide and ejector. Browning did much the same on his 1892 and '94 Winchester lever action rifles.
In the pistol they help guide the cartridge as it moves out of the magazine into the chamber, and it add reliability, by making the process less dependent on the magazine lips alone. This is part of the reason for the Pocket Model's remarkable performance.
this is a combination cartridge guide and ejector. Browning did much the same on his 1892 and '94 Winchester lever action rifles.
In the pistol they help guide the cartridge as it moves out of the magazine into the chamber, and it add reliability, by making the process less dependent on the magazine lips alone. This is part of the reason for the Pocket Model's remarkable performance.
andrewdl007
Member
I also got bit by the .32 bug when I inherited a French .32 war bring back from my grandfather. I think the 1903 is the most beautiful pistol I have ever seen yet I have never fired one. I did once hold a Colt 1908 .380 and it fit perfectly. Love the 1910 as well, I plan on getting a couple of each before my time has come.
Combat Engineer
Member
"Combat Engineer,
Post pics when you get back!" [OneSevenDeuce]
Back from the range. It has been a long time since I shot multiple 32ACPs. Was shooting 7,65 Fiocchi, 73 gr, 149 ft lbs m.e. Lukewarm ammo, suitable for range, but for carry prefer S&B 190 ft. lbs. m.e. which cuts deeper. Of course Buffalo Bore is hotter at 220 ft. lbs. m.e. A .32ACP with the right load is a decent stopper because of its mild recoil and subsequent ability to place quick accurate shots.
Pictured below (with a few targets) are from left to right,
Row 1: a French Unique, ca. 194X?...A Spanish Ruby, ca. 191X?...a Walther PP, ca. Feb--March 1945, no markings at all, one of the last ones made during WW2.
Row 2: a M1903 Colt, ca. 1917... a S&W M30, square latch, 195X? shoots/ejects .32ACP just fine... a Walther PPK, ca. 1935 - the other great CCW
Row 3: a M1914 Mauser, date unknown, odd looking but high quality... a Walther M4, ca. 1915, groove sight channel, ejects brass to the left, so you can catch the empty cases in your left hand, and lastly a nice Art Deco CZ 27, postwar, ca. 1947.
All of the pistols are capable of 1" groups at CCW distances, except for the CZ which shoots buckshot 6" groups...guess it was made on a Monday. In the upper right is a 1" group.
These pistols fall into the category of collectibles, tho the M1903 Colt and PPK are certainly capable. The PPK is still made... who knows, Colt recently brought back the Mustang, perhaps they will do likewise with the M1903.
Post pics when you get back!" [OneSevenDeuce]
Back from the range. It has been a long time since I shot multiple 32ACPs. Was shooting 7,65 Fiocchi, 73 gr, 149 ft lbs m.e. Lukewarm ammo, suitable for range, but for carry prefer S&B 190 ft. lbs. m.e. which cuts deeper. Of course Buffalo Bore is hotter at 220 ft. lbs. m.e. A .32ACP with the right load is a decent stopper because of its mild recoil and subsequent ability to place quick accurate shots.
Pictured below (with a few targets) are from left to right,
Row 1: a French Unique, ca. 194X?...A Spanish Ruby, ca. 191X?...a Walther PP, ca. Feb--March 1945, no markings at all, one of the last ones made during WW2.
Row 2: a M1903 Colt, ca. 1917... a S&W M30, square latch, 195X? shoots/ejects .32ACP just fine... a Walther PPK, ca. 1935 - the other great CCW
Row 3: a M1914 Mauser, date unknown, odd looking but high quality... a Walther M4, ca. 1915, groove sight channel, ejects brass to the left, so you can catch the empty cases in your left hand, and lastly a nice Art Deco CZ 27, postwar, ca. 1947.
All of the pistols are capable of 1" groups at CCW distances, except for the CZ which shoots buckshot 6" groups...guess it was made on a Monday. In the upper right is a 1" group.
These pistols fall into the category of collectibles, tho the M1903 Colt and PPK are certainly capable. The PPK is still made... who knows, Colt recently brought back the Mustang, perhaps they will do likewise with the M1903.
Attachments
I have both 1903 Colt 32 and 1910/55 Browning 380 pistols. I like them both but if have to choose, the Browning is a much more desirable pistol. It's more compact and points easily plus the 380 seems like a better round than the 32 to me.
OneSevenDeuce
Member
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2014
- Messages
- 178
CE great collection!
Vodoun da Vinci
Member
Nice collection of mouse guns!!
As far as the Pocket Hammerless being reintroduced I'd be one guy standing in line but I'll not hold my breath. I have been buying up "orphan" .32 Colts and making them like new again. I can't stop...even my Dad is now addicted when I let him shoot one I picked up built the same year he was born.
I do love the little classic .32's!
VooDoo
Combat Engineer
Member
Yo, OneDeuceSeven --
Thanks for the kind words. Apologies for the picture, on the camera viewer it looked bright and clear, but after posting it looks dark. 2 of my faves are not pictured: J.P. Sauer & Sohn and Steyr 32s.
VooDoo --
Nice to know someone is on a one man mission to save the world's M1903s. Prefer Walther M4s here ...they are incredibly accurate and have such slender grips (not so with the PPK which btw is a better gun) which makes them perfect for just about any size hand, Kahrs are kinda that way. Of course, should Colt reprise the 1903 it will likely come back in the form of a M1908... in .380ACP!
Very interesting that your most accurate gun is a 1919 Colt M1903. General Patton was a pistol competitor and a crack shot, once fired 2 bullets thru the same hole with his M1903, and as you know, the M1903 was John Browning's choice for carry. Bad guys liked them too: Bonnie Parker, Al Capone, John Dillinger, to name a few.
Saw a nice Browning 1900 the other day... if only the price was a few hundred less...
Thanks for the kind words. Apologies for the picture, on the camera viewer it looked bright and clear, but after posting it looks dark. 2 of my faves are not pictured: J.P. Sauer & Sohn and Steyr 32s.
VooDoo --
Nice to know someone is on a one man mission to save the world's M1903s. Prefer Walther M4s here ...they are incredibly accurate and have such slender grips (not so with the PPK which btw is a better gun) which makes them perfect for just about any size hand, Kahrs are kinda that way. Of course, should Colt reprise the 1903 it will likely come back in the form of a M1908... in .380ACP!
Very interesting that your most accurate gun is a 1919 Colt M1903. General Patton was a pistol competitor and a crack shot, once fired 2 bullets thru the same hole with his M1903, and as you know, the M1903 was John Browning's choice for carry. Bad guys liked them too: Bonnie Parker, Al Capone, John Dillinger, to name a few.
Saw a nice Browning 1900 the other day... if only the price was a few hundred less...
toivo
Member
I have no experience with the Browning, but I have a Colt 1903. All I can say is that when I pick that pistol up, I feel a "Yesssssss!" coming on. It just feels so right in my hand.
I also have the .32 bug. My current .32 roster is Kel-Tec P32, Bersa Thunder in .32, CZ-83 in .32, and a Hege AP66. I had a CZ-50 at one point, but I needed two fingers to pull the trigger in double action, so it had to go. Eventually I'd like to add a real PP (the Hege is sort of a clone) and my Holy Grail, a SIG P230 in .32 ACP.
I also have the .32 bug. My current .32 roster is Kel-Tec P32, Bersa Thunder in .32, CZ-83 in .32, and a Hege AP66. I had a CZ-50 at one point, but I needed two fingers to pull the trigger in double action, so it had to go. Eventually I'd like to add a real PP (the Hege is sort of a clone) and my Holy Grail, a SIG P230 in .32 ACP.
IIRC, the "father" of the Colt Model 1903 was the FN Model 1903. Made in an effort to compete with the German Luger, and chambered in the 9mm Browning Long, the FN M1903 was adopted by only a few nations, Sweden being the most notable.
But Colt wanted a pocket auto pistol; their M1903 Pocket Hammer model in .38 ACP was just too big. So JMB scaled down the FN M1903 to more compact and more pleasing proportions and the Colt Model M was born.
Browning took one of the first Colt M1903's to Belgium, but FN was not interested at that time, with the Model 1900 still selling well. Later, when FN wanted a more modern pocket pistol, Browning gave them the Model 1910.
So 1903 was definitely a big year in the gun world (don't forget the Springfield Model 1903 rifle), and applying that model year to a variety of guns can be confusing.
Jim
But Colt wanted a pocket auto pistol; their M1903 Pocket Hammer model in .38 ACP was just too big. So JMB scaled down the FN M1903 to more compact and more pleasing proportions and the Colt Model M was born.
Browning took one of the first Colt M1903's to Belgium, but FN was not interested at that time, with the Model 1900 still selling well. Later, when FN wanted a more modern pocket pistol, Browning gave them the Model 1910.
So 1903 was definitely a big year in the gun world (don't forget the Springfield Model 1903 rifle), and applying that model year to a variety of guns can be confusing.
Jim
Combat Engineer
Member
You're right, its confusing.
My cloudy memory, some years back, a number of Husqvarnas came on the market, however IIRC they were re-barreled to 9mm short (.380). Word of mouth was that they had problems (FTFs) so I passed. Not sure if they were the FN M1903 or what?
Had I realized the paternal connection, I would likely have picked one up, as they were reasonably priced.
Recently picked a Colt M1903, from of all places the LGS, which constantly surprises with their older items and very reasonable prices, perhaps I'll spot a good 'father' in 9mm Browning Long, which I think will run with cut down 9mm Largo brass.
Thanks for the info.
My cloudy memory, some years back, a number of Husqvarnas came on the market, however IIRC they were re-barreled to 9mm short (.380). Word of mouth was that they had problems (FTFs) so I passed. Not sure if they were the FN M1903 or what?
Had I realized the paternal connection, I would likely have picked one up, as they were reasonably priced.
Recently picked a Colt M1903, from of all places the LGS, which constantly surprises with their older items and very reasonable prices, perhaps I'll spot a good 'father' in 9mm Browning Long, which I think will run with cut down 9mm Largo brass.
Thanks for the info.
bangswitch
Member
Yeah, she broke Clyde out of jail using one she had taped to her thigh.
Not sure she'd get away with that today, though.....
Dframe
Member
My 03 was made in 1932 and is a delight to shoot. Wouldn't trade it for anything.
Hi, Engineer,
Yes, those guns were the FN Model 1903, made by Husqvarna under license from FN. They didn't rebarrel them to .380, they just drove a ring into the chamber to take up the extra space. Some of the rings (chamber adapters) came out, and of course the guns won't work with .380 without them. (If restoring the gun to 9mm Browning Long, the recoil spring has to be replaced; it was cut as part of reworking the guns to the lower power .380 ACP.)
The 9mm Browning Long is a semi-rimmed cartridge, really a shortened .38 ACP. By the time Browning was asked for a more powerful round fot the Colt pocket model, he had learned better from Luger and the .380 ACP is supported (headspaced) on the case mouth, doing away with the semi-rim. (The .380 model is commonly called the Model 1908 by collectors. Colt never used those date designations, and called both calibers just the hammerless pocket model.
Jim
Yes, those guns were the FN Model 1903, made by Husqvarna under license from FN. They didn't rebarrel them to .380, they just drove a ring into the chamber to take up the extra space. Some of the rings (chamber adapters) came out, and of course the guns won't work with .380 without them. (If restoring the gun to 9mm Browning Long, the recoil spring has to be replaced; it was cut as part of reworking the guns to the lower power .380 ACP.)
The 9mm Browning Long is a semi-rimmed cartridge, really a shortened .38 ACP. By the time Browning was asked for a more powerful round fot the Colt pocket model, he had learned better from Luger and the .380 ACP is supported (headspaced) on the case mouth, doing away with the semi-rim. (The .380 model is commonly called the Model 1908 by collectors. Colt never used those date designations, and called both calibers just the hammerless pocket model.
Jim
Combat Engineer
Member
Hello Jim:
Well, using a metal ring as a chamber adaptor makes me laugh. Many moons ago I tried the same thing with an Astra 400 to get it to use 9mm para, rather than using the harder to find 9mm Largo. Thought it was a hairbrained scheme and only a fool like I would try this, but ... it worked, sorta. Afterwards, I cleaned and checked the barrel chamber and the metal collar was gone. So it must have shot a number of 9mm para without the collar/ring chamber adaptor... probably held by the extractor (not good) so it was back to using Largo.
Have a M1911/12 Steyr-Hahn 9mm pistol that is chambered in 9mm para, as you know most of the Steyr pistols came chambered for the longer 9mm Steyr cartridge... hmm, will have to take a careful look at the chamber to see if there is a metal collar/ring adaptor in there.
Thanks for the info.
PS: For folks who like the 32ACP pistol cartridge, it can also be fired out of any .303 chambered rifle when using a special chamber adaptor, it works well and is quite accurate. ( i.e. Lee-Enfield)
Well, using a metal ring as a chamber adaptor makes me laugh. Many moons ago I tried the same thing with an Astra 400 to get it to use 9mm para, rather than using the harder to find 9mm Largo. Thought it was a hairbrained scheme and only a fool like I would try this, but ... it worked, sorta. Afterwards, I cleaned and checked the barrel chamber and the metal collar was gone. So it must have shot a number of 9mm para without the collar/ring chamber adaptor... probably held by the extractor (not good) so it was back to using Largo.
Have a M1911/12 Steyr-Hahn 9mm pistol that is chambered in 9mm para, as you know most of the Steyr pistols came chambered for the longer 9mm Steyr cartridge... hmm, will have to take a careful look at the chamber to see if there is a metal collar/ring adaptor in there.
Thanks for the info.
PS: For folks who like the 32ACP pistol cartridge, it can also be fired out of any .303 chambered rifle when using a special chamber adaptor, it works well and is quite accurate. ( i.e. Lee-Enfield)
lincen
Member
Well to go full circle on this thread, I pulled the trigger (pun intended) and now have a Colt 1903 headed to my FFL. It was made in 1923 or 24 and has original grips, magazine, and has about 80% of the original bluing. I just wanted a good shooter for the first one. May be looking for a better looking one down the road. Thanks for all of the input.
The Steyr-Hahn pistols in 9mm Para were (AFAIK) rebarrelled by the Germans during WWII and the slides are marked "08" to indicate the 9mm cartridge, Model 1908. The Germans also replaced any broken flat coil recoil springs with round coil springs; that made the pistols more reliable.
Jim
Jim
Depends on what you want them for
I have a COLT 1903 Pocket Hammerless and a BROWNING 1910/1955. The COLT is a .32ACP and the BROWNING a .380ACP. Beyond that, I really like them both.
The COLT is the more accurate and is easier to shoot because it is MUCH larger and a few ounces heavier. This was called a pocket gun, but not by today's standard. It is a holster gun, plain and simple. It has small, but still usable sights and the safety is on the small side as well, but I can shoot out to 25 yards without any loss of accuracy.
Oh, original COLT magazines are very expensive!
The BROWNING is a much more compact weapon and you can actually pocket it if you have a good pocket holster. Again, the safety lever is too small to count on for COCKED AND LOCKED.
Along with being smaller and lighter, it has LOW DRAG SIGHTS. The rear sight is a grove along the top of the slide with a small nib of a front sight. It WILL NOT CATCH ON ANYTHING, but gives you little to aim with. It is still an accurate gun at close range and is the one I would choose to carry as a pocket gun.
Both are very well made and completely reliable as long as you avoid wide mouth hollow points. My 1903 will feed FIOCCHI jhp and WINCHESTER Siltertips with 100 % reliability, but not 100% with FEDERAL Hydra Shoks.
The BROWING has only shot ball and REMINGTON jhp, but has been 100 % as well.
Both became obsolete when WALTHER introduced the PPK, but are still fun guns to shoot. If I were to carry either one, it would be with the chamber empty and a full magazine.
Jim
I have a COLT 1903 Pocket Hammerless and a BROWNING 1910/1955. The COLT is a .32ACP and the BROWNING a .380ACP. Beyond that, I really like them both.
The COLT is the more accurate and is easier to shoot because it is MUCH larger and a few ounces heavier. This was called a pocket gun, but not by today's standard. It is a holster gun, plain and simple. It has small, but still usable sights and the safety is on the small side as well, but I can shoot out to 25 yards without any loss of accuracy.
Oh, original COLT magazines are very expensive!
The BROWNING is a much more compact weapon and you can actually pocket it if you have a good pocket holster. Again, the safety lever is too small to count on for COCKED AND LOCKED.
Along with being smaller and lighter, it has LOW DRAG SIGHTS. The rear sight is a grove along the top of the slide with a small nib of a front sight. It WILL NOT CATCH ON ANYTHING, but gives you little to aim with. It is still an accurate gun at close range and is the one I would choose to carry as a pocket gun.
Both are very well made and completely reliable as long as you avoid wide mouth hollow points. My 1903 will feed FIOCCHI jhp and WINCHESTER Siltertips with 100 % reliability, but not 100% with FEDERAL Hydra Shoks.
The BROWING has only shot ball and REMINGTON jhp, but has been 100 % as well.
Both became obsolete when WALTHER introduced the PPK, but are still fun guns to shoot. If I were to carry either one, it would be with the chamber empty and a full magazine.
Jim
kBob
Member
Quick note on chamber rings. Some folks also used them to allow the French 7.65 Fr service pistols to digest easier to find .32ACP. My understanding is they used a ring that was simply the last little bit of a .30 carbine shell case and that they worked. Another of those wish I'da guns.
As to the Colt vs. the Browning......the colt makes me think of some 1930's PI or a Bogart movie and the Browning makes me think of some European uniformed police fro the same era. Colt for me please....since I DO know how to whistle though I never cared much for Paris (never see it in January) where in the mid seventies the Police carried Manhuran Walther PPks in .32. In fact in 82 the German Police were still converting from .32 mostly in PP autos to various 9 silly meters.
Of course since that time period humans have evolved in to a more bullet resistant form so folks will make fun of which ever you choose........
-kBob
As to the Colt vs. the Browning......the colt makes me think of some 1930's PI or a Bogart movie and the Browning makes me think of some European uniformed police fro the same era. Colt for me please....since I DO know how to whistle though I never cared much for Paris (never see it in January) where in the mid seventies the Police carried Manhuran Walther PPks in .32. In fact in 82 the German Police were still converting from .32 mostly in PP autos to various 9 silly meters.
Of course since that time period humans have evolved in to a more bullet resistant form so folks will make fun of which ever you choose........
-kBob
Another FWIW, it is often written that the 7.65 French Long is the same as the old .30 Pedersen cartridge for the "Pedersen device". The cases are identical, but the French bullet is longer and the round won't fit the Pedersen device magazine.
Jim
Jim
Rodman579
Member
i will take the Colt 1903. i have 3 of them and they are great to shoot and reliable. i have fed them everything under the sun from reloads to factory and never an issue. i have one 32 and two 1908s in 380. they are great guns in my opinion.
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