Colt 1908 Hammerless 380 for Carry/use

[Peter M. Eick]

A coworker asked me about a 1908 Colt 380 Hammerless as a modern carry gun and general use. I told him I would research it but why not just buy a Sig238 or Colt Mustang instead? He said it was a family gun and he wanted to carry it and use it in general.

So after reading a bunch of old threads, what I would summarize is the following:

It is a cocked and locked gun with a grip safety and slide safety

It needs to be checked that the safetys work and in particular the gun won't fire if the trigger is pulled with the slide safety on, and then clicked off.

It is heavy for a 380 and there are smaller lighter ones out there. (But he does not really care for them).

Magazines are hard to come buy (bad pun but true I guess)

It is a nice and smooth gun for pocket carry but a holster is required and the thumb safety is hard to kick off easily.

Very reliable. Well made, reasonably easy to break down and clean if you do it right.

Should be fine with modern 380 ammo. I would not pound thousands of round per year through it though. (He model is a polished blued steel one with a 4 digit serial number. I would presume it is about a 1910 product.)

So what are your thoughts? Have I missed any points? Any critical aspects that I should pass on? Would you carry it and if so why or why not?

Thanks

 

[Bovice]

A gun that old and with family history should be kept and fired maybe a few times a year. I would not carry that.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I have 2 of them in .32 ACP...one is 95 years old and I'll be shooting it with hand loads this weekend. It has had a lot of rounds put thru it and it's still accurate and tight at 95+.



The 1903 and it's brother the 1908 are real steel pocket guns and I know a number of folks who carry them. The earlier pistols are not drop safe and have no half cock on the hammer sear. Later version (I think after 1927 on the .32s) are as drop safe as a Colt 1911 series 80 I believe.

Both the .32 and the .380 are real shooters and my Wife loves hers as a front door grab it and shoot gun as it is really accurate and easy to shoot. Mags are hard to find but Numrich has them from time to time.

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/

I inherited my first gun and liked it so well I found and purchased a second one made in 1930. I hand load for them and shoot them regularly after having them checked out by a gun smith I trust. They are inherent good pointing and fun to shoot in .32 or .380 and if the gun is safe for your friend I'd not hesitate to consider it for concealed carry except for the drop safe issue.

VooDoo

 

[MikeJackmin]

The sights are tiny too, but if he likes it and shoots it well, why not?

I would be careful about getting a well-fitted holster, and making sure that none of the critical parts are too worn.

 

[mavracer]

With its size and weight, it's one easy gun to shoot fast and accurate. I have a 3rd year of production 1903 32acp that I have no problems carrying.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

The sights are tiny too, but if he likes it and shoots it well, why not?

I have to agree whole heatedly with this - the sights are virtually non existent. This is not a target pistol by any means although mine get oodles of attention at the range. People seem to spot right off that this is not something they see every day and it has a whole lot of Gangster "Bonnie and Clyde" appeal.

The target above were shot in triple/quadruple taps from 21' "point shooting" and the cards are 6"X10". I can almost cover the groups with my hand. These guns are capable of some pretty good shooting but sighted target shooting is not very impressive.

Even if one owns them and doesn't carry them they should still get to the range now and then as none of the pistols I have seen are "fragile" in any way. They are not particularly expensive nor are they rare really. Fine shooting specimens can still be had for &600 - $900.

VooDoo

 

[Old Fuff]

Prior to about 1927 (.32 serial 422000/.380 serial 66,000) the hammer face did not have a half-cock notch or ledge to stop the hammer if it followed down, and they’re was no way to safely lower the hammer on a loaded chamber.

So Colt corrected this by adding a notch, and at the same time changed the design of the firing pin so it was the inertial kind, similar to the system in the .45 Government Model.

For what should be obvious reasons many individuals with earlier pistols without the above improvements made it a practice to carry with the magazine loaded and chamber empty, and didn’t rack the slide until they thought it was necessary.

They are still fine guns, but a lot of water has gone over the dam since 1903 when they were introduced. Present day users should take the same precautions those proceeding them did.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Here is a Colt .32, 100 years old this year, at 25 yards. Your .380 might do as well.

[/URL][/IMG] .................. I can't remember, but I might have taken those two shots at the head separately.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Sharps,

Yours looks very similar to his from the one picture I have seen. So the general census is given the age and lack of internal extra safety's, it is fine to carry, just not loaded.

I will pass that along and let him decide if he wants to go cocked and locked with something more modern or go empty and historic.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

The problem (or the cool thing) about these Colt's is that there simply is no modern equivalent. Pocket sized, albeit large pocket sized, all steel (so we have some weight) and ergonomics from a different age when folks actually carried pistols in pockets. We pay folks lots of money to "melt" carry pistols, bob hammers, and make them rounded and smooth so as not to snag.

These pistols came from JMB that way already. I have not been able to find a modern equivalent or I'd buy it and leave my 1903's for special occasions.

They beg to be shot and feel like no other/point like no other in the hand...like a smaller 1911. Classic pistols from a master pistol designer. FWIW, the "newer" pistols with the half cock and mag release safety are safer to carry cocked and locked than the early versions. Just don't drop 'em...they do have a grip safety as well as the thumb safety but putting any of them in a waistband or dropping them is not healthy.

VooDoo

 

[mavracer]

Just don't drop 'em...they do have a grip safety as well as the thumb safety but putting any of them in a waistband or dropping them is not healthy.

Are there people that are in the habit of regularly dropping their handguns?
I understand protecting against mechanical failure, I'm just not sure I understand all the hand wringing about guns being drop safe.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I agree...I am concerned but it's not a "show stopper" for me that a gun will fire if dropped. We just need to be aware that it is a possibility and proceed and assume the risk as we use these items.

Some time ago a well loved and prominent gun writer dropped his Colt 1903 and lost his life. This kind of thing is a tragedy and I pass along the information so that folks can assess their personal risk and act/react accordingly.

I did some amount of tests with my guns and with a pair of guns that were functional but basically had the finish destroyed to the point of being parts guns. A gunsmith friend and I loaded them with primed but not charged cases and impact them in various ways to assess the danger in graphic terms. We never did get the post half cock modified pistols to discharge. I'd say they are very safe even if dropped.

The older designs can/will discharge if dropped on their muzzle primarily due to the hammer dropping or firing pin inertia...they also discharged if dropped squarely on the back of the slide (this is scary) but the amount of impact it took to do this was almost incredible and resulted in permanent damage to the gun. It would have to fall just right from a height onto concrete but it can happen.

Just so we are all on the same page. I put my 1930 Colt M in my pocket cocked and locked without a thought but the 1917 pistol I would never carry with one in the pipe. YMMV.

VooDoo

 

[toivo]

I agree...I am concerned but it's not a "show stopper" for me that a gun will fire if dropped. We just need to be aware that it is a possibility and proceed and assume the risk as we use these items.

Some time ago a well loved and prominent gun writer dropped his Colt 1903 and lost his life. This kind of thing is a tragedy and I pass along the information so that folks can assess their personal risk and act/react accordingly.

That was Steve Malloy. A freak accident, yes, but freak accidents happen.

Longtime S.W.A.T. Magazine Contributing Staff Member Steve Malloy was killed in a tragic shooting accident at his home on April 16.

As best as can be determined, Steve had a 1903 Colt pistol in his waistband and when he bent over to tie his shoes, the pistol fell onto the floor and discharged—the bullet struck Steve in the chest. He was found in the garage, apparently trying to leave the home to summon aid.

Hi wife Rhonda, daughter Stacey and son Ross survive him. Second Amendment proponents have lost a valuable ally. The firearms industry has lost an excellent writer. We have lost a friend. Rest in peace, Brother.

-Denny Hansen
-S.W.A.T. Magazine

--http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=6401.0

I have a pre-modification 1903, and I wouldn't carry it. I might carry a post-modification one, preferably in a belt holster.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

What is the probability that a dropped gun will fire at an angle when dropped just unlucky enough that it will hit the vitals of the one who dropped it? I am not a mathematician, but someone could probably take the geometrical angle probability and come up with a "one in X thousand or million" number and let us know. It might be less than getting hit by lightning...........

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Agreed but people do win lotteries with worse odds than that....

For me personally I am concerned that a dropped gun might not kill me but someone standing near. The first rule is to not drop guns the second is that I am responsible no matter what. My code does not allow me to make personal decisions that put other people at risk unless I have to.

The odds are astronomical that a dropped 1903 will discharge and kill or seriously injure but it has already happened. It would be wise to be conscious of it. It's the only reason I say anything about it being a proponent of the Colt 1903 as a carry piece.

Dropped guns can go off. I have never dropped one but it is not impossible or inconceivable to me no matter how improbable.

VooDoo

 

[fpgt72]

I have a 1903, very well made and it is what I carry. Personally I just can't stand the modern guns that are out there. I also have a wather model 8 as well for summer use.

I like guns of high quality, each of these feels like you are holding something that is strong, will last, gives you confidence that you hold something that you will trust your life with....modern guns just feel like cheap plastic toys.

If that is what he wants more power too him. Make sure he uses the gun and knows his way around it.

 

[Old Fuff]

The reason I posted the information in post #7 is that most Colt Pocket Model pistol owners are totally unaware of it. It may (or may not) illustrate a serious safety issue, but ignorence is never your friend. At this point it's up to each individual to make their own judgments.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I have already relayed to him the issue of carrying it cocked and locked. He understands that if (and note I say if) he carries it, he will carry it on an empty chamber and not cocked and locked.

I think he is coming around to a more modern design like a 238 or the like.

 

[5-SHOTS]

It lacks the most important safety: the firing pin block. I wouldn't carry one in condition 1. It's a condition 3 gun.

 

[SC Shooter]

The Colt 1903 and the 1908 are historically significant in my opinion as they were designed by John Moses Browining, who arguably is the most famous gun designer of all time. I purchased one as a collector, but now and then I use it as my carry weapon. It still is a quality weapon.

 

[cfullgraf]

I think he is coming around to a more modern design like a 238 or the like.

Sounds like a plan.

While the 1903 and 1908 are marvelous hand guns, i have one of each, I feel they should be retired from work and enjoyed on a lazy Sunday afternoon at the range.

As an aside, original magazines are probably as rare as hen's teeth, but I was able to find spare after market magazines for both of mine without too much difficulty

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Given that .380 pocket pistols seem to be outselling just about everything else for CCW I wonder why this pistol design or a modern variant has not been produced in .32 or .380. I'd think it'd sell like hotcakes despite a high price tag if done well retaining the original ergonomics with modern safety features, finish, and materials.

Took my .32 version to the range yesterday afternoon and it got more attention than I expected due to the accuracy (I hammered targets in rapid fire point shooting) from several women and 2 police officers training with backups. The heavier all steel construction makes even hot hand loads easy to handle even for folks of smaller stature.

Personally I'd retire mine to Show and Tell and the occasional range outing except there is *nothing* available new that really fills the same niche with this precision and ergonomics, balance, and natural point ability. most of the new stuff is teeny, tiny, toy pistols with short barrels and insufficient weight to make them a stable platform for smaller handed/smaller structured shooters.

VooDoo

 

[Old Fuff]

Today machined forgings are seldom seen in pistols. If you look down the magazine well from the bottom you may notice that the walls are very thin at some points. Because of this modern technology such as investment casting won't work well.

It is also a &^## to assemble. Add to this most of the "in" pistols are double-action/striker fired and have lightweigh polymer frames.

Last but not least, no one could produce this 1903 design at a price that was even close to the current guns it would be compeating with. Most of those that clamor for the reintroduction of older guns that were made from machined forgings and put together with hand fitting by skilled assemblers would quickly bulk when they saw the MSRP (Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price).

 

[Dframe]

While I love the old Colts, they could not be made at a competitive price in todays market.
Plastic guns are just SO much cheaper and easier to produce. Why do you think the manufacturers push them so aggresively?
I've never found the colts particularly difficult to field strip. But if you're unfamiliar with the guns action, I can see how they could be bothersome. Lining up the witness marks and finding the sweet spot to rotate that barrel can be a little tricky.
While the guns are very flat and snag proof I wouldn't carry one today. The lack of a manually operable hammer and a very small (and for me) awkward to operate safety religate the neat old Colts to fun range guns.

 

[Old Fuff]

I've never found the colts particularly difficult to field strip.

I haven't either, but I have had a fair number of detail stripped frames and associated parts that came in a bag because the owner got it apart, but couldn't get it back together.

Wm. Fairbairn, of Fairbairn-Sykes fame, was in charge of weapons and training in the Royal Shanghai (China) Municipal Police between the two World Wars. He solved the safety issue by having a special screw installed on the department's Colt .380 Pocket Pistols that blocked the safety in the "off" position.