Colt 1917 revolver help needed

[vanfunk]

Hello Gents:

Yesterday I acquired an excellent condition Colt Model of 1917 revolver from a local dealer. It came with a left-handed G&K holster, dated 1918, also in excellent condition. In my haste in the store I neglected to look over all aspects of the revolver's function, and now have two concerns I need some assistance with.

First: With the trigger pulled, either single- or double-action, the cylinder is locked up tight with that classic Colt "bank vault" style. However, with the hammer at rest and the trigger forward, one can turn the cylinder backward with little effort, on four of the six chambers. The bolt just slips out and allows the cylinder to turn, although it sinks deep into each bolt stop notch at each chamber. Any guesses as to what's going on? Springs seem forceful to me.

Second: What I think is the crane screw (on the right side of the frame) sits proud of the frame by about 1.5 mm. Taking the screw out, I see there's a little bushing or washer on it, that would appear to limit it's depth in the frame when screwed in. Is this an important clue?

I have not detail stripped the gun yet, as I do not know my way around these actions. It would seem to be an easy fix, but I don't know where to start. I really want to keep the revolver, as it's in easily 95% condition or better, with a pristine bore and little signs of firing. I am hoping that this is simply a case of improper re-assembly by a previous owner who didn't know what he was doing.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

vanfunk

 

[Old Fuff]

First: You really need to have someone who is experienced with Colt's pop the sideplate to see what's going on. Don't do this yourself unless you know how and have the right screwdrivers. Otherwise you may run into some unexpected consequences.

Anyway you can do the following: Cock the hammer and then release and lower the hammer while still holding back the trigger. Then see if the cylinder can be rotated as you described. If not, release the trigger and then see if the cylinder can be rotated. Check each of the six chambers.

What may be happening is that when you release the trigger and let it go forward, the rebound lever may be lifting the tail end of the bolt enough to reduce the spring tension to the point where the bolt ban be forced out of place. If a gunsmith that's knowledgeable about older Colt's is not available in your area (and there a very few of them left) I would contact the service department at the Colt factory. I suspect that a little adjustment of the related parts combined with a through cleaning may solve the problem.

Second: The screw should sit down to the point where only the dome on the head is above the sideplate. If it doesn't something is amiss, but I can't tell you what without having the gun "on the 'bench."

 

[Jim K]

There was no washer under that screw in the original gun. I suspect the screw might have backed out from recoil and someone put in a plastic lock washer to prevent that.

As to the cylinder rotation, check the top ("ball") of the bolt. Some folks stoned or filed it at an angle to improve bolt locking in rapid fire, but took off too much. Also check for dirt or gunk in the cylinder stop notches.

Jim

 

[dfariswheel]

This is known as "Cylinder roll-back".
A common cause is a worn or over-dressed bolt head. (The lug in the bottom of the frame window).

What happens if the head of the bolt gets worn or someone over polishes or shapes the head is, the cylinder lock notch is lower on the side that has the leade or ramp. Since that side is lower, an over-shaped bolt head will allow the cylinder to roll backward out of the locked position.

Exactly what the problem is can only be diagnosed by someone who knows the old Colt design action and can actually SEE the gun.

The cylinder retention system is a stud that fits into the frame and interlocks with a screw.
The screw has a flange or "skirt" that interlocks with a slot in the stud.
When the screw is loosened, it lifts the stud up out of the frame with it.
These screw and studs are often damaged by people tinkering with the gun who don't understand the design of the retention system and damage the skirt on the screw.

Again, someone who knows the design can tell by looking at the gun.

 

[Bobby Fett]

Does Colt still work on these old-timers?

Thanks

 

[vanfunk]

Thank you all for your help! I strongly suspect at this point that, as suggested, the bolt stud has been recontoured in a misanthropic attempt to improve the action. It indeed appears to be slanted, and all too easily allows itself to slip from the bolt notches in the cylinder. Sadly, with parts few and far between, and so few skilled tradesman left who can work on these actions, I think I'm going to take it back to the store for a refund. It's a pity, because it's in such nice shape cosmetically, and I've always liked the feel of the large-frame Colt revolvers. Anyway, I wasn't looking for a "project" gun, just another nice US military piece to admire and shoot once in a while. :banghead: Grrrrr. Shame on me for not being more dilligent and thorough in my pre-purchase function check.

Thanks again for the great advice!

vanfunk

 

[Old Fuff]

The top of the ball on the cylinder bolt should be slanted, because the cylinder is round. This is not to say that someone didn't make a good thing better.

At one time Numrich Gunparts Corp. (www.e-gunparts.com) had aftermarket bolts for sale. These were new, and not previously fitted to another gun.

Also in some cases, the bolt can be slightly modified so that the ball will come up higher. As a rule it doesn't take much unless someone did a drastic job on it.

Before dumping what seems to be a great find you need to get an informed opinion about what is causing the problem. On more then one occasion I've discovered that the action would work fine after the cosmoline that had dried into varnish was cleaned out.

 

[mainmech48]

FWIW, you might want to try and contact John Taffin through "Guns" or "American Handgunner" magazines' websites.

There are vanishingly few pistolsmiths left with the specialized knowledge it takes to tackle the older Colt DA mechanisims successfully, and some replacement parts are so extremely rare and hard to find that the only viable option is to fabricate one.

Mr. Taffin could put you in touch with someone who knows the design and could probably fix whatever's wrong with it. I recall reading at least two instances where he had old New Service-type Colt revolvers extensively repaired/restored/customized by a particularly skilled pistolsmith, but can't recall the fellow's name or business location to save my life at the moment.

FWIW, Mr. Taffin has been quite ammenable to polite requests for help or advice about problems with classic sixguns in the past, and the FMG Publishing folks would almost certainly pass your contact info along to him if you ask.

Hope this is of some help. If I'd made a rare and wonderful find like this, it's what I'd do.

 

[Gordon]

Cylinder and Slide in Nebraska could do anything you want to it!

 

[jjohnson]

Don't Give Up YET!

Right, the advice has looked pretty good from here. Whether you can enlist the help of someone like Taffin or Cylinder & Slide, I wouldn't go for the refund just yet. I own a pair of 1917s, one US issue in .45ACP and the other British issue (with Broad Arrow marks and all) in .455 Webley, later converted to .45 Colt (that was common).

Both are great fun to shoot. Neither of them's really quite good enough just to put away owing to collector's value. Both of 'em LOOK like they served under rugged conditions but were cared for. I don't reload "hot" for either of them, but they are just plain fun to take to the range.

I'd have a chat with the store owner - or put it in writing if you have to - that you've found certain problems and give him detail, and ask him to agree to a refund if the problems can't be resolved in a given period of time. That way there's no surprise if you take it back in September because it took you that long to get it looked at. Businessmen hate surprises.

Good luck.

 

[vanfunk]

Hello Folks:

Thank you for your continued support! I have decided to try to have the issue addressed, and found a older gent across the border in New Hampshire who knows his way around the old Colts. He's going to look at it and is quite confident that the repair is minor, based on its described symptoms. I really do want to keep it, as it fits so well with my martial arms collection.

It's funny, I've had several S&W 1917s. All of them, I would say, were more attractively finished that the Colt, and even fit my hand better. However, there's just something about the Colt, something intangible that draws me to it, and finds affection in a way that the S&W variety just doesn't.

Anyway, I'm going to see the man tonight after work, and hopefully the 90-year old revolver will have a new lease on life.

Thanks again,

vanfunk

 

[vanfunk]

Well, I just got a message from the nice gent across the border - gun's fixed! I'll pick the ol' girl up tomorrow morning and take her straight to the range for a workout. Report to follow...

vanfunk

 

[vanfunk]

Update

UPDATE:

WOW! Fast turnaround with my new best friend at the State Line Gun Shop in Mason, NH. I dropped the gun off on Friday, he called on Sunday and told me to swing by and pick it up. I was charged $35 to fix the timing issue, and now the old warhorse locks up like new. Me make happy dance

Thanks again,

vanfunk

 

[Old Fuff]

Today, few people know it, but these Colts were designed and made so that problems with timing could be corrected through adjustments rather then by replacing parts. I am not surprised at the outcome since you found an individual that knew what he was doing. Generally when you find one that can't be fixed within a half hour its because of owner abuse, or someone's basement shop action job. The New Service/Model 1917 wasn't as finely finished as a similar Smith & Wesson, but they are a darn rugged piece of machinery. Enjoy the one you decided to keep.

 

[Gordon]

Allthough I am 3000 miles away, I have heard good things about State Line Gun Shop. I stopped in there a couple years ago on a New England vacation. A good place to go!