Colt 1917 - Problem?

[Fat Boy]

A local gun shop has a 1917 Colt, and from all I can determine it chambers the 45 long colt. It has the US Army markings on the bottom of the grip frame.

When checking this revolver, I cock and lower the hammer, releasing with the trigger. Holding the trigger down after this step, I try (gently) to turn the cylinder. When I have done this with other revolvers, the cylinder may move a bit but hits a definite stopping point. On this big Colt I can feel the trigger start to move forward with pressure on the cylinder.

Is this normal, and if not, what would cause this failure?

Thanks!

 

[rklessdriver]

A 1917 should chamber .45 ACP with moon clips (NOT 45 Colt).

On a COLT such as a 1917 with the old styl lock work. The hand presses up on the cyl ratchet and forces the cyl to lock up hard (ie rotate over) against the bolt (cyl stop). Now if you try hard enough to turn the cyl on a COLT (with the trigger pulled) you could cause the bolt to deflect a little bit (or move sideways a little in it's slot in the frame) and that movement will be detected in the trigger.

If you keep the trigger pulled to the rear it should lock up with no preceptible movement in the cyl... but don't try to use your "gorrilla grip" to force the cyl into turning - you could cause un-due wear on the hand or cyl ratchet, espc turning it to the left (forcing the hand down) while pushing back on the trigger (forcing the hand up).

Just use a fairly light touch. If the cyl is locked up and has no "free movement" it is correct. If it cluncks back and forth (even the smallest bit) it is in need of replacement/adjustment of the hand, cyl ratchet or both.

If you can move the cyl easily but feel the movement has resistance - look hard at the slot for the bolt (cyl stop) in the frame. See if it's worn and the bolt moves side to side in it easily.
Will

 

[Oyeboten]

Some early production Cylinders would incidentally chamber .45 LC or the intended .45 ACP.

But, as rklessdriver rightly says, the Colt 'New Service' Model 1917 should be, and was meant to be .45 ACP and not .45 LC.


Also, sometimes Cylinder Bores were later modified by individuals to chamber both Cartridges.


Sometimes the Hand may be worn to where the Hammer falls with the Cylinder not yet fully indexed into final Battery/align, and, this is fairly easy to see if it is happening and easy-enough for an experienced Gunsmith to remedy.

 

[rcmodel]

A .45 ACP in half-moon clips and a .45 Colt have a huge differance in headspace requirements.
Rim thickness on a .45 Auto Rim, or clip loaded .45 ACP is .089".
On a .45 Colt it is .060".

Even if a .45 Colt round would chamber in one of the early straight bored Colt cylinders, it seems unlikely the firing pin would reach the primer with any degree of reliability.

Duel cylinder 1917's have been built that will fire both rounds.
But it is necessary to use a .45 Colt New Service cylinder and cut a clearence relief for the stop stud on the frame to allow it to open all the way.

rc

 

[Jim K]

A fair number of 1917 Colts were converted to .45 Colt just as rcmodel describes. While such a conversion would make little sense from the standpoint of ammunition availability or cost, some folks just didn't like the half-moon clips or thought that the .45 Colt was the "more powerful", a common idea in the 1920's.

Jim

 

[rogertc1]

My 1917 whill shoot 45ACP with 1/2 qnd full moon clips and also it chambers and shoots .45 Colt. It is a US Property parkerized revolver that my dad got in 1962 for $17.00 thru a NRA/Gov program.

 

[Fat Boy]

Not to drag this out; I was at the shop mentioned earlier today and had another chance to examine this gun; It is actually marked "1909"...

Having done additional research, I have learned that this gun chambered a "special?" variety of the .45 "long?" colt round although some have opined that it can chamber the typical .45 long colt round.

What would be your thoughts on this gun as a shooter?

Ask price is $700. Blue is decent, grips are something other than wood; plastic? Brown in color, with silver colt medallions...

Thanks!

 

[Oyeboten]

If bottom of Butt is stamped "Model 1909", then yes, these were .45 LC, and not .45 ACP.


Stocks should be plain smooth Walnut...and, Butt should have a Lanyard Loop/Ring.

 

[medmo]

To answer your original question... Yes, after pulling the trigger cycling the action and holding the trigger to the rear you might feel trigger play by trying to rotate the cylinder. The trigger is still connected to the cylinder via the hand and cylinder ratchet on a colt in this condition. If you release the trigger the hand is no longer connected to the ratchet.

 

[jdomin]

Check the inside of the cylinder for a ring halfway down if it has the ring is 45 acp no ring 45 colt or 455

 

[rcmodel]

Not necessarly.
The early Colt 1917's had straight bored cylinders.

S&W always chambered thier 1917's to headspace on the case mouth like a .45 auto, then Colt started doing the same thing.

(Not sure about the chicken or the egg timing on when they changed. But the first Colt 1917's didn't have headspace shoulders.)

rc

 

[unspellable]

New Service

The Colt New Service Model 1909 was chambered for a cartridge called the 45 Revolver. It was meant to take the 45 Colt as a secondary cartridge but point of aim will be a bit off. It's always been amazing to me that the 45 Revolver is such an obscure cartridge after having been the US Military's first line hand gun cartridge from 1909 to 1911.

The 45 Revolver differs from the 45 Colt in having a case a trifle longer and a wider rim like the original Schofield. It was loaded to match the 45 S&W or 45 Schoefield ballistics rather than the 45 Colt. I have a box of these cartridges and they will not chamber in my 45 Colt SA by Pietta as the wider rim fouls the ratchet.

The 1909 will work OK with the 45 Colt. In its civilian guise it was often so chambered. Just expect the front sight to be a trifle off. And DON'T use anything hotter than a factory load.

 

[BHP FAN]

I think it's official name is .45 auto-rim.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

Bingo unspellable. I had a 1909 and had problems with extraction as the 45 colt rim wasn't big enough to engage the extractor. I found out some years ago that the 1909 had it's own ctg. with a bigger rim, but would still chamber and fire a std. .45 ctg. Thanks to you I now know the name of the ctg.

 

[Oyeboten]

Interesting...never knew this about the M1909...


I'd always presumed it was plain old .45 LC

 

[Jim K]

Colt chambered the Model 1909 for the .45 Colt cartridge. But the Army found out that the small rim of the .45 Colt would jump the extractor, which naturally had not been a problem with the old SAA, which had a rod ejector.

So the Army made its own ammunition at Frankford Arsenal; this was the Cartridge, Cal. .45, Model 1909, and the Army issued only that cartridge for the Model 1909 revolver. The Model 1909 round had a larger diameter rim than the .45 Colt. The Army did NOT issue .45 Colt ammunition for the Model 1909, and the Model 1909 cartridge was never loaded by any commercial company or contractor. While dimensions of specimens vary a bit, the Model 1909 cartridge differs from the .45 Colt only in the rim diameter.

The use of the Model 1909 cartridge has no bearing on the older .45 Army or .45 Government in the old Colt SAA and S&W revolvers. The original round for the Colt Model 1873 was the .45 Colt, but when the S&W Schofield was also adopted, Frankford Arsenal began making a compromise cartridge that could be used in both revolvers. From that point, the Army issued ONLY that cartridge, even after the S&W revolvers had been phased out. From then until the end of the single action era, the Army never contracted for or purchased .45 Colt (aka .45 Long Colt) ammunition, but commercial companies did make the .45 Army (the compromise) cartridge. Some headstamps say ".45 Colt", but that is technically not correct.

So, even though the Army used two different revolvers originally chambered for the .45 Colt, it never actually issued that cartridge beyond 1875.

Jim

 

[rcmodel]

I think it's official name is .45 auto-rim.

The .45 Auto Rim had nothing at all to do with the 1909 Colt, or any of the .45 cartridges it could fire.
It could not fire the .45 Auto Rim.

That cartridge was introduced by the Peters Cartridge Company in 1920 for use in surplus 1917 revolvers chambered for the .45 ACP in half-moon clips.

The rim thickness on the .45 Auto Rim matches the thickness of .45 ACP ammo in half-moon clips. (.089" thick)

They will not chamber in any revolver chambered for the .45 Colt, or any of it's derivatives used by the Army. (.060" thick)

rc

 

[unspellable]

45s

The first in this line was the 45 Colt.

Next was the 45 S&W commonly referred to as the 45 Schoefield. It had a shorter case, a wider rim, a lighter bullet and a smaller powder charge. The wider rim interfered with chambering in the SAA.

Next came the 45 Government, sometimes referred to as the 45 Short Colt in civilian loadings. It was essentially. the 45 S&W with the 45 Colt's tiny rim. As stated above, after this point the army did not issue the 45 Colt. It's at this point that the 45 Colt began to be nicknamed the 45 Long Colt although that was never official or really correct.

Next came the 38 Colt. This made a sorry excuse for a 45.

In 1909 the 45 Revolver was introduced with a wider rim. Loaded only by the military arsenal. I've seen it referred to as the 1909 Colt 45 but it's officially the 45 Revolver.

Next came the 45 ACP. Original specs called for it to duplicate the ballistics of the 45 Government.

The 45 Revolver and the 1909 New Service were supposedly inspired by the Moro insurrection in the Philippines. The army pulled the SAA out of storage during this campaign. I don't know if they fed it the 45 Colt or the 45 Government, but I've always heard 45 Colt. The dirty little secret is that neither the 45 SAA nor the 45 Revolver in the New Service stopped charging Moros much better than the 38 Colt. The 30-40 Krag didn't do such a good job of stopping them either. Bottom line is that non-expanding bullets just aren't very good stoppers.

Fast forward to today. I've seen Fiocchi 45 Short Colt at a gun show. You can buy brass head stamped 45 Schoefield, but I don't think the rim is as wide as the originals. Starline made a run of 45 Colt with wide rims, but sold out by the time I found out about it. I hope they'll some day make another run. It's really the way to go for any swing out cylinder revolver.

Most 45 Colt revolvers have SAAMI spec over sized chambers, a hangover from BP days. This was corrected in the 454 Casull. Since the 454 chambers are tight you will occasionally find a 45 Colt that won't chamber in it. Also the reason they recommend 454 dies rather than 45 Colt dies.

 

[lawman1976]

Colt mod 1917 cylinder problem

I recently purchased a Colt Mod 1917 45 ACP. I noticed that when I fully cock the hammer, that the cylinder rotates about 98% of it's revolution. Then as you pull the trigger the cylinder completes it's 100% rotation and locks into place. I assume that this is not right and that the ratchet and hand have to be replaced?? Can anyone tell me?

 

[Old Fuff]

With the exception of the walnut stocks, the Model 1909 revolvers were made entirely out of regular Colt New Service commercial parts, and the chambers are identical to those made in .45 Colt commercial New Service revolvers.

The "special" cartridges were identical to the .45 Colt (sometimes called the .45 Long Colt) of that era except for the previously mentioned larger rims. They were loaded with a 250-grain round nose/lead bullet at about 825 FPS out of a 5 1/2" barrel.

Those that own a model 1909 that is in good condition can shoot it with any STANDARD .45 Colt load. Avoid the hotter stuff.

lawman1976:

Your model 1917 needs some attention, and maybe a new hand. I believe an aftermarket hand can be purchased from www.e-gunparts.com

 

[Fat Boy]

Interesting to see this thread surface again; I was in the shop recently and they still had this gun- in fact it has been "for sale" for maybe a year...wonder why no one buys it???

 

[Old Fuff]

---in fact it has been "for sale" for maybe a year...wonder why no one buys it???

1. It's priced at $700.

2. It's out of time and doesn't work right

3. The stocks are not the original ones.

4. They haven't the foggest idea of what it is.

Blessed are the ignorent...

 

[Jim K]

I agree, Old Fuff, blessed are the ignorant; I have gotten a lot of good deals from them.

"It's just some kinda fake. Tellya what, I'll let you have it for fifty bucks. Jeez, everybody knows Colt's factory was in Hartford, not Paterson."

Jim

 

[Old Fuff]

"It's just some kinda fake. Tellya what, I'll let you have it for fifty bucks. Jeez, everybody knows Colt's factory was in Hartford, not Paterson."