Colt SAA replica trigger pull question

[Goofball84]

I picked up a used Arminius 44 mag recently. When I took it out back and fired a few rounds through it I was getting 2/6 light hammer strikes and fail to fire. Send them around again and fired off fine. I tore the gun down to check the main spring and give it a good cleaning and oiling. Checked end shake etc. No issues found.

I put it back together and played around with it and found I could repeat the issue. If I pull the trigger real slow the hammer releases from full cocked position but catches/drags on the half cocked and safety notches causing the hammer to loose all it's force before hitting the pin. If I pull the trigger faster, it functions fine.

I'm not familiar with single actions. So, is this normal? Or do I have an issue in the trigger mechanism?

Thanks.

 

[1KPerDay]

Not normal

 

[jaguarxk120]

Had the same problem with a cap & ball revolver. The shooter gently pulling the trigger and it would catch on the half cock notch.

Funny thing it stopped doing that after I told him to pull the trigger!! If he didn't I'd kick his back side!!!

And charge him $250.00 for replacement parts.

PULL the TRIGGER!

 

[Goofball84]

I'm used to slow trigger pull target shooting. Never had a problem with my single action 22 or double action 357. It's not a big deal, I can adapt to the gun with faster pulls. Mainly I was curious if this was normal.

 

[MikeJackmin]

It's not normal, but it might be easier to tolerate than to fix.

 

[jaguarxk120]

If you are going to compare trigger pulls then make sure the guns you talk about
have the same lock work.
The single action 22 was it a Colt or Ruger?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

As has been stated, that is not normal.

I can probably tell you what the problem is, but first, does it have a very light trigger pull?

These are the lockwork parts inside a Colt Single Action Army. From your description of the hammer catching on the half cock and 'safety notches', I assume your lockwork parts are similar. The three notches on the hammer, from the top are the so called 'safety cock notch', half cock notch, and full cock notch. As the hammer falls in a revolver with a hammer like this, the sear (the top tip of the trigger) has to clear the 'safety cock' notch and the half cock notch.






In order for this to happen, when the trigger releases the hammer from the full cock notch, the tip of the sear has to rotate far enough to clear the other two notches as the hammer falls. Often times, in order to lighten the trigger pull, a kitchen table gunsmith will file the full cock notch to shorten the distance the trigger needs to rotate to release the hammer. The result is the sear no longer rotates far enough to clear the other two notches as they rotate past. By pulling the trigger hard, you are rotating the sear far enough to clear the other two notches before they reach the sear.

There are only two solutions that I know of to fix this problem. A new hammer, or an expert single action gunsmith will weld up the full cock notch and recut it so the sear moves the correct distance to clear the notches as the hammer falls.

Good luck finding a replacement hammer for that revolver.

I'm sure there are expert single action revolver gunsmiths out there who can do this job, I only know one and he is retired. In order to properly recut the hammer notch, the gunsmith has to use a special jig to recut the notch. Going after it with a file is not the proper way to do this and can result in a dangerous revolver that cannot be relied on to hold the hammer back at full cock.

Yanking the trigger hard is no way to shoot a single action revolver if you want to achieve any sort of accuracy.

For further bad news, there is an excellent chance that if you continue shooting the revolver, eventually something is going to break. I have an Uberti replica Model 1873 rifle that I bought used many years ago. Some clown tried the same trick on it. The sear kept catching on the 'safety cock' notch on the hammer. Eventually the notch broke off from repeated impacts, and I had to buy a new hammer to replace it. Not so tough finding replacement parts for Uberti products.

 

[jaguarxk120]

I did not say yank the trigger, but pull it.
Trying to shoot it as if it had a 2 ounce trigger is not the way!

 

[Goofball84]

Driftwood,
I think your spot on. Looks like the hammer may have been either modified, broken, or worn. But I cant say for sure as I haven't seen this trigger in new condition.

To fire without an issue, I just have to commit to a full pull. I don't have to "yank". With a slow squeeze, if I stop when the hammer releases, it will catch and stop on the safety cocked position. If I continue to squeeze it will release off that position. My slow squeeze was just fast enough to partially catch and slow the hammer enough that it was not getting a full primer strike.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Take another look at my photo of the Colt hammer. Notice there is an overhanging lip on both the 'safety cock' notch and the half cock notch. These lips are there to trap the sear and prevent the hammer from slipping off the notch. It appears the overhanging lip on the 'safety cock' notch on your hammer has broken off. So there is nothing to prevent the hammer from slipping out of the 'safety cock' notch. This pretty much bears out what I was saying. It was probably broken off by striking the sear repeatedly. The over hanging lip on the half cock notch looks like it might be partially missing too. Probably the result of a kitchen table gunsmith with a file working on the full cock notch.

Frankly, I have never seen a full cock notch that looks quite like that. Compare it to the full cock notch on the Colt hammer. It should be a simple ledge that allows the sear to slide out with as little friction as possible. Perhaps that is how it came from the factory, perhaps not, I have never seen a full cock notch like that.

You may be wondering why I keep putting quotes around the words 'safety cock' notch. Long experience has shown that with the hammer in that position, and a live round under the hammer, if the hammer is struck with enough force, either the 'safety cock' notch or the sear will break, driving the hammer forward with enough force to fire a cartridge. This has happened innumerable times when Colts and replicas were dropped and landed on their hammers. That is why Ruger started putting transfer bars in their revolvers back in the 1970s. Their is nothing safe about the 'safety cock' notch, that is why anybody who is familiar with these revolvers always only loads them with five rounds, and leaves the hammer down on an empty chamber.

Your hammer is even more unsafe. There is no overhanging lip to keep the sear in that notch.

I strongly suggest you NEVER lower the hammer on a live round. Only load five, and leave the hammer down on an empty chamber. The way to do this is to load one, skip one, load four more, then bring the hammer to full cock and carefully lower it. If you do this correctly, you will have an empty chamber under the hammer. Practice it until it is second nature.

Frankly, knowing what we know about your hammer, I would not shoot that gun at all.

You state that by stopping your squeeze when the hammer releases, the hammer does not function properly, but if you continue to squeeze after the hammer falls all is well. How in the world do you have reflexes that can stop your trigger pull just as the hammer releases? I certainly cannot do that. I will admit, that when shooting rapidly in Cowboy Action, I am probably smacking the trigger pretty smartly. But for slow, aimed fire, I squeeze the trigger until the gun goes bang.

Anyway, if it were mine, I would chalk it up to experience and not shoot that revolver until I could either find a replacement hammer, or find a gunsmith who can make it right.

 

[Goofball84]

Great advice. Thank you for taking the time to explain it all. I will keep my eye out for a replacement hammer and question the LGSs for leads on a gunsmith. I don't keep loaded guns in the house, just loaded mags. So safety should ok, just loading on the range when ready to start shooting.

Kind of kicking myself now. I passed at $800 on a Redhawk and then picked up this F.I.E. Arminius for $275 at a sportsman auction. I figured it was cheap enough to plink with in the back yard.

 

[ontarget]

I don't think you did bad at that price. Even after fixing/replacing the hammer you still have an inexpensive SA to enjoy for years to come.

 

[Goofball84]

Update:
I searched all over the internet for F.I.E. and Arminus replacement parts and the hammers I could find were way different styles than this one. So I went to the ebay and just scanned through pictures of 44mag hammer results and found one that looked similar. I took a chance and bought it for $48 including shipping (it happened to be from Slinksgunparts. It was listed as "JP Sauer Western Marshel 44 magnum".

When I received the hammer, I stacked it on top of mine and all the notches and holes lined up. I installed it and it was a perfect fit. Testing it (unloaded) I can not get it to fire from any position except full cocked. Half cocked and safety cocked will not move by only pulling the trigger. I think it is good to go. Seems to function perfectly.

Here is the JP Sauer hammer that I used.

Thanks so much for the help.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Good for you.

As you said, you should not be able to pull the trigger with the hammer in the 'safety cock' and half cock positions.

Don't even try. If you pull the trigger hard enough, you can break something. Trust me on this. Only pull the trigger from the full cock position.

Also, I strongly suggest you follow my earlier advice and NOT trust the 'safety cock' position of the hammer. Too many shooters have discovered the hard way that there is nothing safe about the 'safety cock' position. If you have a live round under the hammer, with the hammer in the 'safety cock' position, and the revolver falls onto the hammer, there is an excellent choice the sear will break, or one of those over hanging lips will break, and the revolver will discharge. Hopefully not in your direction.

 

[Jim Watson]

Frankly, I have never seen a full cock notch that looks quite like that. Compare it to the full cock notch on the Colt hammer. It should be a simple ledge that allows the sear to slide out with as little friction as possible. Perhaps that is how it came

I have seen that type of full cock on High Standard and Para Ordance hammers.
I think the intent is to give a fine engagement with less fitting prep work.

The replacement is conventional.