Colt: The Continued Soap Opera.

[alexander45]

Getting repetitive.

Let's try the Judgment From God angle for a while, just for something different.

I'll start it: Colt has pissed off a higher power and wrath floweth.
This bankruptcy filing is just the beginning, the Plagues Of Egypt follow.

Next?
Denis

This is quite likely do to them offering the holy 1911 with rails along with other such abominations such as chambering it in 9mm and 40s&w... the tides are turning and god will no longer alow such perversions to go unpunished colt is but the first of many!

 

[Old Fuff]

If Blank's getting into it (Mr. Save Winchester & Mr. Merwin Hulbert), I've just lost hope for Colt.

What Mr. Blank did was pitch a proposal to the bondholders and other unsecured creditors - if they're any.

What they do remains to be seen, but it looks less and less like Sciens is going to steamroller their plan through in the next 60 to 90 days.

For them, delay would be costly, and we have yet to see if Colt's proposal to increase production (to what?) and new stocking dealer program are successful in an overall declining market.

Also while some announcements may be forthcoming it seems unlikely they can bring any new products to the trade within the suggested time frame.

So Mr. Blank has kicked a door open and we'll have to wait and see if anyone walks through.

 

[Aragon]

I think now is the time for Colt to really take its hits. Let it get bloody. If it doesn't emerge from this with a significantly lightened debt load, it's going to be hobbled until it fails again.

Is there is way to engineer the ouster of Sciens and zero-out the debt they are owed? That would be the honorable thing to do giving their looting of Colt.

 

[Armybrat]

Whatever the case, I still am looking for a new production SAA revolver at a decent price.

 

[Old Fuff]

Whatever the case, I still am looking for a new production SAA revolver at a decent price.

Colt already did that. It was called the "Cowboy."

Didn't sell well and was discontinued. With limited resources I doubt they will try again - at least in the foreseeable future.

 

[DPris]

I didn't have much hope, but if Blank's trying to slide in, none now.

He's been looking for a gun to manufacture since 2006, with no real background in the gunmaking biz & a dismal track record so far.
Denis

 

[susieqz]

well, fuff, what else can they do but try to resurrect older models?
starting up new product lines needs to be done but will take time.
lots of us would pay more for a quality colt than a ruger.

 

[DPris]

Fuff,
If you do some Internet research, you can find references to Blank's efforts over the years.

Splashy Save Winchester campaign, when it was already a done-deal by FN & no possibility of keeping the Conn USRAC plant going.

May still be cached references to the gun company he formed next, which sold coffee cups online while he was looking for a gun to manufacture.

Much backstory on his efforts over two years to bring back Merwin Hulbert, which most of us knew was not going to happen & didn't.

When I talked to him sometime back, he was claiming to be working with Savage to bring back the 99. I'm sure you've all seen those new 99s on dealer's shelves.

You can look up the consortium he was involved with that drove A-Square into the ground, a holster company that never went anywhere, the Sharps Rifle Company that was intended to build AR-15s, had no connection whatever to any Sharps design, and was still a rifle company without a rifle last time I talked to their PR guy a year or so ago. They WERE making a couple AR-15 parts, no complete guns.

You can look up what that consortium did to the town of Glenrock, Wyoming during all this, with many promises & much talk of manufacturing there.

I have zero confidence in Michael Blank, and/or anything he's involved with.

Based on his past record, much of which is public, I see no ray of sunshine for Colt if he has any influence over the sale, purchase, operation, or finances of the company.

Denis

 

[Old Fuff]

I have no intention of being a shill for Mr. Blank. He is to say the least, controversial. I believe that at the moment the bondholders are represented by competent attorneys who have already made some appearances in the court in representation of they're clients position.

Emerald Capital Advisors proposal and offer was apparently not sought, but does seem to contain some valid arguments. As an outside observer I am interested in almost any alternative to that which was brought to the Bankruptcy Court on June 15th. It, so far as I can see would only eliminate Colt's unsecured debt and leave the current principals sill in charge.

My personal opinion is that as presented, the court is unlikely to accept it. Meanwhile the clock is ticking...

 

[Redstate]

I don't yet own a Colt... Of the 20 or so brands/manufacturers I've owned... Never had a Colt

Maybe I better get cracking before their already inflated prices go up after they cease operations

 

[Old Fuff]

well, fuff, what else can they do but try to resurrect older models?
starting up new product lines needs to be done but will take time.
lots of us would pay more for a quality colt than a ruger.

Colt used to have what is called an Archival Collection, which without going into finite detail would be necessary in the process of bringing older models or variants back into production. Without it the process would be much more expensive and time consuming. The collection also contained patent models, prototypes, and experimental samples. Pieces in it went back to before World War Two.

Several years ago they took this unique and irreplaceable collection and auctioned it off. :banghead:

Put frankly, they are in no position to resurrect anything and bring them back into production within a short (or possibly) long time period, even if they wanted to, which they don't. The current owners burned all the bridges.

Somehow Colt fans absolutely fail to understand or believe this.

 

[DPris]

Fuff,
Was not implying in any way that you're shilling for Blank, just stating why I have my doubts that he can bring anything beneficial whatsoever to Colt.

He's a Wall Street type who wants to be a gunmaker, and has a dismal record in achieving his goals there.
Denis

 

[susieqz]

fuff, i didn't know that. i was hoping for production of something like the woodsman which i would have bot instantly.
if they sold this stuff i see no hope for colt. everyone wants to own a colt but they have nothing to sell.

 

[Old Fuff]

Was not implying in any way that you're shilling for Blank, just stating why I have my doubts that he can bring anything beneficial whatsoever to Colt.

I am well aware of that. No offence taken. We are both moving in the same direction, but perhaps using different routes.

 

[Aragon]

Colt used to have what is called an Archival Collection, which without going into finite detail would be necessary in the process of bringing older models or variants back into production. Without it the process would be much more expensive and time consuming. The collection also contained patent models, prototypes, and experimental samples. Pieces in it went back to before World War Two.

Several years ago they took this unique and irreplaceable collection and auctioned it off. :banghead:

Put frankly, they are in no position to resurrect anything and bring them back into production within a short (or possibly) long time period, even if they wanted to, which they don't. The current owners burned all the bridges.

Somehow Colt fans absolutely fail to understand or believe this.

Don't confuse the contents of what amounted to Colt's former museum (which Donald Zilkha looted for $$$) with engineering drawings, process specifications (such as for bluing), gauges and models necessary to manufacture since discontinued models.

Apples and oranges.

Retaining those drawings, process specs, gauges and completed models would not have been expensive and their worth (should the company ever go to auction) is material.

 

[Old Fuff]

Don't confuse the contents of what amounted to Colt's former museum (which Donald Zilkha looted for $$$) with engineering drawings, process specifications (such as for bluing), gauges and models necessary to manufacture since discontinued models.

I'm not confused, but perhaps you are...

The Archrival Collection didn't contain what people would normally consider to be historical pieces. What it did have was examples relative to production models, experiment or proposed new product examples, patent models, commemorative proposals etc. For example, several mock-ups that eventually became the Python.

About the same time production drawing, blueprints, gauges, etc. which had no foreseeable future use, and couldn't likely be sold for meaningful money, were trashed. By this time it had dawned on the decision makers that they're was no way the models in question could ever be produced and sold for a reasonable price, given modern manufacturing economics.

Bluing processing procedures came from the Du-Lite Company that provided the equipment and chemicals (salts).

 

[Aragon]

I'm not confused, but perhaps you are...

The Archrival Collection didn't contain what people would normally consider to be historical pieces. What it did have was examples relative to production models, experiment or proposed new product examples, patent models, commemorative proposals etc. For example, several mock-ups that eventually became the Python.

Actually it sounds as if you're confused. The prototyes and various engineering models are important pieces of history but it's the data (engineering drawings, process sheets, etc.) and the completed/refined/ready for production models that are important.

About the same time production drawing, blueprints, gauges, etc. which had no foreseeable future use, and couldn't likely be sold for meaningful money, were trashed.

Poppycock. There would be absolutely no reason to dump the engineering drawings, process sheets, gauging (not production gauging BTW), etc. They would take up little room and they would indeed be worth a great deal.

Now was machinery and some tooling used to make DA revolvers and other model trashed? Yep. Much of it was junk anyway, it was terribly outmoded and it took a lot of space to store.

By this time it had dawned on the decision makers that they're was no way the models in question could ever be produced and sold for a reasonable price, given modern manufacturing economics.

Bluing processing procedures came from the Du-Lite Company that provided the equipment and chemicals (salts).

I suspect several Colt processes pre-date the existence of the Du-Lite Company. Like S&W, I suspect their finishing processes were proprietary.

 

[JRH6856]

Poppycock. There would be absolutely no reason to dump the engineering drawings, process sheets, gauging (not production gauging BTW), etc. They would take up little room and they would indeed be worth a great deal.

Worth a great deal to whom, precisely? And for what purpose? No one at Colt wanted to use them, no one outside Colt wanted to buy them.

What precisely did Colt have to sell that hadn't already been copied? What was left that could be made efficiently enough to sell competitively in today's market?

The pirates wanted loot. Engineering drawings that did not carry the portrait of a dead US president were not loot.

 

[Aragon]

Worth a great deal to whom, precisely? And for what purpose? No one at Colt wanted to use them, no one outside Colt wanted to buy them.

How do you know? I wonder what the original engineering drawings for the Colt Python would bring at Rock Island Auctions? Big bucks. In any event they weren't expensive to store and they would (actually are) tangible assets of the company.

What precisely did Colt have to sell that hadn't already been copied? What was left that could be made efficiently enough to sell competitively in today's market?

Just about anything that's made by Colt that has their name on it.

The pirates wanted loot. Engineering drawings that did not carry the portrait of a dead US president were not loot.

LOL! So you say. Not only would they be worth $$$ (even to mere collectors), the opportunity cost to store them would have been very little

 

[JRH6856]

LOL! So you say. Not only would they be worth $$$ (even to mere collectors), the opportunity cost to store them would have been very little

Some people don't hold on to stuff they personally have no use for. My father would throw away anything he didn't have a definite plan to use immediately . Me? I don't throw away anything because I might find a use for it someday.

Yes, collectors would probably love to have the drawings and papers, but I do recall reading at the time about Colt's new owners (Zilkha?) just trashing the papers and drawings instead of auctioning them because there was no perceived value in them. Wouldn't be the first time a bean counter proved he didn't know beans about anything but beans.

 

[Aragon]

Some people don't hold on to stuff they personally have no use for. My father would throw away anything he didn't have a definite plan to use immediately . Me? I don't throw away anything because I might find a use for it someday.

So? The original engineering drawings (likely pencil on vellum) would have great value not only as collectables but as hard data should the guns (or similar ones) ever be put back into production.

There's also the issue of not costing anything to store.

Yes, collectors would probably love to have the drawings and papers, but I do recall reading at the time about Colt's new owners (Zilkha?) just trashing the papers and drawings instead of auctioning them because there was no perceived value in them. Wouldn't be the first time a bean counter proved he didn't know beans about anything but beans.

I'm sure they're still in Colt's Document Control System (and not their museum which was auctioned) along with finishing process instructions, metal heat treat instructions, etc., etc.

 

[JRH6856]

I'm sure they're still in Colt's Document Control System (and not their museum which was auctioned) along with finishing process instructions, metal heat treat instructions, etc., etc.

You keep saying you're sure they are there. But how can you be sure? Have you actually seen them? If not, why are you sure? It may make sense to you that they would be kept and no sense at all that they would simply be trashed, but I recall (and apparently so does Fuff) seeing reports that that is exactly what happened. Apparently because the owners had no plans to used them, assumed no one else would want them and saw no reason to keep them, even though it might cost them nothing to do so.

 

[evan price]

Colt's not going to be producing new DA revolvers. The sunk costs were paid by the LEO orders. Consumer guns were gravy. No mass orders = no new revolver in the style of the old Pythons.

It's time for Colt to just dissolve into bankruptcy and start over as a part of Cerberus or Freedom Group.

 

[HexHead]

Put frankly, they are in no position to resurrect anything and bring them back into production within a short (or possibly) long time period, even if they wanted to, which they don't. The current owners burned all the bridges.

Somehow Colt fans absolutely fail to understand or believe this.

The Colt fans that keep whining about them bringing back revolvers are delusional. They act as if there aren't any out there to buy. You can buy any Colt revolver on any given day, you just have to pay for it. They think if Colt brings back those classics they'll sell for Ruger money, which surely wouldn't be the case.

You want a Colt revolver, step up!

 

[wojownik]

It's time for Colt to just dissolve into bankruptcy and start over as a part of Cerberus or Freedom Group.

Ack ... good lawd no ... at least not Cerberus and Freedom . Some other strategic buyer or kill it off entirely. Colt in the hands of yet another vulture investor? That would just be the frying pan to the fire.